Clingy IRN

[jmlw7]

Hi all - does anyone have any advice on how to handle a super clingy birdie? Remy is almost a year but we've only had her since April and she has become super duper clingy. Like, really clingy, like she cant even hang out on her playgym on the kitchen counter while one of us goes to the fridge. She squawks really loudly to show her displeasure and flies to us, on us, whatever... While we love her and we are happy she is healthy, maybe we have spoiled her and made her super attached to us? Either that or breeding season REALLY REALLY SUCKS!

We bought two shower perches so we can stick her on mirrors and windows and whatever near us and have toys all over the house that she will play with usually if we are in the same room. But she really doesnt want us leaving her sight and if we leave for longer than 2 minutes, she will stop whatever she is doing to follow us.

Normally this wouldnt really bother us as its kind of cute, but she is starting to do that in the same room. Usually when we are on the couch watching tv, she is happy playing somewhere for awhile and comes over every so often to hang out with us. Now its literally she wants to be ON us every second, even if we pet her its like she wants something more. We are totally confused. She seems.... restless...? like she wants something but cant decide on what it is.

Any advice? If the answer is she is bored, does anyone have advice of more (yes more we have like a million) foraging toy ideas or something, she really is going nuts! Maybe we should feed her less so she has less energy? seriously... We'd feel a lot better if someone said its an age thing, since she is still a baby.. but still...

[Skyes_crew]

Have you tried to harness train her yet? Maybe you could do that and start taking her out for free flights to get some of her energy out. Or......

You could try my newest project I'm working on. It's a series of pieces of PVC wrapped in that clingy medical tape.The kind that's on shower perches. We call it vet wrap here. I'm building a city lol. Actually I saw a picture and sent it to a friend and he did up a drawing for me. Anyway, if you build it around the living room and attach food bowls and toys she may never get bored the thing I love about this concept is that when they get bored you can take it apart and move the pieces around to make something else. Just an idea

[ellieelectrons]

When I went to Pamela Clark's session, one thing she talked about was giving your bird "projects" to do (e.g. A basket full of things to empty onto the floor, bits of yucca wood to chew up, a sunflower seed wrapped in newspaper). It would be interesting to see a list of project ideas for out of the cage. Another thing she said is that having your bird on you all the time is encouraging it to develop a pair bond with you, which isn't healthy, so I think it's good that you are looking to change that. I have perches for my birds in all the rooms we hang out.

Project ideas anyone?

Ellie.

[ellieelectrons]

You might get some project ideas from these free e books: http://www.parrotenrichment.com/books.html

Ellie.

[InTheAir]

We move our triangle foraging toy into whatever room we are spending time in. Also a big piece of balsa wood that I drilled holes in to stuff treats. They are hung near his play gyms. We wrap most treats in paper. He loves shredding bottle brush bark, so he gets lots of bottle brush perches.
I also give him random treats when he is playing on his perches, I think that helped heaps.
Also doing lots of flight recalls between each other to ensure he gets lots of exercise.

[Skyes_crew]

Those are my go to books Ellie

[jmlw7]

Thanks all, I have that parrot enrichment site saved to my computer.. I reference it often. we do indeed have toys everywhere - meaning hanging on her shower perches, in every room, etc... Her favorite is a foraging toy that keeps her attention ONLY if there is a peanut in the shell in there. It keeps her occupied for a good 15 minutes. Otherwise, if we feel we dont want to give her nuts that day or something, forget it. No toy will hold her interest if we are not there with her, period. She needs to be near us at all times or else she will scream and scream and be super restless. We are running out of ideas. We are starting to take it personally, like she is unhappy and its really upsetting us. We feel like we've done everything we could think of and she seems to be getting more and more restless and bored. She is SO moody! She was an absolute angel last night when we came home from work. Today she was a clingy, screaming machine. It's actually affecting my day its all I can think about. Does anyone have any idea of what we are doing wrong? Maybe it's something so simple we arent thinking of but its really affecting us

[MissK]

This situation sounds horrible, and actually quite ironic to me. You see, the non-clingy, stand-offish reputation of the IRN was a big factor in my choosing this species. I really wanted an independent bird, and for the most part, that's what I got. I guess he isn't clingy like that because I didn't ever ask him to be that close to me?

Not that it's going to help you now. Hypothetically, I would say train her to tolerate independence, and the approach I would suggest would be rewarding for tiny increments of desired behaviour. It's a lot easier for me to say that since my bird isn't screaming. I do think you should stop leaving that door open when you leave, though, for the neighbors.

