Cobolt - Violet ??

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Tue Sep 25, 2012 9:40 pm

Just found this on the net.

Does anyone want to have a go at this bird and try to figure out why is it so?
You'll see in the description that it looks like a cobolt but produces violet looking young.
Interesting flight feathers n tail feathers.
I do not know the answer and from what i can tell from the website, breeder does not know neither.

My imagination runs wild here and i think of the possibility of a modifier being present. (i just like the idea)
What i mean by that ? bird might be carrying another modifier/mutation and possibly Autosomal Recessive,or Sex-linked Recessive
since the young don't look like the hen but rather violet like. in which case breeder should put an offspring cock back to hen.

or is it just a violet cobolt hen ?
what's your take on it?

http://www.indianringneckvic.com/apps/p ... =163578502

Johan S · Post by **Johan S** » Tue Sep 25, 2012 11:58 pm

Hi Ring0,

You get at least two variaties of violet, the one strain already looks violet in SF (lets call it Strain 1), and the other looks like cobalt with perhaps a tinge of violet in SF, but produces violet DF offspring (lets call them Strain 2). I know for a fact that both types exist in SA, and that strain 2 exists in Australia. Not sure about strain 1 in Australia, but I suspect that it is around. I also think both types exist in Europe.

We have discussed it previously at http://www.indianringneck.com/forum/vie ... 26&t=15386

The bird you linked seems to be a SF violet (strain 2) to me.

Example of strain 1 in SF (in DF it appears almost mauve like, but with very visible violet left. Unfortunately, I don't have decent quality pics of DF)

Example of youngsters with strain 2 in both SF and DF, thanks to rod038

From what I have been able to gather, I'm starting to consider that we get two types of violet, and also two types of dark (i.e. two alleles of the dark locus, and two alleles of the violet locus, 4 in total). Now herein lies the problem, I've seen people (both in SA and Aus) refer to both the second type of violet, as well as the second type of dark, as the 'deep' mutation. There is already confusion, and it's going to get worse before it gets better.

Eg. when someone refers to a deep cobalt, or a deep violet, what does this mean and exactly what mutations are they combining?

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Wed Sep 26, 2012 12:19 am

Well said Johan.

i'll read the thread Thanks.

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Sat Sep 29, 2012 10:05 pm

Johan, You said: Her 2011 clutch produced two normal cobalt looking birds (like the cock), and two birds that looked exactly like her. My thinking is that, if it is indeed a combination, we should be more likely to see separate components of the combination in the offspring than multiple chicks with the same combination. However, as you know, 4 offspring are not enough to make a conclusion. One might get lucky and get 2 violet cobalts in a season, and then nothing the next. What also worries me is that there wasn't any blue or mauve offspring. That is why we are test breeding her for another season. Hopefully there will be 5 more chicks to help solve the 'mystery'.

Why don't you pair up the bird in question to a Green bird?
It'll be so easy to identify a dark green to a violet green
Once established if it is a dark or violet factor bird, then you can investigate strains.
It could be that your bird is the Deep Blue (Australian Cobalt) here in Australia?

Has your pair bred this year? What did you get in the nest from this pair?
Do you have a verdict as to what your bird is? I guess you'll say a SF Violet Blue of strain 1?!
Very Interesting.

madas · Post by **madas** » Sun Sep 30, 2012 12:09 am

So lets guess what he got:

I would say 4 mauves and 1 cobalt.

Madas

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Sun Sep 30, 2012 1:41 am

I would go for 2 mauves, 1 cobalt and 2 deep blues!?.

Johan S · Post by **Johan S** » Mon Oct 01, 2012 12:18 am

madas wrote:So lets guess what he got:

I would say 4 mauves and 1 cobalt.

Madas

LOL, you cheated!

I have interpreted the breeding results as follows:
Offspring shows that the hen
1) definitely carries the dark factor. The mauves are proof of this.
2) carries something else that isn't an allele of dark. The variation in mauve is proof of this.

Over to the experts and their thoughts.

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Mon Oct 01, 2012 12:34 am

LoL
That is a fabulous result, Congrats!

