What is the mutation where body is blue tail is violet?

sheyd · Post by **sheyd** » Sun Aug 04, 2013 3:36 pm

I did the test- (using an old feather)

first test- one part bleach to 3 parts water- no change
second test-one part bleach, one part detergent to 3 parts water- no change
third test- one part table salt to 3 parts water- no change

will retest today with another newer feather and see if there is a change.

sheyd · Post by **sheyd** » Sun Aug 04, 2013 7:02 pm

sheyd wrote:I did the test- (using an old feather)

first test- one part bleach to 3 parts water- no change
second test-one part bleach, one part detergent to 3 parts water- no change
third test- one part table salt to 3 parts water- no change

will retest today with another newer feather and see if there is a change.

no change (as expected) with another feather.

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Sun Aug 04, 2013 7:53 pm

Thanks Shey,

Your results are just as i expected. i used old feathers too.

Sky: now you see why more tests had to be done after yours?
There's something about your bird or water and if you do your tests with the feather/s from the breeder you know, we'll probably conclude what is causing the violet to show on your blue when wet.
I think it might be your bird, something more than just a blue.

Skyes_crew · Post by **Skyes_crew** » Sun Aug 04, 2013 8:24 pm

I also redid my tests today. I even went so far as to test the levels of chlorine in the tap water and the bottled water. I am currently waiting for the feathers to dry. I am still going to get another blue from my friend tomorrow, but I am going to redo the experiment this evening and video tape it and post it to YouTube for you guys to see. In the interim...here is a pic of the outcome of today's feathers

From left to right...detergent, sea salt, table salt....all using tap water

It wasn't just my bird though...it was also recios and the original posters bird too. So that's why we concluded it had to be a common factor in our water.

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Sun Aug 04, 2013 9:48 pm

Sky

Great work.

It wasn't just my bird though...it was also recios and the original posters bird too. So that's why we concluded it had to be a common factor in our water.

I did not realise the first pics of this post are not from your blue.
Recio's test did change the color but i did not realise his turned violet also.
Recio said:

I found that a normal blue tail feather was bleached with just detergent but not with only tap water (high quality tap water with little chlorine) ...

Recio can you confirm that your blue feather also turned violet?

Looking forward to seeing the video.

Recio · Post by **Recio** » Mon Aug 05, 2013 2:59 am

Hi,

Here are are results with blue tail feathers from the last year:

Tap watter .... bleached
Tap watter + salt .... bleached
Tap watter + detergent ... bleached
Tap watter + salt + detergent ... bleached

These results are quite unexpectables since I had previously noticed that just tap watter was not enough to bleach the feather several days ago.

At present I think that these results are due to the fact that those blue feathers are "old" feathers from my collection. I think that what we call "bleached" is just that the feather has lost its protective oil (old feathers) and it appears wet (I agree with Willy).

Why some birds show these wet feathers and not others? I think that this depends on the quantity of oil they produce. Oil is necessary to preserve feather integrity and flying capacity when it rains, but it is not so "necessary" for our birds in our aviaries, so perhaps some of our birds do not produce as much oil as others in their uropygial glands. Old feathers have lost their oil and are "easy to wet".

Is uropygial glan secretion different depending on different structural mutations? I do not know but, anyway, the presence or abscence of oil does not affect feather structure.

Feather structure is the same in green and blue feathers, so all these experiments could have been also made in green birds, with, a priori, the same results.

Why the purple colour in the first pic oppening this thread? As nalukaikamahine said, the colour in the pic does not really match what she sees in the flesh. The colour I can see "in the flesh" is more like a brownish colour than a purple.

Regards

Recio

Skyes_crew · Post by **Skyes_crew** » Mon Aug 05, 2013 9:49 am

Interesting that your tap water now has the same effect on your feathers. You may be right about the oil level in the feathers. I was looking back at the pic I posted above and the feather that was in the detergent is more evenly effected than the two with salt. So it may point to the salt taking a bit longer to break down the oil barrier. Even though my feathers were from this seasons molt, my bird lives inside, so his oil requirements are lower. As to the violet color...in person it's more of an eggplant color. But, as I mentioned, my bird lives indoors. I still believe that outdoor environments over time will affect feather structure in a bird. So that may be the reason for the slight difference in the end result color. My breeders blue feathers may answer that question for me. I also have derbyan and moustache parakeet tail feathers from this season which I will test later today and I will let you know the results.

