Have a Guess

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Sat Dec 08, 2012 7:27 am

Here's a pic of 2 young chicks in the nest. Let's guess as to what they are.
Pic is slightly distorted, just as well, it will make it more challenging, and a good excuse if you get it wrong

Guess 1.
http://parakeet.me/irn/f/IMG_1867a.jpg

or you can have a go at a slightly harder one.
Guess 2
http://parakeet.me/irn/f/IMG_4192ax.jpg

Recio · Post by **Recio** » Sat Dec 08, 2012 9:49 am

Hi Ben,

Let's try:

First guess : too young and bad quality pic (thank you for the excuse, LOL ...). I bet for a turquoise morphotype. Whether homozygous or heterozygous it is impossible to say without knowing the parents.... but if it was just this ... you will not have put this pic here ... so we must think for something else. I bet for turquoise instead of indigo because it is a very young bird and it already shows a lot of psittacin ... but there are other mutations also increasing psittacin ... could it also be dom pied? ... and a turquoise DF Dom Pied the sibling besides? In this case we could call it saddleback.

Second guess: very hard to say without a normal blue besides. In my screen the feather colour of both birds is similar making me think of a Deep Blue, but their nails colour is different: black for one and grey for the other. I can not explain it... or may be one of them is SF Deep Blue and the other is DF Deep Blue?

Expecting for others comments ... wait a bit before solving the guess (I join Molossus) ...

Regards

Recio

Recio · Post by **Recio** » Sat Dec 08, 2012 11:20 am

Hi Molossus,

Probably you are rigth. The pic is not very good but it is true that we can see some very dark patches on the wings. On the other hand we have always a lot of psittacin ... Mmmhhh .... on my screen the head seems darker than usually .... could we add Opaline to the parblue?

Regards

Recio

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Sat Dec 08, 2012 4:52 pm

Clues - both on the right track, I do not have Opaline, no DF's - first guess is not as complicated hence the distorted pic,
pic of the cockbird for Guess 1 below:

More pics of th chicks and a clue chick to help
http://parakeet.me/irn/f/IMG_1865a.jpg
http://parakeet.me/irn/f/IMG_1866a.jpg
Recio you said: ".. but there are other mutations also increasing psittacin ..."
This is the reason i used this pic, is there another??
"(nails) black for one and grey for the other" - could be because of their age diff. (weeks) !? I noticed some, at 1-2 months nails look darker and it gets lighter as it ages...
don't have a young blue to throw in, but i can throw in a smile

prodigy · Post by **prodigy** » Sat Dec 08, 2012 10:40 pm

Hi Guys,

1 Turqiose Indigo Deep

2 Violet green Deep

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Sat Dec 08, 2012 10:50 pm

Peter, not bad, however no green , no violet, good start.
Molossus .. I can't say ...

Guess 1 Everyone so far missed a mutation, crucial one and the 3rd chick in clue images tell us what it is. cockbird is split to...
Clue: no pieds.

prodigy · Post by **prodigy** » Sat Dec 08, 2012 11:02 pm

Whooops was looking at the wrong pics

1 Turqiose Indigo Deep

2 Deep Emerald or Deep Blue

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Sun Dec 09, 2012 12:12 am

http://parakeet.me/irn/f/IMG_1864a.jpg

Recio · Post by **Recio** » Sun Dec 09, 2012 2:38 am

Ring0Neck wrote:Peter, not bad, however no green , no violet, good start.
Molossus .. I can't say ...

Guess 1 Everyone so far missed a mutation, crucial one and the 3rd chick in clue images tell us what it is. cockbird is split to...

..... edged.

Recio

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Sun Dec 09, 2012 3:00 am

Ok so let's reveal the Guess 1

Parents known as: heterozygous TurquoiseBlue/pallid X Blue Pallid

this pair belongs to my friend.
I suspect another mutation at play, reason: same features you guys were noticing.
i will update pics in a few days to see how the young turned out and if there's anything else.
pics are not the best but made it rather interesting.
It shows us how hard it can be by just looking at pics without genotype info on parents.
** I am certain if someone acquires an Emerald or a Deep Blue + many other mutations,but was never told/made aware of it, there's a good chance most breeders will never find out.