First time i see Mauves a bunch in a single nest, very nice indeed.

Johan S · Post by **Johan S** » Mon Oct 01, 2012 7:05 am

Ring0, as you can expect, we are rather excited with the result. They have grown a bit since.

willowisp71 · Post by **willowisp71** » Mon Oct 01, 2012 5:17 pm

Oh WOW, Johan! How awesome! What a great result! Very pretty colours

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Tue Oct 02, 2012 1:39 am

Any chance you can throw a grey amongst the mauves to see how easy is it to identify grey from mauve? only if you had one handy ?

It would be a great reference pic.

Ben

Johan S · Post by **Johan S** » Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:48 am

Hi Ben,

unfortunately the first nest that can possibly give grey have only hatched this weekend past. So they are very far behind this bunch. Will make a point of throwing some of these, along with a grey or two, and some cobalt, violet and cobalt violets (the other strains we have) into one aviary over Dec/Jan holidays.

Best I can do right now is this picture of some birds that came up to my place. Excuse the poor condition, they have traveled 1300 km and older birds were in their late summer moult. Grey is front middle, and next to it is the mauve (front right) with the blueish sheen. The difference is striking when they are sitting next to one another, but obviously much harder to tell apart when looking at only one bird.

@Deb, thanks for the kind words!

Lushen1600 · Post by **Lushen1600** » Tue Oct 02, 2012 1:07 pm

Hi Johan, forgive me for going off the topic, but can I ask why you cages are made like a tube/cylinder or round shape instead of the normal straighter rectangular shape

Thanks
Lushen

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Tue Oct 02, 2012 6:07 pm

Lushen, If i had to guess, i'd say convenience, easy to setup and works great as holding flights, can be moved around.
you only need a sheet of wire mesh and some for the ends and you're done. Great Idea Johan

Johan, 3 "obvious" birds stand out of that cage that would be something i'd like to add to my collection. i guess you know which.. one of which we don't have here in Au. (as far as i know)

Johan S · Post by **Johan S** » Wed Oct 03, 2012 7:33 am

Lushen1600 wrote:Hi Johan, forgive me for going off the topic, but can I ask why you cages are made like a tube/cylinder or round shape instead of the normal straighter rectangular shape

Thanks
Lushen

Lushen, mathematics is my friend, thats why.

Circumference of a circle with diameter of 0.9m is significantly less than a 0.9 x 0.9m square (compare just over 2.8m with 3.6m). You'll save about 20% wire that way and your 1.8m x 30m roll of wire mesh goes a lot further. That way one can consider 13x25mm mesh, which is much better considering rodents and other pests, but also a lot more expensive. Also, a circle is structurally stronger than a square without supports. Notice how often square cages without a metal frame becomes flimsy in the middle. And of course, it is MUCH simpler to build them that way when one insists on doing everything yourself. When you take the roll of mesh, and cut off 2x 0.9m lengths, you have the face and back for two cages next to one another sharing the same face and back (kind of looks like binoculars). We've been doing it that way since 1995 with great success. The only thing, the perches should be higher up in the cage than in that picture, otherwise the tail feathers get damaged.

Johan S · Post by **Johan S** » Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:13 am

Ring0Neck wrote:Johan, 3 "obvious" birds stand out of that cage that would be something i'd like to add to my collection. i guess you know which.. one of which we don't have here in Au. (as far as i know)

I was under the impression you had all of those in Au., but very limited opaline and only a handful of ADM pied. You can have our pick, I'll trade you any of those for a harlequin.

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:50 pm

Yes, we have the Opaline, a few reccessive pieds around but not sure if they are ADMs.
I like the ADM's pied pattern on the wings, quiet unique.
Unfortunately we can not import birds, only through zoos and special arrangements otherwise i would swap a harlequin for an ADM anyday.
If anyone knows a way, i'd like to know about it.

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Thu Oct 04, 2012 6:20 pm

Yes indeed, good question

I do know how Clearheaded Fallows got in thanks to N. A. & J.
Clear Tail i understand was brought in the same as above and i can't comment too much more on how.
Harlequin and opaline J. Smith brought them in, as i understand it, in colaboration with the zoo
that option is not available to the rest of us
If anyone knows otherwise let us know.