Wishing you some speedy help!
-MissK

[Skyes_crew]

Josie...I posted in the screaming thread for you

[ellieelectrons]

Josie, I think Applied Behaviour Analysis could definitely help. Pamela Clark offers it over Skype. I don't know how much it costs.
http://www.pamelaclarkonline.com/

I attended a very short workshop she gave on it, so I know the very basics of it. I can walk you through it if you want. It does require some work on your part though, so let me know if you want to try.

Ellie.

[InTheAir]

Breaking down the problem is a good idea, like Ellie suggests.


Do you have any treats you give her that she never gets except from your hand as a reward?

[jmlw7]

Hypothetically, I would say train her to tolerate independence, and the approach I would suggest would be rewarding for tiny increments of desired behaviour.

hmmmmmmmmm this sounds great, if only we had any clue how to train independence?

Josie, I think Applied Behaviour Analysis could definitely help. Pamela Clark offers it over Skype. I don't know how much it costs.
http://www.pamelaclarkonline.com/

I attended a very short workshop she gave on it, so I know the very basics of it. I can walk you through it if you want. It does require some work on your part though, so let me know if you want to try.

I do want to try, yes please. I think I will also send Pamela a note to see what she says and if she's seen this frequently before. It would be interested to see what ideas she comes up with.

Skye - you had a great idea, but unfortunately we dont have room or $ for another cage... maybe someday..

Today was interesting. She was in the bedroom with both us of, I went to the bathroom to wash my hands and as soon as I shut the door she called loudly, then screamed. I think Remy has separation anxiety... I dont know if its a baby thing or a female thing or what, but she seems restless when one of us leaves the room... she must always follow whoever goes down the hallway, its not just me. But she definitely screams as her contact call when we are not near her, especially me. Her contact call is coupled with screaming and its difficult to respond back because we dont want her to think we are responding to the scream itself. Last night she kept flying onto my back as I was sitting on the couch? She was sitting right next to me on the cushion, literally a foot away and apparently not close enough. Then my fiance sat down and she flew to his head. We are so baffled.

[MissK]

Remy is a flock creature. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect she wants company all the time, from her perspective.

I trained independent/less intrusive behaviour **IN A DOG** who was being too pushy about getting me out of bed in the morning. She was so committed to the idea that she would literally put her nose under parts of my body and attempt to flip me out of the bed. To address the situation, when she came to rouse me, I instead required her to lie down beside me. Eventually I got a dog who literally goes back to bed. Sometimes she needs the command (Roo, Go back to bed.) and sometimes she does it all on her own.

However, she was a dog who already knew what I wanted when I told her to lie down. And not a bird.

Good Wishes!
-MissK

[ellieelectrons]

Hi Josie

Firstly, I am not trained in this... so I'll do my best but I can't guarantee any results. When using Applied Behavioural Analysis you simplify the problem somewhat just to make it easier to deal with. We don't think so much about parrot psychology just clearly observable behaviours. It's not that the psychology doesn't exist, it's just a way to simplify the problem to help try to come up with solutions. The other thing is that change takes time. Pam indicated 6-16 weeks.

Okay, let's get started. First thing I'd like you to do, is think of one specific incident where Remy has been clingy - don't generalise, just think of one specific incident that you can remember well. Then, write down:
1. What is the antecedent? What happened directly before the bird produced the undesired behaviour.
2. What is the undesirable behaviour?
3. What were the consequences of this behaviour? What happened directly after the undesired behaviour happened.

I'll give you an example of something that happened with Janey several months ago.
Antecedent: I tried to get Janey off my shoulder by dipping my shoulder towards her play perch.
Behaviour: She attacked my ear until it bled.
Consequence: Janey didn't get off my shoulder.

The other thing I'd like you to document is a pile of contextual information about Remy. Things to include are:
- information about Remy's environment: cage size, cage type, where cage is located, where Remy spends her time
- any health and medical history you have for Remy
- diet
- sleep and rest
- bathing
- any behavioural issues you've had with her in the past
- training: does Remy have any training, what sort of training?

It's a lot of work to document all that... but when you've done it, we can start looking at it.

Ellie.

[jmlw7]

Remy is a flock creature. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect she wants company all the time, from her perspective.

I wrote to Pamela Clark per Ellie's suggestion and she said the same thing. That flock creatures tend to follow their flock everywhere they go ummm ok, but I dont see anyone else complaining about this behavior. Is Remy the only one? Or is it a girlie thing!

Hi Josie

Firstly, I am not trained in this... so I'll do my best but I can't guarantee any results. When using Applied Behavioural Analysis you simplify the problem somewhat just to make it easier to deal with. We don't think so much about parrot psychology just clearly observable behaviours. It's not that the psychology doesn't exist, it's just a way to simplify the problem to help try to come up with solutions. The other thing is that change takes time. Pam indicated 6-16 weeks.