Recio, Edged? i know what you mean but extremely rare in OZ.

Ben

Johan S · Post by **Johan S** » Sun Dec 09, 2012 1:16 pm

Recio wrote:
Ring0Neck wrote:Peter, not bad, however no green , no violet, good start.
Molossus .. I can't say ...

Guess 1 Everyone so far missed a mutation, crucial one and the 3rd chick in clue images tell us what it is. cockbird is split to...

..... edged.

Recio

How now, Recio? SPLIT for edged???

I know there is a recessive type, but not in Oz, right?

Ben, do you know of any, as I've never heard/seen pics of edged (dominant or recessive) from down under.

Sorry for hijacking your puzzle.

Ben, those aren't pallids. It is a new mutation that is called "blurry pallid". Every time you point a camera, it seems these birds somehow disrupts light itself and comes out unclear on a picture. Very interesting!

For the two birds remaining, I'd put it at SF deep, perhaps with indigo or emerald. But I'm more inclined to deep or deep indigoblue than deep emerald.

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Sun Dec 09, 2012 4:42 pm

new mutation that is called "blurry pallid"

pics were taken with camera focus on manual

as my son left it, ialways use auto-focus hahaha
let's just say i was "out of focus" that evening

You know what they say: with a Cannon you can change the world

No, I do not know of edged in OZ.

Guess 2: Intresting that no one said Cobalt, not saying it is or not.

rod038 · Post by **rod038** » Sun Dec 09, 2012 8:32 pm

The second photo was of interest to me as I bred 2 similar this year out of a Cobalt Cock and a Violet Blue Hen. The Cobalt Cock was bought as a European Cobalt and this was its first time breeding. They bred 8 chicks in total and 2 which I were sure were normal Blues have turned out to have an almost metalic sheen about them now they are fledged. The other 6 chicks were all Violets of some description and hard to tell apart.

I have attached a photo of one of them compared to a normal Blue when they were still in the nest.

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Sun Dec 09, 2012 9:14 pm

Hi Rod,

Your description sounds like Deep Blues, however the bird in the photo looks more cobalt to me.
Can you take a photo outside? or with flash?
The only other thing that can be is the blues that Peter Russell bred out of his violets, still don't know what they were...
Have you DNAed them? are they both hens?
Look at your cobalt history, were the parents cobalt to cobalt? or cobalt to deep? who did you acquire the cobalt from? did they have deep also?
reason i say this is because there's a good chance the breeder could not identify the cobalt as cobalt deep blue or was not aware that it is deep also.
I remember i had a pair Cobalts from Neville Armstrong, now when i look back i think they could have been deep blues, i did not keep them.

Ben

Johan S · Post by **Johan S** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 4:29 am

Ring0Neck wrote:
new mutation that is called "blurry pallid"

pics were taken with camera focus on manual as my son left it, ialways use auto-focus hahaha
let's just say i was "out of focus" that evening

LOL

Ring0Neck wrote:No, I do not know of edged in OZ.

Guess 2: Intresting that no one said Cobalt, not saying it is or not.

Just say the word and I'll send you some over.

Bird seems to light for a cobalt for my liking. And still to similar to a normal blue. I was reminded a lot of the latter the first time I looked at the deep blue tail feather from Willy.

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 4:43 am

Johan, Indeed, only if we could import..

Guess 2
Both birds in the pic believed Deep Blues, from a diff. breeder.
The only difference between the birds is their age and reflection from flash
In a couple of days i'm getting a Deep Blue from Trabots and i will take pics again of all of them.
Willy correct me if i'm wrong but it seems that Deep Blues get dark nails at first but later on they go slightly lighter.

Rod - Does your young birds look like this?
file is 4mb! you can open it and right click, "save as" in your computer so you can zoom in if you need to analyze it.
http://parakeet.me/irn/f/IMG_4317a.jpg

trabots · Post by **trabots** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 5:07 am

I have not noticed abnormal nails on Deep Blues.

rod038 · Post by **rod038** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 3:40 pm

The bird I was talking about came from a European Cobalt Cock I got off Wayne Prestwidge in Orange. I dont know if he had any Deep birds. The hen was a Violet Blue from Philip Highland in Perth. I had bred the Violet Blue before to another Violet Blue but nothing out of the ordinary appeared.

