Cinn Clearhead babies?

McmillanBirds · Post by **McmillanBirds** » Thu Aug 30, 2012 11:14 pm

Hi everyone

As you know earlier in the year I was asking if my 1 male was indeed a cinnamon clearhead fallow instead of a pallid. Well, he eventually paired with a lutino hen. They laid four eggs and the eggs must have started hatching on wednesday evening as when I went to inspect the box yesterday there were 2 babies.

Now here is my question:
The babies what I can see have red eyes under the lids. I will have to wait and see when they start feathering up, and I will post a picture on monday, but is that the cinnamon factor(the eyes will then darken after a few weeks)? or maybe something else?

Just a little curious and impatient

Carmen

Johan S · Post by **Johan S** » Thu Aug 30, 2012 11:52 pm

Hi Carmen, you'll have your answer in a month or so. The red eyes can be confusing, mostly because of the combination. The lutino hen should only be able to breed black eyed chicks, unless the cock is split to ino. A clearheaded cock will also only breed black eyed chicks, unless the hen is split for clearhead. Your gut feeling regarding the cinnamon in the cock, however, could be the answer, if the red eyed chicks turn out to be female. However, the same will apply for pallid... Waiting until they feather up will confirm whether you might have some 'surprise' splits. I know it's hard, but you should be patient.

McmillanBirds · Post by **McmillanBirds** » Fri Aug 31, 2012 12:05 am

the patience game for someone who is highly impatient.
Oh well

I wont be selling those babies until I know whats potting there!!

Johan S · Post by **Johan S** » Fri Aug 31, 2012 1:39 am

Well, you should know whats going on with them long before they will be ready to be sold.

McmillanBirds · Post by **McmillanBirds** » Fri Aug 31, 2012 1:49 am

Thats true. The eyes should darken and/or I should be able to see with the pin feathers more ir less. Thats between 3 and 4 weeks. So patience patience patience. I will have to keep telling myself that.

McmillanBirds · Post by **McmillanBirds** » Sun Sep 02, 2012 11:48 pm

Well I have taken photos of the progress of the birds(although 5 days is not much to go on). A 3rd chick hatched 4 days(saturday there were still 2 babies, on sunday there was a 3rd) or so after the 1st one and it also has red eyes. Has anyone heard of all chicks turning out to be females from 1 clutch(if it is the cinnamon factor)?

Well here are the pics. The first 2 were taken at 2 days, 1 with flash, 1 without.

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At 4 days

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At 5 days

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Time will tell

McmillanBirds · Post by **McmillanBirds** » Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:14 pm

and what are the odds of that!!! That would be something wouldn't it. I got the lutino hen as a baby(I got another 2 lutinos from the person 2 weeks later, both of them are hens too). At that stage I had no clue about mutations and genetics. When I went back to the pet store to see if they remembered the breeder they had got her from so that I could contact them and find out more on the history of the bird the guy said he couldn't remember who it was from.
The cinn clearhead fallow, he had been a rescue case, the people I had bought him from had said they had rescued a whole lot of birds off a place where they were not being fed, no water given etc and the farmer/breeder didn't want them anymore. Due to medical reasons they were now selling the bird and other birds. As you know I got him for R150. Sadly they have no clue on the genetic history. So, all in all its a matter of I wonder what will happen if I put you 2 together.
I did not pair these 2 birds together, they went together by themselves. I have them in a large avairy and walkway, I never closed the door between the 2 so they can fly between both, with another cock and hen. First time I had ever considered breeding birds this way. The other hen is blue and the other cock is turquoise blue. Both pairs have babies. They tolerate each other but are not keen when a bird from the opposite pair comes too close to the others box. Its actually quite strange, they sort of stick to their own sides of the avairy. I had said if they had shown signs of fighting I would close the door between the 2 but they co-exist quite nicely, and they know who is their partner and who isn't. The females will not let the opposite males near them.
I have a bench in the middle of my avaires(I have them arranged in a circle), and I love sitting and watching them. Its amazing to see how they behave and react to each other, and how intelligent they truly are. Just from feeding them and talking to them a couple have picked up words and whistles.
I will take more photos of the babies as they progress. It will be interesting to see the outcome. I don't know whether I should keep 1 baby or all of them and see how things turn out.