Johan S · Post by **Johan S** » Mon Oct 08, 2012 2:31 am

An update on the chicks:

Above picture taken with a flash.

And just to show how much the colour on a picture of a single bird (the cobalt look-alike above) can change for different lighting setups:

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Mon Oct 08, 2012 2:40 am

Johan,

It goes to show how hard it is to judge a bird through a picture, and i assume your example was taken with same camera, only lighting was different.
Nice updated pics, Thanks for the updates, keep them coming, they look sublime.

Johan S · Post by **Johan S** » Mon Oct 08, 2012 2:47 am

Yes, same camera with different light. When you look at the darker mauve, notice how pitch black the nails are.

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:33 am

Johan,

Is that how black the nails really are ? or just in the picture?

Johan S · Post by **Johan S** » Mon Oct 08, 2012 8:01 am

Like you, I also have only seen the pictures. So I'm not sure, but it struck me as interesting. This is from my dad's flock, and we stay in different cities.

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Mon Oct 08, 2012 8:23 am

From what I have been able to gather, I'm starting to consider that we get two types of violet, and also two types of dark (i.e. two alleles of the dark locus, and two alleles of the violet locus, 4 in total). Now herein lies the problem, I've seen people (both in SA and Aus) refer to both the second type of violet, as well as the second type of dark, as the 'deep' mutation. There is already confusion, and it's going to get worse before it gets better. Eg. when someone refers to a deep cobalt, or a deep violet, what does this mean and exactly what mutations are they combining?

Johan, i doubt that there's 2 types of violet strain, yes we will get diff shades of violet blue but the birds we are talking about i think they are dark birds Deep Blue. Whoever has this type of birds and believes that it is another strain of violet i think they should pair up this bird to a EU Cobalt and they should get mauves (if i'm right)

your thoughts?

Johan S · Post by **Johan S** » Mon Oct 08, 2012 9:24 am

Ben,

the test you propose is exactly what I suspect has happened when we paired the strange cobalt hen (best guess currently is cobalt 'deep') to a European cobalt and got two shades of mauve. So I think that we have sufficient proof for this mutation that it isn't an allele of dark. Next, we'll need to see how it behaves towards DF American violet and what it looks like in DF by itself. The cobalt 'deep' hen and her lighter chick has a slight violet tinge, so I suspect (strongly) that this 'deep' will show a violet phenotype in DF. Exactly or very similar to what I have called the second strain of violet. Whether it is an allele of the American violet, only time will tell. I have seen breeding results with american violet and what the SA guys here refer to as deep, and they look very different from our outcome.

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Fri Oct 12, 2012 9:34 pm

Johan,

Have a look at this pic and note the black nails! like in the pics you uploaded, what do you think?
Link to more pictures in this post
http://www.indianringneck.com/forum/vie ... 0&start=50

http://parakeet.me/irn/trico1.jpg

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Sat Oct 13, 2012 4:30 am

Just away from the subject.
I have found this bird for sale
I'm going to see it tomorrow, ideas what it is?

cinnamon blue?...
they advertised it as pale blue.... i'm thinking hoping it's a Dilute, or Misty...
flight feathers are not in good view.

Ideas?

Johan S · Post by **Johan S** » Sat Oct 13, 2012 5:52 am

Difficult to tell from photo, but I'd guess blue or cobalt dilute. Definitely not misty, though. And blue cinnamon doesn't seem to stick from that photo either.

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Sat Oct 13, 2012 8:25 am

http://www.mcw-indianringnecks.com.au/g ... e-cock.htm
DF Misty Blue

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Sat Oct 13, 2012 9:35 am

Thanks Guys,

I hope so too.
It is a low quality pic, hope the bird looks like in the pic in real life.