It's funny I was starting to question the chlorine and started thinking it was the sodium. I never even though about it just being the oils stripped. Thanks Recio

sheyd · Post by **sheyd** » Mon Oct 14, 2013 8:06 pm

This reminded me of this thread:

Council's obviously playing with our water supply as I've never had any of my birds get that effect from our drinking water before.

quite pretty

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:33 pm

Rain water turned my turquoise violet youngster into a dark green overlay

http://parakeet.me/irn/f/DSC_0133.jpg

http://parakeet.me/irn/f/DSC_0138.jpg

http://parakeet.me/irn/f/DSC_0142.jpg

sheyd · Post by **sheyd** » Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:43 pm

Ring0Neck wrote:
Rain water turned my turquoise violet into a dark green overlay

http://parakeet.me/irn/f/DSC_0133.jpg

http://parakeet.me/irn/f/DSC_0138.jpg

http://parakeet.me/irn/f/DSC_0142.jpg

now that is way too cool

Skyes_crew · Post by **Skyes_crew** » Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:52 pm

That is beautiful.

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Mon Oct 28, 2013 9:18 pm

Yeah, this bird is on the list of : suspected misty of some sort, wierd

i took a couple of more pics with my phone & she looks even better with naked eye, quiet unreal

next to a turq. blue (this bird was highly iridescent in the sun when feathering up)
http://parakeet.me/irn/f/DSC_0142a.jpg

http://parakeet.me/irn/f/DSC_0149.jpg

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Mon Oct 28, 2013 10:04 pm

Molossus,

Not emerald, but they come from breeder i showed you pics of the blueish birds that i suspect carries Peter Russell's modifier.

i'm getting another 4 of these birds to make sure i sort them out within the next breeding season

i already have 2 sf blueish hens + others in turquoise and geting a mature cockbird that i think (pic i sent you) is the same mutation as well as his chick that was bred from him X a blueish hen, hope it's a df (just feathering up) . If so it could sort me out even before breeding season.
young chick bird in the middle, left blue right violet
http://parakeet.me/irn/f/PA255744.JPG
http://parakeet.me/irn/f/PA255731.JPG

Johan S · Post by **Johan S** » Tue Oct 29, 2013 2:23 am

Ben, was there ever a follow up article or new information from Peter Russell about his breeding results? That article of his is pretty old. Do you have contact with him?

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Tue Oct 29, 2013 2:48 am

Johan,

I was thinking to go and see Terry, he wrote the second half of the article, he works about 20min away from me.
However not sure when this can happen... see PM

Recio · Post by **Recio** » Tue Oct 29, 2013 3:33 am

Ring0Neck wrote:Johan,

I was thinking to go and see Terry, he wrote the second half of the article, he works about 20min away from me.
However not sure when this can happen... see PM

Hi Ben,

If you ever meet Terry .... try to take him to tour forum to assist us from a genetic point of view. It would be great to have him with us ... and maybe be he would accept as far as he would not be the moderator but just another member.

Thanks

Recio

Skyes_crew · Post by **Skyes_crew** » Wed Oct 30, 2013 1:21 am

What did you have to promise him to get him to part with that beauty?

Skyes_crew · Post by **Skyes_crew** » Wed Oct 30, 2013 9:07 am

Nice

can't wait to see pics. I unfortunately only get to see such phenomenons when my birds take a bath

sheyd · Post by **sheyd** » Wed Oct 30, 2013 3:09 pm

This thread made me dream last night of maroon topped birds with emerald colouring underneath-

Got a pic you can share with us Lee?

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:44 pm

molossus wrote:it as the bath color change that started my search for darker and lighter tails in contrast to normal body color.

We could also end up finding a lot more from a simple bath to being able to identify certain mutation

, one has to keep a mind open to be able to see these things.
** I think we need to try diff ways to look at birds now that many mutations are extremely close to each other
UV is already underway
paint.net sys is not a bad 1
wet feathers ?
flash
in full sunlight?
shade... etc

my birds after the rain the 1 that showed the green overlay when wet is the bird on the right.

http://parakeet.me/irn/f/DSC_0196.jpg

This thread made me dream last night of maroon topped birds with emerald colouring underneath-

LOL; i wish i had such dreams
did you also see in the dream what the parents were ??

PS (as always)
look at the flights on this bird close up see the pattern ? i've seen it before just can't remember what/where
it could just be the way the lighting hits the feather
http://parakeet.me/irn/f/DSC_0159.jpg

sheyd · Post by **sheyd** » Thu Oct 31, 2013 6:24 pm

Ring0Neck wrote:
This thread made me dream last night of maroon topped birds with emerald colouring underneath-
LOL; i wish i had such dreams
did you also see in the dream what the parents were ??

haha, no unfortunately not..