Okay, let's get started. First thing I'd like you to do, is think of one specific incident where Remy has been clingy - don't generalise, just think of one specific incident that you can remember well. Then, write down:
1. What is the antecedent? What happened directly before the bird produced the undesired behaviour.
2. What is the undesirable behaviour?
3. What were the consequences of this behaviour? What happened directly after the undesired behaviour happened.

I'll give you an example of something that happened with Janey several months ago.
Antecedent: I tried to get Janey off my shoulder by dipping my shoulder towards her play perch.
Behaviour: She attacked my ear until it bled.
Consequence: Janey didn't get off my shoulder.

The other thing I'd like you to document is a pile of contextual information about Remy. Things to include are:
- information about Remy's environment: cage size, cage type, where cage is located, where Remy spends her time
- any health and medical history you have for Remy
- diet
- sleep and rest
- bathing
- any behavioural issues you've had with her in the past
- training: does Remy have any training, what sort of training?

It's a lot of work to document all that... but when you've done it, we can start looking at it.

Ellie.

Ellie - Pamela is having me fill out an assessment form probably similar to these questions. She mentioned it sounded like it's all hormonal behavior for Remy. Which leads me to believe that during the spring/summer, extra attention and training is necessary for her... and hopefully the fall and winter months she will chill out. Yesterday she was quiet ALL DAY long! We were so shocked... but probably had to do with her new squeaky tennis ball. I also had her outside in her travel cage, we sat on a bench for an hour or two. She was happy sitting there next to me but I was really tempted to let her fly and see if flight recall indeed works. I obviously didnt... but we did bring her to the Pet Store and I was tempted to let her fly there too but the ceiling beams were daunting. Maybe one day. Anyway, all of the out of ordinary distractions really helped with her screaming and clingyness. Did I mention she is a great car traveler? She sits on top of her travel cage and behaves herself the whole time we are driving. Doesnt fly or anything, although there are usually two of us in the car in case she gets curious and tries to fly around the car, one of us could put her away, but thus far, she is fine even for a couple hours drive.

Anyway, sorry I went off topic. Here are the answers to the questions. Should we do it this way? Or just wait to see what Pamela Clark says?

Clingy Remy:
1. Remy was playing on her play gym, when I walked away down the hall to the bedroom
2. She screamed at the top of her lungs and flew after me and landed on my head
3. I took her off my head, put her on the floor in the room her play gym is in.
This repeated several times, it stopped when she quietly followed me, flew past me and landed on the bed. So I let her stay there.

Contextual info:
- aviary flight cage - 32"x22"x62", in the living room, next to sliding deck door where we spend most of our time.
- vaccinated, tested, healthy... wings were clipped when we bought her, no health problems we know of
- since May mostly veg: romaine, broccoli, snap peas, green beans, spinach, carrots, peppers. fruit like apples on the weekends, 2-3 nutriberries daily, seeds and millet once a week. nuts only in foraging toys and training. once a month pomegranate, rice, tomato, corn, grapes. chicken bone once every two months. calcium perch but she barely uses it
- weekdays bedtime at 830pm, complete darkness around 10pm. wake at 7am. weekends, bedtime at 8pm, complete darkness around 10pm, wake at 9-10am
- 2-3 times a week we bathe her
- bluffing period when we first got her at 8 months. after training her to step up, the biting stopped and her wings also grew in.
- flight recall works well for both of us (currently training her to stay), only one turn around trick, she is tame with us but we are training her to be more social at home. well behaved in different surroundings (i.e., pet stores, vet, car, etc), territorial at home when strangers visit.

[ellieelectrons]

Glad you are getting Pamela to help. I'm sure she'll be great. I'll read through your post carefully tonight - got to go to work now.

Ellie.

P.S. Thanks for taking the time to write all that stuff!

[MissK]

All I heard was this:

but we did bring her to the Pet Store and I was tempted to let her fly there too but the ceiling beams were daunting. Maybe one day.

Dunno about where you are, but all our pet stores have automatic doors with patrons going in and out. Please don't tempt fate.

-MissK

[Skyes_crew]

I would be afraid she'd find a nice hidey hole to nest in and never come down. My nerves couldn't take that

[InTheAir]

I watched a video recently of someone free flying their grey without adequate preparation, it got a fright and was gone. I can find the link if you like. I cried watching it.
I am unsure how suitable a single ringneck would be for outdoor free flight. I wouldn't risk it with Nila, no matter how good he is indoors, there are just too many uncontrollable factors outdoors that may scare him. His instinct is very likely to override his training.

Our av recommends avoiding taking birds to visit petstores that have birds, as most don't test for pbfd or psittacosis or any other nasties. We only take Nila to the one that doesn't sell pets, only accessories.
Sorry if I sound a bit doom and gloom, just making sure you know the risks.