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Sun Oct 14, 2012 2:07 am

I got the bird.
i took some pics in the cage pics below.
i can see the brown flights
will update pics of rump, wings later if needed.

http://parakeet.me/irn/dr1.jpg
http://parakeet.me/irn/dr2.jpg
http://parakeet.me/irn/dr3.jpg
http://parakeet.me/irn/dr4.jpg

A cinnamon blue, or is it?, the seller said that it was paired to a green/blue and produced 3 normal blue babies, if cinnamon it must have had 3 cockbirds all blue/cinn. the other logical explanation is that he is Dilute and all young were splits
Also, the ring is black, lower mandible (beak) is dark red not brownish .. as cinnamon blue would have..

More pics of nails, neckring etc

http://parakeet.me/irn/dr6.jpg
http://parakeet.me/irn/drring.jpg
http://parakeet.me/irn/drnails.jpg

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Sun Oct 14, 2012 8:21 pm

This picture was taken during daylight
http://parakeet.me/irn/dr7.jpg
http://parakeet.me/irn/dr8.jpg
http://parakeet.me/irn/dr9.jpg

madas · Post by **madas** » Sun Oct 14, 2012 10:07 pm

molossus wrote:i say its a dilute blue. nice bird though.

Hi Molossus,

it's not a true dilute blue. They have black feather shafts and the rump isn't that blue. See here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/minivip200 ... otostream/
The brownish flights let me think the bird contains atleast cinnamon. But i have no idea regarding the whole birds color. Perhaps it's a very light cinnamon blue
which was sitting in the sun light for th ewhole season and got bleached out. So lets wait for the next moult which should turn it back to the "real" beauty of a cinnamon.

madas

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Sun Oct 14, 2012 10:21 pm

Hi Madas,

He was commenting on the single photo i had at the time, see below.

What would be best pairing for this bird?
I was thinking of my violet turquoise pallid hen

http://parakeet.me/irn/fly0.jpg

mallee_1 · Post by **mallee_1** » Mon Oct 15, 2012 4:06 pm

Hi Ben,

I tend to agree with Madas, to me looks like cinnamonblue but very light, needs to go through moult.

I wouldn't be pairing up with that hen unless you want to completely wash out the what violet is left in this hen, the cinnamon will add to the pallid effect. Ever seen a cinnamonblue pallid, very very washed out bird.

You would be better adding Cobalt to this hen to try and get more colour out of her.

Violetcobalt pallids are probably the best coloured bird in the pallids as they tend to hold the violet colour strong.

Regards Glenn

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Mon Oct 15, 2012 7:13 pm

Hi Glenn,

I too tend to agree that it is a cinnamon blue (although Dilute or Misty? Edge? Cinnamon is not uncommon).
Have a look at some great combos http://www.mcw-indianringnecks.com.au/G ... aries.html

My reason for pairing with the violet turq. pallid hen is to test both birds.
As you know, the pairing of Cockbird in Question X violet turq. pallid will not give me any pallids
boys will be split for both, hens cinnamon

I am not thinking of darkerning the resulting offspring, everyone else is doing it.
I would rather test breed these 2 birds to confirm their genetic makeup and this pairing will make it easy to do so
This year the hen gave me 3 violets & violet turquoise by these results i can not see why hen is so washed out, this cockbird might help bring out if she carries anything else that he carries (can be cinnamon or Dilute etc)

This pairing is not part of my main breeding program rather experimenting and getting some lavender hens in the proccess.
I also chose this hen for carrying Turquoise adding some flavour to a lavender

Ben

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Sun Oct 28, 2012 2:37 am

Johan and others
How can we explain this breeding result?

Parents: Deep Blue Hen (sf) X Violet Blue (sf) Male from Peter Russell line
picture of parents below:
http://parakeet.me/irn/m/bDeepnVioletpr.jpg

Hen Offspring - very dark, almost mauve looking but yet, it should be just a Violet Deep Blue, i say that it has at least a double factor and i think it is Dark factor. What do you make of it? - Looking back at the article by Peter Russell perhaps his birds are carrying the deep also?
Or is it the 2 violet strains at play?
Hen was paired to a Blue/cinn and she young had violet , deep blue, deep blue cinnamon, another nest of 5 are due to feather up shortly.