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Sun Nov 03, 2013 8:24 pm

I have asked Mike a favour to wet the Violet EmeraldBlue Cleartail for comparison and here are the pics.
(feathers were not soaked but still we can see the green coming through)

my bird again
http://parakeet.me/irn/f/DSC_0149.jpg

Skyes_crew · Post by **Skyes_crew** » Sun Nov 03, 2013 9:09 pm

Ben your bird shows a much brighter color coming through than mikes.

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Sun Nov 03, 2013 9:15 pm

Sky,

They are different mutations ie: cleartail

Question is: Do all violet parblue birds show green overlay when wet ?

Skyes_crew · Post by **Skyes_crew** » Sun Nov 03, 2013 9:43 pm

I'm slightly confused on the results you hope to gain though because normal violets when wet show green. So if you are still looking to find if the emerald is a parblue, then wouldn't violet be the wrong color to test your theory with?

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Sun Nov 03, 2013 9:56 pm

though because normal violets when wet show green.

do you have a pic ?
i thought that parblues would turn green when wet in conjunction with violet but not violet on its own

Skyes_crew · Post by **Skyes_crew** » Sun Nov 03, 2013 10:35 pm

Scroll half way down. Ranechild's violet bird

http://www.indianringneck.com/forum/vie ... =5&t=17599

Mine also turns green

sheyd · Post by **sheyd** » Mon Nov 04, 2013 6:21 pm

hmm- will see if my any of my violets change- will be back...

Skyes_crew · Post by **Skyes_crew** » Mon Nov 04, 2013 7:19 pm

Here is my bird just now

sheyd · Post by **sheyd** » Mon Nov 04, 2013 7:45 pm

nope-

not the best pic- you can take my word for it that none of the feathers turned greenish- just darker.

sheyd · Post by **sheyd** » Mon Nov 04, 2013 7:49 pm

Skyes_crew wrote:Scroll half way down. Ranechild's violet bird

http://www.indianringneck.com/forum/vie ... =5&t=17599

Mine also turns green

Is Ranechild's bird a sf or df Violet?

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Mon Nov 04, 2013 8:18 pm

Both birds are young??, and if parentage is not known perhaps there's a chance Sky's & the other to be turquoise and could show later patches after a molt or two?

we need more tests, i'll do some soon.

Skyes_crew · Post by **Skyes_crew** » Mon Nov 04, 2013 9:02 pm

Could the dark factor on sheys bird be preventing it? I don't think sf or df violet alone is going to matter. Ranechild has the parentage of her bird and she actually questioned the greenish color when the bird was wet back before she bought the bird and everyone told her that it was nothing. But there is no possible way my bird has turquoise in it. It may also be the difference between American violets and say the European violet strain. Maybe my bird..and Ranechild's...have a bluer content causing the reaction. Can we ask for violet owners in different regions to wet their birds and post the results? Say, America...Europe...Australia...and South Africa.

Oh and shey...my bird showed almost no color change on the chest. It was all on the back. Did you see the back of your bird?

sheyd · Post by **sheyd** » Mon Nov 04, 2013 10:32 pm

That's why I said not the best pic... Yes, they all got wet all over only got darker.

I think that until more tests are done, sf or df Violet (in this instance) should be known as it's all relevant - I did a search and found the topic you referred to:

http://www.indianringneck.com/forum/vie ... 991#p94991

For all those too lazy to read,
Ranechild's bird is presumably sf violet and has no Turq behind either parent

Btw- I haven't test bred the bird pictured to find out what strain of Violet he has, or if he is actually carrying a Darkfactor, along side with a single or double Violet factor or if he is just a dfViolet. He is essentially 'unknown' at this stage- his brother is identical- so no clues there.

Skyes_crew · Post by **Skyes_crew** » Tue Nov 05, 2013 12:26 am

Another way possibly to test the violet strain??? Whether the dark factor is involved or not??? Very interesting if it is.

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Tue Nov 05, 2013 12:34 am

Very interesting if it is.

or even if it's not.

As long as we conclude WHY? we are on a winner ;)

Johan S · Post by **Johan S** » Thu Nov 07, 2013 5:27 am

Would love to see a normal green bird as reference.

Skyes_crew · Post by **Skyes_crew** » Thu Nov 07, 2013 8:56 am

How old is the bird?

sheyd · Post by **sheyd** » Thu Nov 07, 2013 7:41 pm

Skyes_crew wrote:Another way possibly to test the violet strain??? Whether the dark factor is involved or not??? Very interesting if it is.

that would be excellent if it were the case- though if the birds pictured in that old thread of Ranechild's are all nest siblings then it is debunked already (one showing greenish the other showing darkness).

sheyd · Post by **sheyd** » Thu Nov 07, 2013 7:42 pm

molossus wrote:ok Group as promised: heres the first pic of the 'normal green' violet tailed bird..bear in mind its started lto moult and lost a main tail feather..taken with deep blue hen.