[MissK]

I would not ever think of flying my bird, even on a harness (As If he would do it anyway) outside. Here on the East Coast of the USA we are lucky to have wild hawks finding a way to make a living despite all the people also living here. I'm always surprised at how many of my friends and neighbors haven't got a clue that wild hawks are sharing their space. What a horrible thing it would be to discover a hawk is nearby as it makes its way off with your Ringneck!

-MissK

[ellieelectrons]

The basic theory with Applied Behavioural Analysis is that you look at ways to change the Antecedent and/or the Consequences in order to change the behaviour. The areas that you wrote about in context can be called "distant antecedents" and these can also be used to change behaviour. I may not have all of that right, but I hope it's close.

For now, I thought we might just look at some possible changes to Antecedents and Consequences. I think for Remy, any attention from you is a positive for her... so the fact that she keeps flying to you when you try to leave the room, that would indicate that you picking her up, putting her on the floor is something she most likely likes because she is getting attention... and I guess that she ultimately gets to be in the same room as you (when you let her sit on the bed) tells her that if she keeps trying to follow you, eventually she'll get what she wants, so the behaviour is likely to continue. I've got a few ideas for you to try - no guarantees they'll work.

1. Have a perching area for Remy in each of the rooms you spend time in when she is out of the cage. Before leaving the room have her step up and take her with you and put her on her perch. You can give her rewards for staying on her perch. You will need to introduce her to the perches in each room before expecting that she will be happy to sit on them, she may be scared of them at first.

2. If Remy lands on your head, instead of giving her attention, stop what you are doing (either stay where you are or go somewhere else and sit down). Be calm, don't pay her any attention, just wait until she gets off.

I don't like Janey on my shoulder because occasionally she will ear bite, so when she flies onto my shoulder (firstly I try to avoid it by ducking down or stepping to the side), I sit on a particular chair in our house, relax, put my head forward (mostly so my ears aren't near her beak). I don't talk to her or engage with her in anyway. It doesn't take too long before she either flies away or crawls down onto my arm/hand... which is when I start acknowledging her again.

3. Before you leave the room give her a "project" to do. If she is used to foraging, you could give her a sunflower seed wrapped in newspaper. This seems to entertain my birds for a bit.

Keep working on the Stay behaviour. I'd be interested to hear how you go about training it, I haven't had much success with it myself. Possibly I've been too lazy trying to teach it!

I'll give it some more thoughts and look through your context information some more and let me know if I have any other ideas. Others might like to chime in some more.

Ellie.

[jmlw7]

Dunno about where you are, but all our pet stores have automatic doors with patrons going in and out. Please don't tempt fate.

I know I probably will never have the nerve to trust a wild bird free flying out in the open air or big store like a pet store to ever return to me no matter how much I think Remy loves me or loves doing flight recall...

but its still an inner desire I feel to let her "free" sometimes.. not for any other reason than to just let her explore a big open area and have fun for a while. I will most likely never test it, but sometimes I feel like she really will come back when I call her. is that weird?

besides, she is a scaredy little girl. When I stood on top of the couch yesterday to see if she would fly that high onto me, she flew at me but landed near me instead because my finger was too high. Then I lifted her all the way up to the ceiling (we have very very high ceilings), and she got scared because it was so high and flew back down to the couch. Things like these make me feel like she would sit calmly on her travel cage in a wider open area, and if she got scared she would fly to me before she flew away to a strange area.

oh well... one can dream

[MissK]

I get it. I understand wanting the pet to have wild freedom. I wish I could turn my dogs out unfettered in the woods or the field. They'd love it. But, I know how that would go down, and I'm not willing to take the risk. So they go with me, on a 30 foot lead, and that's as close as they get. The bird gets to fly the living room, maybe one day soon the whole house. Sadly, for him, that's it. To keep it in persepctive, I remind myself how much more he has than before I got him, and I say That'll have to do. One more nail in the coffin of the idea keeping pet birds in the first place.

-MissK

[jmlw7]

1. Have a perching area for Remy in each of the rooms you spend time in when she is out of the cage. Before leaving the room have her step up and take her with you and put her on her perch. You can give her rewards for staying on her perch. You will need to introduce her to the perches in each room before expecting that she will be happy to sit on them, she may be scared of them at first.

The only two places she really wants to be on top of us are in the living room (right next to her cage and her things and a million perches are in the room), she literally just wants to be on us, so another perch wont work in the living room since she does fly from perch to perch and plays all over the room... and when she gets tired Im noticing, she wants to be on top of us somehow. She fell asleep on my fiance's knee once. When her perches and cage were right next to him. hmmm... the bedroom is the other place. She likes to run around the bed and growl at her toys. She wont stay on her perches in our bedroom for long unless she is going to nap.