Same bird no flash. Doesnt look as dark in real life.

Same bird with flash. This looks closer to the actual colour.

Some of its siblings. The smallest bird on the right appears to be a Violet and looks alot darker than the bird in the above photos but different to the other 2 from the nest in the photo.

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:47 pm

Rod,
Hopefully Willy will have an input here and tell us what he thinks.

My take on it: They look like deep blues in my opinion, if they are not, you can not get much closer to their phenotype.
the other thing that can be as mentioned earlier read the article by Peter Russell about the blue birds breeding violets. links below

Just click once on the picture when loaded to enlarge to readable size, or right click and save then you can open it and enlarge to read.

http://parakeet.me/irn/redz/cover.jpg

http://parakeet.me/irn/redz/p544_545.jpg

http://parakeet.me/irn/redz/p546.jpg

I don't know if birds in the article are deep blues.
Ben

Johan S · Post by **Johan S** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:36 pm

Hi Rod,

I'm with Ben on this one. My experience with deep blue is very little, but we breed cobalts by the buckets full and that bird is many steps too light. The photo taken with the flash reminds me of what has been said about the deep mutation. The bird has an odd looking head.

Keep in mind, in SA there was also a batch of imported European cobalt that many of us now suspect is the deep mutation. Not all European cobalts are true dark factor birds. They also have the deep mutation. And they had it before SA and Oz.

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:42 pm

I also suspect the Deep "Melanistic" feature makes Deep hard to detect as it blends in.
Take a violet deep blue or a Cobalt Deep Blue even a Cinnamon Deep Blue and i believe it is very hard to distinguish between the ones with Deep and the ones without Deep. Best if you have them side by side and even then...

I do not have all these birds given in the example to be sure, it is a conclusion of mine.
Of course this is a theory for now and some agree and some don't.
we don't have to agree or otherwise - but rather to prove it so...or disprove it through breeding results.
Time will tell.

Ben

rod038 · Post by **rod038** » Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:58 am

Thanks for everyones replies. So next season should I split the parents up and if I do what should I pair them too?

The pair had 8 young in total over 2 clutches. The first clutch were fostered out and there was a problem with the nest box becoming really damp and the birds seemed to be really delayed in development. The youngest one which was the same colour as the bird I have shown photos of injured its leg and was left behind, so I gave it to another breeder who looked after it and now it is doing fine. I thought it was a normal Blue at the time. The rest of the chicks became weaker and weaker with one being eaten by the Foster Mother. The last 2 still hadnt left the box at around 9 weeks. Still at 14 weeks they cant fly properly or perch. The one I am showing the photo of was nearly dead and has been on antibiotics. They are both Hens and I wont breed them because they are quite small and not very strong.
The second clutch did better but the mother plucked them all at around 6 weeks so I had to hand raise till weaning. They are all flying and gradually becoming fully feathered. They are all still a bit on the small side.

I tried a new nesting matierial this year which was Euchy Mulch and I think this caused problems with my young. The boxes became very damp and I was changing the matierial weekly. I had another 2 chicks from another pair that at 12 weeks still dont fly or perch but sit or lie on the cage floor.

This could explain the apperancxe of these birds.

Johan S · Post by **Johan S** » Tue Dec 11, 2012 2:33 am

Hi Rod,

thanks for the feedback on the nesting material. It is a valuable lesson for the rest of us, albeit at a large expense to yourself!

I will try and avoid that product for sure after your experience, and I'm sure others will do the same. Really a shame that you had to loose these chicks. For safety, I'd breed the two birds to normal green or blue, just to see what comes out and if your mutations are "true" or a combination. I'm doing the same this side with some of our birds that I have my doubts on and that might rather be combinations.