(pics were taken through the wire, not the clearest. .breeding season ..)
http://parakeet.me/irn/m/vdarkhenfront.jpg
http://parakeet.me/irn/m/mv1.jpg
http://parakeet.me/irn/m/mv2.jpg
http://parakeet.me/irn/m/mv3.jpg
http://parakeet.me/irn/m/mv5.jpg

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:36 am

Hi Molossus,
you said:

breeders combined the deep and dark

We have to realise that many breeders do not or did not know they have Deep not Dark or violet?.
And untill we can get to the bottom of this.. we don't either.

At a guess i say that the cock isnt violet but cobalt

I want to agree , but can i? this bloodline is proven violet since introduction into Australia.
So my best guess is that the cock is carrying violet and deep or dark factor, perhaps from the beginning. Since introduction?

This violet cock is a direct bird from original violets in Australia - just a few generations and direct bloodline
Did you read the Peter Russell article i posted? the cock is from his line, and he did not breed cobalts to mix with violets.
How did this dark/deep gene come about into his violets? was it there all along? perhaps was introduced through a "blue" or turquoise "blue"
Deep blue Turq. phenotype would just simply look like a nice turquoise, easily mistaken by anyone.

Ben

Johan S · Post by **Johan S** » Mon Oct 29, 2012 9:34 am

I don't quite share the sentiment that the bird is a mauve-like phenotype. The overall wash on the underside is a bit light, and the tail region is too light and one can see the violet quite clearly in some of the photos. However, this bird is very close to reaching "mauve-status" when considering the wing coverts. But this is purely an opinion, I don't know the breeder or history of the birds.

My best guesses are that it is
1) a deep x cobalt violet (light variety) that produced a deep dark violet. The phenotype of the cobalt violet (light variety) is very similar to normal cobalt and I'm sure that many such birds exist that are simply confused for cobalt.
2) a deep x deep violet pair that produced a DF deep violet.

As a matter of interest, I have been able to track the origin of two of our light variety violets. Both were imported by separate breeders from Belgium. It would be interesting to know where the Australian violets were imported from.

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Mon Oct 29, 2012 10:44 am

Thanks guys for your input.
I agree Johan, at this stage both option are possible.

As far as i know John Ellis (i think he had a pratner at the time John F.) imported the first Violet into Australia.
I have seen the bird, breeder will never part with it.
Peter Russell i believe was one of the first 3-4 to buy from John
the cockbird is a direct bloodline from original import hence the importance of his blue bird article.

I will contact these breeders to find more information .
If any anyone knows more or different let us know.

Ben

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Wed Oct 31, 2012 3:08 am

Ring0Neck wrote:Johan and others
Summary :

Parents: (Deep??) or Violet Strain2 ?? Hen (sf) X Violet Strain1 (sf) Male from Peter Russell line
picture of parents below:
http://parakeet.me/irn/m/bDeepnVioletpr.jpg

Hen Offspring - very dark, almost mauve looking
Johan, what if this is strain 1 X strain 2 = DF Violet or combo Violet S1 S2

(pics were taken through the wire, not the clearest. .breeding season ..)
http://parakeet.me/irn/m/vdarkhenfront.jpg
http://parakeet.me/irn/m/mv1.jpg
http://parakeet.me/irn/m/mv2.jpg
http://parakeet.me/irn/m/mv3.jpg
http://parakeet.me/irn/m/mv5.jpg

My thought is that strain 1 X strain 2 = does NOT give you a DF Violet
it will give you instead a Violet S1 S2 hence the brownish coloring

Ben

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:25 am

I was reading on yahoo thread and i part quote

The darker plumage on their heads and napes of their necks are the
> result of dark factor genes also in incomplete form since Recessive
> Pied is the dominant gene present creating the beautiful mosaic
> pattern you see..................
>
> Jaynee Salan
>>
> website: http://www.piedringnecksusa.com

Do you guys agree with above statement ?
Is that a true identifyier of Dark factor being present in that bird as in incomplete form?

Could i assume that these birds are also Dark factor genotype?
That would make them Violet (dominant factor) & Dark incomplete. Violet Cobalt !

Johan S · Post by **Johan S** » Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:47 am

There will be many people that disagree with this statement. I am one of them.