2. If Remy lands on your head, instead of giving her attention, stop what you are doing (either stay where you are or go somewhere else and sit down). Be calm, don't pay her any attention, just wait until she gets off.

I don't like Janey on my shoulder because occasionally she will ear bite, so when she flies onto my shoulder (firstly I try to avoid it by ducking down or stepping to the side), I sit on a particular chair in our house, relax, put my head forward (mostly so my ears aren't near her beak). I don't talk to her or engage with her in anyway. It doesn't take too long before she either flies away or crawls down onto my arm/hand... which is when I start acknowledging her again.

Am I wimpy for hating her nails on my head? They are so long which makes it difficult to "let" her stay there til she gets off! (which is another topic in itself). Usually if there is a perch or boing nearby, I'll direct my head or shoulder or something to it and she will get right off, but I noticed she lands on my head or back or shoulder if my finger is not extended to her because she simply just wants to go with me.

3. Before you leave the room give her a "project" to do. If she is used to foraging, you could give her a sunflower seed wrapped in newspaper. This seems to entertain my birds for a bit.

This is the most successful strategy so far, but if she is aware we are leaving the room, she will interrupt herself and scream or follow us. Its like we need to sneak away. She really is like a toddler who doesnt like to be left alone. When we think of it that way, we are less annoyed, but if this behavior doesnt lessen in the fall/winter, we will most likely need to pay Pamela Clark for a full on training session so this wont be permanent for the rest of our lives with Remy.

Keep working on the Stay behaviour. I'd be interested to hear how you go about training it, I haven't had much success with it myself. Possibly I've been too lazy trying to teach it!

This is all with flight recall.. no luck yet - it really depends on her mood

Thank you so much Ellie!

[jmlw7]

I get it. I understand wanting the pet to have wild freedom. I wish I could turn my dogs out unfettered in the woods or the field. They'd love it. But, I know how that would go down, and I'm not willing to take the risk. So they go with me, on a 30 foot lead, and that's as close as they get. The bird gets to fly the living room, maybe one day soon the whole house. Sadly, for him, that's it. To keep it in persepctive, I remind myself how much more he has than before I got him, and I say That'll have to do. One more nail in the coffin of the idea keeping pet birds in the first place.

-MissK

I almost wish for an enormous empty gymnasium without beams on the ceiling or a massively empty aviary spanning across an entire field. sigh

[Skyes_crew]

If your harness train her you could work her up to flight recall with a long lead. That may be the closest she ever gets to "free" flight. It's sad but true. But once she's there, you can take her outside and let her fly on the aviator lead. They have youtube videos showing it. I think Claire has been working Nila up to it. It may be the next step for you and Remy. It's also something where Brian could get involved too. To begin on the lead you can have Remy go back and forth between the two of you. Gradually making the distances longer and longer. I'm not there yet with Skye, but I'm sure if you pm Claire she can answer some questions for you.

[jmlw7]

If your harness train her you could work her up to flight recall with a long lead. That may be the closest she ever gets to "free" flight. It's sad but true. But once she's there, you can take her outside and let her fly on the aviator lead. They have youtube videos showing it. I think Claire has been working Nila up to it. It may be the next step for you and Remy. It's also something where Brian could get involved too. To begin on the lead you can have Remy go back and forth between the two of you. Gradually making the distances longer and longer. I'm not there yet with Skye, but I'm sure if you pm Claire she can answer some questions for you.

Brian and I already do long flight recalls with Remy between the two of us. We are most likely going to purchase a harness, but Remy isnt yet used to our hands on her back unless she is getting petted. Any suggestions on how to get them used to our hands all over them?

[Skyes_crew]

That involves pushing her a little bit at a time beyond her comfort zone. Skye was a secondhand bird and not used to being handled that way either. To start, each evening I would take her out when it was that time right before they're really sleepy. I would bring her close to my body while also bringing my hand slowly around her back. I placed my palm over her back and slid my finger out from her feet leaving her stomach against my chest. Hold her there crooning to her softly. Run your hand repeatedly down her back and over her tail. Everywhere. As one hand is coming to the end of her body the other one starting from the top never giving her the chance to squirm away. I've been working with Skye on it for 5 months now. It takes time. But I can grab her from behind, give her raspberries on her tummy. Play with her wings and feet. They're things I never thought I would be able to do because I got her when she was 10 months old. I'm glad I did do it though, because I just found out that Skye is a female. It will make it easier to handle her in the long run. I don't fear her beak anymore.