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Tue Dec 11, 2012 4:11 am

Updated pics i just got of the Guess 1 birds.
http://parakeet.me/irn/f/g1a.jpg
http://parakeet.me/irn/f/g1b.jpg

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 7:58 am

New Guess 3

Again pics are not the best as they were taken through wire , it was breeding season when taken.
Hint: pay close attention to detail - you can save the pic on computer and you can zoom in more.

http://parakeet.me/irn/f/IMG_0688a.jpg

http://parakeet.me/irn/f/IMG_0691a.jpg

http://parakeet.me/irn/f/IMG_0692a.jpg

Johan S · Post by **Johan S** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 9:37 am

Mauve violet / whwt /?nsl ino.

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 4:41 pm

Splits -

Joahn, i have a CHF young and eyes now look dark black, as opposed to dark red like the others. any ideas why?

I noticed yesterday when i was looking at the young chfs. here's a pic
http://parakeet.me/irn/f/bcupg.jpg

Johan S · Post by **Johan S** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 8:17 pm

Ben, I think it's normal for them to darken a bit. I don't own them and haven't paid much attention, but I'll have a look at my dad's when I visit.

And did I get the splits right?

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Sat Dec 22, 2012 1:26 am

Johan,

I have same age chf's in cage and for young to darken the eyes is normal yes, this guy is going black dark not plum dark.
This is an eye of a mature hen.

and the young's eyes close up

pics taken same day same camera diff cages.

Molossus, hen has 3 mutations dark, violet, & deep or p russell's type.
she was paired to a blue/cinn and made it harder to distinguish which is what, but violet is sf.
bird is a friend's i have some young from her. including this young nice cobalt and or deep? cinnamon
don't have another cobalt cinn to compare.. last one i owned was back in 09.
http://parakeet.me/irn/f/cindi.jpg

PS - Probably no DF in any color.

see Ron's Deep Dark Indigo Blue

Johan S · Post by **Johan S** » Sat Dec 22, 2012 2:13 am

Ben, maybe also consider the angle at which the eye is photographed?

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Sat Dec 22, 2012 2:29 am

Johan,

Forget the pics, i noticed when i was feeding them, pics can do anything to color as we know.
I uploaded them for reference.

Ben

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Sun Dec 23, 2012 3:30 am

Here's a pic of 2 buttercups pretty much same age. you can clearly see the black looking eyes on the grey.
i looked again and it is black-plum.
The bird is 4 months old
Johan, if you find out anything let me know.
I'm really interested to know if anyone experienced something similar...
i suspect another mutation causes that.

Same bird back in speptember:

Johan S · Post by **Johan S** » Sun Dec 23, 2012 1:09 pm

Hey Ben, I will archive this question of yours and more closely investigate CHF when I see them, esp. the grey. Really intriguing. Send me your email address in a PM, and I'll send you some photos of ours.

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Thu Dec 27, 2012 4:43 am

In certain light conditions we get this:

http://parakeet.me/irn/f/aDSCF0361.jpg

prodigy · Post by **prodigy** » Thu Dec 27, 2012 11:08 am

Hi Ben,

I have two CHF's that do the same thing, they are both over 2 years old now.

Regards,

Peter

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Fri Dec 28, 2012 4:53 am

Peter,

Have you noticed anything in particular about them? what colors are they? if you suspect anything does not matter how small let me know.

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Sun Dec 30, 2012 1:46 am

Finally i got a decent pic of this beauty just before sunset.

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Sun Dec 30, 2012 3:45 am

This is rather spooky - for those of us that don't believe in Aliens LOL
You will see it better if you already started the New year's party !!

Hint: Wing image
What u c?

http://parakeet.me/irn/f/imagen.jpg

In case you don't get it, use this pic to reveal it.
http://parakeet.me/irn/f/imagenz.jpg

Happy New Year to all and have a great season next year !!!

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Tue Jan 15, 2013 8:16 am

Here's something interesting.

Remember Guess 2? Well here are the 2 birds (nr 2 & 3 ) grown up.
Keep an eye on nr 2 - first 2 pics show the bird as i see it through naked eye.

http://parakeet.me/irn/f/3youngcr.jpg

http://parakeet.me/irn/f/youngcrc.jpg

& using a different dslr auto settings inc flash:

http://parakeet.me/irn/f/3youngcrb.jpg

http://parakeet.me/irn/f/3youngcra.jpg

none of the pics have been edited other then cut to a smaller size.