Comments .. observations ... welcome

Thanks for sharing- will be interesting to see what he looks like after he molts-

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Thu Nov 07, 2013 10:22 pm

sheyd wrote:
Skyes_crew wrote:Another way possibly to test the violet strain??? Whether the dark factor is involved or not??? Very interesting if it is.
that would be excellent if it were the case- though if the birds pictured in that old thread of Ranechild's are all nest siblings then it is debunked already (one showing greenish the other showing darkness).

Shey,

What is the conclusion? sorry a bit lazy

to go through the other threads

Johan S · Post by **Johan S** » Fri Nov 08, 2013 12:09 am

molossus wrote:according to the owner its a rising 3 y o cock..so it should moult into adult plumage now now.

Shouldn't he get his neck ring at 2 years, thus already have it?

madas · Post by **madas** » Fri Nov 08, 2013 12:17 am

Johan S wrote:
molossus wrote:according to the owner its a rising 3 y o cock..so it should moult into adult plumage now now.
Shouldn't he get his neck ring at 2 years, thus already have it?

But only if he is prematured.

Normally a 2010 Born male gets his neckring in 2013.

Skyes_crew · Post by **Skyes_crew** » Fri Nov 08, 2013 12:50 am

sheyd wrote:
Skyes_crew wrote:Another way possibly to test the violet strain??? Whether the dark factor is involved or not??? Very interesting if it is.
that would be excellent if it were the case- though if the birds pictured in that old thread of Ranechild's are all nest siblings then it is debunked already (one showing greenish the other showing darkness).

I think maybe it was the way the birds were photographed and how wet one bird was vs the other. When I wet my bird, the area that was heaviest with water showed only a darkening effect. Trabots posted this response in that thread

trabots
Post subject: Re: The babys to choose from (photos added)Posted: Sat May 11, 2013 3:06 pm

Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2012 3:18 pm
Posts: 464
When wet the structure in the feather cannot work as it should to reflect blue colours to our eyes. All Blue IRNs will look green in part depending on how soaked that part of the bird is.

Johan S · Post by **Johan S** » Fri Nov 08, 2013 1:08 am

madas wrote:
Johan S wrote:
molossus wrote:according to the owner its a rising 3 y o cock..so it should moult into adult plumage now now.
Shouldn't he get his neck ring at 2 years, thus already have it?
But only if he is prematured. Normally a 2010 Born male gets his neckring in 2013.

That might be more a European tendency.

In SA the breeding season normally starts earlier. Between my dad and I, we don't own a single 2010 cock that doesn't have a ring yet. Granted, they are all first round chicks, but they have all coloured up with mature plumage in our previous summer. I don't really keep track of the European season, but to be comparable to SA, it should start middle January. One month after winter solstice, almost all the different climate regions in SA have reports of first clutches. When does your season start?

Sorry for going a bit off topic...

madas · Post by **madas** » Fri Nov 08, 2013 1:15 am

Johan S wrote:When does your season start?

Not before mid March.
But we have breeders with males showing neckring at the Age of 1 or 2 years too. But this isn't the case generally.

sheyd · Post by **sheyd** » Fri Nov 08, 2013 1:30 am

just to be sure, checked the next day- pic taken with iphone(4s if it matters) so is a bit brighter than what you actually see with your eye.

brother to the first pictured. still dark- no green.

I have actually never seen a 'green change' not even in my reg Blues- hence why in that thread (of ranechild's) I thought maybe a reflection from a flash or something along those lines. must be pretty

Johan S · Post by **Johan S** » Fri Nov 08, 2013 1:38 am

That difference in time will probably explain our different experiences.

Back to topic. Sorry Lee!

Skyes_crew · Post by **Skyes_crew** » Fri Nov 08, 2013 1:39 am

My reg blues actually turn purple lol. Maybe water isn't the most reliable test

sheyd · Post by **sheyd** » Fri Nov 08, 2013 1:40 am

Ring0Neck wrote:
sheyd wrote:
Skyes_crew wrote:Another way possibly to test the violet strain??? Whether the dark factor is involved or not??? Very interesting if it is.
that would be excellent if it were the case- though if the birds pictured in that old thread of Ranechild's are all nest siblings then it is debunked already (one showing greenish the other showing darkness).
Shey,

What is the conclusion? sorry a bit lazy to go through the other threads

lol Ben-

it was my conclusion I drew to- both birds being nest siblings- one showed 'darkness' the other 'greenness'-- though as Melissa has since pointed out one was wetter than the other- so I guess inconclusive?