[jmlw7]

That involves pushing her a little bit at a time beyond her comfort zone. Skye was a secondhand bird and not used to being handled that way either. To start, each evening I would take her out when it was that time right before they're really sleepy. I would bring her close to my body while also bringing my hand slowly around her back. I placed my palm over her back and slid my finger out from her feet leaving her stomach against my chest. Hold her there crooning to her softly. Run your hand repeatedly down her back and over her tail. Everywhere. As one hand is coming to the end of her body the other one starting from the top never giving her the chance to squirm away. I've been working with Skye on it for 5 months now. It takes time. But I can grab her from behind, give her raspberries on her tummy. Play with her wings and feet. They're things I never thought I would be able to do because I got her when she was 10 months old. I'm glad I did do it though, because I just found out that Skye is a female. It will make it easier to handle her in the long run. I don't fear her beak anymore.

I cant do that right now... Remy will think i am having birdie sex with her... maybe I'll wait until the winter

wait - Skye is a female???????????????????

[Skyes_crew]

Yeah kind of took my by surprise. The guy I got her from said she was a male. I had a DNA done back in March. Avian Biotech has been screwing up a lot lately. I scanned and faxed them the certificate from her original DNA results and they refunded me the money, but still. But maybe it worked to my benefit sort of because I wasn't so focused on the female hormonal issues. Who knows lol. But now I have a whole new set of issues. Skyes a female in a house full of male birds. Oh boy!!!!

[jmlw7]

omg!!!

welll..... welcome to the club Ms. Skye! Now you get to say good girl! What made you realize Skye was a girl?

[Skyes_crew]

I went to wake her up one morning and she hopped up on my hand like usual but this time she squatted, tipped her head back, pinned me and started clucking. It was too cute she'd never done anything else though closely related to female behavior so I never thought to question the results. But I think having hamlet next her is bringing out her hormonal side finally. She is a good girl though. Still seems weird to say it maybe ill be lucky and have a laid back female.

[MissK]

Weee, fresh worms!

Riff Raff says "Skye, you go girl!"

-MissK

[Skyes_crew]

The females are taking over...they are large and in charge

[ellieelectrons]

1. Have a perching area for Remy in each of the rooms you spend time in when she is out of the cage. Before leaving the room have her step up and take her with you and put her on her perch. You can give her rewards for staying on her perch. You will need to introduce her to the perches in each room before expecting that she will be happy to sit on them, she may be scared of them at first.

The only two places she really wants to be on top of us are in the living room (right next to her cage and her things and a million perches are in the room), she literally just wants to be on us, so another perch wont work in the living room since she does fly from perch to perch and plays all over the room... and when she gets tired Im noticing, she wants to be on top of us somehow. She fell asleep on my fiance's knee once. When her perches and cage were right next to him. hmmm... the bedroom is the other place. She likes to run around the bed and growl at her toys. She wont stay on her perches in our bedroom for long unless she is going to nap.

I think I may not have explained myself well here. I was trying to say that one option is that when you choose to leave the room to go to another room, take her with you but on your terms - don't make her fly to you because she thinks you are leaving her. Get her to step up and take her with you and then put her down on another perch area that she feels comfortable on in the next room.

2. If Remy lands on your head, instead of giving her attention, stop what you are doing (either stay where you are or go somewhere else and sit down). Be calm, don't pay her any attention, just wait until she gets off.

I don't like Janey on my shoulder because occasionally she will ear bite, so when she flies onto my shoulder (firstly I try to avoid it by ducking down or stepping to the side), I sit on a particular chair in our house, relax, put my head forward (mostly so my ears aren't near her beak). I don't talk to her or engage with her in anyway. It doesn't take too long before she either flies away or crawls down onto my arm/hand... which is when I start acknowledging her again.

Am I wimpy for hating her nails on my head? They are so long which makes it difficult to "let" her stay there til she gets off! (which is another topic in itself). Usually if there is a perch or boing nearby, I'll direct my head or shoulder or something to it and she will get right off, but I noticed she lands on my head or back or shoulder if my finger is not extended to her because she simply just wants to go with me.

No, not at all. My birds don't generally get on my head at all. They have on the odd occasion, but I can't remember the last time they did it now. It's one of my pet hates. Early on, I read that birds on the head was a dominance thing - I don't know what I believe about that, but I don't encourage it with my guys. The problems I have is with them on my shoulder when I don't want them to be there. I find that if Janey gets excited or worked up in any way on my shoulder, she is more inclined to bite ears. I also don't like to put my hands up to her to step up because I can't see her body language or her body position for that matter, so I'm more likely to get bitten on the fingers. What keeps coming back to me is that you get the behaviour that you reinforce. Therefore, something that you are doing is reinforcing her landing on your head... and I was wondering if what is reinforcing to her is the attention she gets from you when trying to get her off your head. That's why I was suggesting sitting still somewhere, paying no attention to her until she gets off, then pay her loads of attention. The hope is that in the long run, she won't find jumping on your head interesting any more.

I hope that makes sense.

I'm a bit short on time just at the moment. I'd like to spend more time looking at your contextual information as all I've commented on so far is really the Antecedent, Behaviour and Consequence information you gave. How are things going with Pam Clark?

Best wishes.

Ellie.

[InTheAir]

Nila went through a pretty annoyingly clingy phase too. As well as Ellie's suggestions, we had great sucess with food rewards whenever he stayed on a play gym for more than 10 seconds.
We have also been using treats to encourage him to like his cage more and he has started actually hanging out with the door open for very short stretches. Nila is super motivated by treats!
I'm not sure if his clingy thing was a passing phase that he was going through... he's pretty independent when we aren't responding now, like if we are on the computer. He still likes a human to nap on when he gets tired, or to be involved in any exciting activity, especially if it involves anything you don't want a parrot to chew! He does tend to go a bit mental with his contact call if we leave him alone in a room, despite the open plan house he can navigate around the rest of the time... we generally just step him up and put him on a play gym in the room we are going to.

[jmlw7]

I think I may not have explained myself well here. I was trying to say that one option is that when you choose to leave the room to go to another room, take her with you but on your terms - don't make her fly to you because she thinks you are leaving her. Get her to step up and take her with you and then put her down on another perch area that she feels comfortable on in the next room.

hmmm when we take her with us, we put her on the bed or on top of the drawers, and she is fine there.. and when we are showering, and she doesnt want to be in the shower with us, she hangs out on her shower perch or the tissue box on or near the mirror.. does that count? when we take her with us, we place her there and she is fine. but when we dont take her with us and she notices we are walking away, she will land on us if she catches up to us walking down the hallway.. does that make sense? Or.. if we are on the couch, she has free reign all over the room but chooses to hop onto our shoulder or backs because she would rather be on us than near us.

No, not at all. My birds don't generally get on my head at all. They have on the odd occasion, but I can't remember the last time they did it now. It's one of my pet hates. Early on, I read that birds on the head was a dominance thing - I don't know what I believe about that, but I don't encourage it with my guys. The problems I have is with them on my shoulder when I don't want them to be there. I find that if Janey gets excited or worked up in any way on my shoulder, she is more inclined to bite ears. I also don't like to put my hands up to her to step up because I can't see her body language or her body position for that matter, so I'm more likely to get bitten on the fingers. What keeps coming back to me is that you get the behaviour that you reinforce. Therefore, something that you are doing is reinforcing her landing on your head... and I was wondering if what is reinforcing to her is the attention she gets from you when trying to get her off your head. That's why I was suggesting sitting still somewhere, paying no attention to her until she gets off, then pay her loads of attention. The hope is that in the long run, she won't find jumping on your head interesting any more.

Honestly, I think Remy only lands on my head (shoulder/back is another story) when she has no where else to land because there are no perches there and I'm not extended my finger to her - i.e., hallway or kitchen. I dont have a perch in the hallway, so if she flies overhead and I ignore her, she will try to land on my shoulder but land on my back instead... or if my shoulder isnt accessible for some reason, she lands on my head. I dont think she cares where she lands as long as its as close as possible to me because she doesnt want me walking away and leaving her in the other room. So basically... I feel like I either have to take her with me every time to avoid having her fly faster than i walk and landing on my head.. (although the kitchen is another story god forbid I want to rummage through the fridge, she needs to see whatever im doing but I dont encourage anywhere in there for her to land, so she lands or tries to land on me). Or maybe I can anticipate her coming or listen for her wings and dive onto the floor! That wouldnt be reinforcing anything would it?

[jmlw7]

Nila went through a pretty annoyingly clingy phase too. As well as Ellie's suggestions, we had great sucess with food rewards whenever he stayed on a play gym for more than 10 seconds.
We have also been using treats to encourage him to like his cage more and he has started actually hanging out with the door open for very short stretches. Nila is super motivated by treats!
I'm not sure if his clingy thing was a passing phase that he was going through... he's pretty independent when we aren't responding now, like if we are on the computer. He still likes a human to nap on when he gets tired, or to be involved in any exciting activity, especially if it involves anything you don't want a parrot to chew! He does tend to go a bit mental with his contact call if we leave him alone in a room, despite the open plan house he can navigate around the rest of the time... we generally just step him up and put him on a play gym in the room we are going to.

I hope hope hope hope hope the clingy thing is a phase... Mating season is so strange.. we had her on her perch stuck onto the mirror all day yesterday when we cleaned our whole house. She ignored us completely.. couldnt care less about where we were or being left alone with her reflection. She sat there, preened, napped, made happy noises. Then became obsessed when we took her off and took the perch away because she wouldnt move from it at all. She was growling and screaming and becoming clingy all over again!

We are even finding ourselves stuck in a rut with trick training or using treats because she ONLY will do out of the ordinary things for nuts. And because we recently trained her to flip upside down, she has been consuming a few days of nuts and her hormones are going crazy. You are so lucky Nila is motivated by treats.. the only treat Remy considers a treat are nuts. Maybe apples.. but we are trying to avoid fruit too.

[InTheAir]

Have u tried fresh sprouts as treats? I've found them pretty high value to Nila, especially lentils. Is there something else she likes that you can remove from her normal diet?

Btw Nila always lands on us when we are going into the fridge or doing anything which might involve food. I think that's pretty standard parrot nosiness.
If you sort out her food motivation you could train her that she gets treats only when she stays on her kitchen perch. I did a similar thing with the biscuit tin when I got tired of hiding in the pantry to eat biscuits

Ummm after reading your posts I am wondering if perhaps Nila has just trained us to put up with his clinginess, he is pretty much like Remy! Lol He does play by himself when he's in the mood now though.

[ellieelectrons]

Mine are similar - although perhaps not quite as bad especially at the moment because they are interested in nesting more than they are interested in me. I think the other difference I have is that I have two birds. However, they will also fly behind me and land on me when they want to, especially if I go to leave the room.

As far as Remy goes, I think you can work on training the "stay" behaviour with rewards but other than that, I would probably just get into the habit of picking her up and taking her with you into a new room and putting her down where she feels comfortable whether that be a perch, bed or whatever.

I do sometimes duck out of the way when they try to land on me - Barbara Heidenreich maintains that you should try to train your bird to not fling itself at you when you don't want it to, but I have found this difficult to train in practice. To train that behaviour, though, I think you need to consistently get out of the way of the bird when they try to land on you (step to one-side, duck, etc.), constantly reward them for sitting on the appropriate perches you want them to sit on and reward them for coming to you when you all.

Ellie.

[InTheAir]

Ooppsy, both Dave and I agree that having a bird fly down and land on you whenever it wants to is one of the best things about having a bird in the house. .. I don't think we could give up unsolicited attention from Nila

Ellie: could you explain the reasoning she gave for this?

[ellieelectrons]

I think it's more a people thing than a "this is good for your bird" thing. I think it's just about having boundaries. It can be a problem having your bird fling itself at you at inappropriate moments, especially if you cannot get them to get off of you easily. I don't enforce this one at my house, however I don't really like it if Janey flings herself at me but I don't really mind if Charlie does it. Janey can be extremely difficult to get her off of you and she occasionally bites ears and will usually bite fingers if you attempt to have her step up when she is on your shoulder.

I think it was also about the bird knowing how to behave with guests.

However, I mentioned to show another point of view, I don't think it was supposed to be a hard and fast rule.

Ellie.

[jmlw7]

Have u tried fresh sprouts as treats? I've found them pretty high value to Nila, especially lentils. Is there something else she likes that you can remove from her normal diet?

Btw Nila always lands on us when we are going into the fridge or doing anything which might involve food. I think that's pretty standard parrot nosiness.
If you sort out her food motivation you could train her that she gets treats only when she stays on her kitchen perch. I did a similar thing with the biscuit tin when I got tired of hiding in the pantry to eat biscuits

Ummm after reading your posts I am wondering if perhaps Nila has just trained us to put up with his clinginess, he is pretty much like Remy! Lol He does play by himself when he's in the mood now though.

Lentils...? I havent tried fresh sprouts yet - do you cook them? Or serve them raw? Remy sometimes picks at red beans or white beans but doesnt eat them excitedly or anything. I actually do need more protein options so beans would be ideal if she likes them.

We havent had the chance to train Remy to stay yet.. its a work in progress. She gets so excited about flight recall then just wants to follow us everywhere, so this will probably take some time. We have become quite the 'duckers' lately. She actually now hovers over us when we duck, so when we put our finger up, she will land on that rather than our backs or heads when we are in the hallway.

I did notice that Remy gets VERY VERY clingy when she is tired. When we are on the couch and she keeps hopping onto my shoulder, I know its bedtime. Kind of weird, but I think she wants to sleep on my shoulder or something, next to my hair!

[InTheAir]

http://www.growveg.com/growblogpost.aspx?id=280

So it strikes me as kind of amusing that a good percentage of the newbie questions on here are asking how they can make their bird more like yours, little do they know how irritating it can be.

[Skyes_crew]

Isn't that the million dollar question??? The grass isn't always greener on the other side