Eshana · Post by **Eshana** » Tue Sep 04, 2012 6:12 am

Hi Carmen

Your aviary must really be beautiful. I also enjoy sitting in my garden watching my birds. Thats 'my' time... a time to sit back, relax and de-stress...lol.. I have all my birds in a very large aviary (7 birds). 4 have paired (the others are females and I have to get male birds for them). Quite excited about Molossus's mutations, so I am going to take my time finding the male ringies (have to twist my hubby's arm for the money to purchase new birds) because I believe mutations are pretty expensive...

Please keep us updated on the colours of your new babies...like you I am intrigued and very impatient to find out what their colours are. Post more pics as they grow....

Cheers
Eshana

McmillanBirds · Post by **McmillanBirds** » Mon Sep 10, 2012 12:31 am

Here is the latest pic of the babies.

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You can't see it in the photo's but the eyes have started opening and they are the red of a typical ino.

Eshana · Post by **Eshana** » Mon Sep 10, 2012 12:43 am

Hi Carmen

Your babies have really grown...thrilled they have the red eyes. Can't wait to see what they look like when they feather out. Take care...

Cheers
Eshana

McmillanBirds · Post by **McmillanBirds** » Tue Sep 18, 2012 12:46 am

Hi all

Updates on the babies:
at 15 days

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at 19 days

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This pic was taken of the darkest ones wing. They all have clear toenails. 2 of the babies eyes have darkened fractionally, the youngests eyes are still bright.

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There is a slight greeny yellow tinge in the wings. Will be interesting to see the outcome

Eshana · Post by **Eshana** » Tue Sep 18, 2012 1:56 am

Hi Carmen

I am amazed at how light coloured your babies pin feathers are...and the clear toe nails. I can't wait to see what colour they turn out to be. Really intrigueing....

Cheers
Eshana

McmillanBirds · Post by **McmillanBirds** » Mon Sep 24, 2012 11:56 pm

Hi guys

An update on the babies. Pictures were taken yesterday, day 26. Here is where the pictures do not do the birds any justice because they look more yellow than what they truly are.

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Any ideas as yet?

Thanks
Carmen

Johan S · Post by **Johan S** » Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:10 am

Carmen, can you upload pictures of the parents again? Seems as if the chicks are heading towards lutino, which would mean that the cock is /ino.

McmillanBirds · Post by **McmillanBirds** » Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:19 am

Will try get of them this afternoon after work. Weather is a little cloudy here today so I hope it doesn't rain.

Lushen1600 · Post by **Lushen1600** » Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:24 am

Hi Johan, I also thought they were tending to look as lutino chicks, but if you look at how dark their eyes are, looks almost black, that would make me say that they are not lutino, so now the million dollar question would be, what are they?

Lushen1600 · Post by **Lushen1600** » Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:29 am

Ok now when I look again, some of the pics show red eyes, and some show black eyes, so I could be wrong, will have to wait and see

Thanks
Lushen

McmillanBirds · Post by **McmillanBirds** » Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:35 am

The photo that shows major red eyes the flash was on. Their eyes are still red but have deepened/dakened in colour. Toenails still clear.

Eshana · Post by **Eshana** » Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:37 am

Gosh Carmen

I am literally on the edge of my seat with anticipation of what they really are. Looking at their wings, they seem to have a creamy white colour on the ends (not all yellow). Amazing! Even the 'seasoned' guys are intrigued!

You have to keep them so we can get a picture update of what they turn out to be...

. Can't wait!

Kind Regards
Eshana

McmillanBirds · Post by **McmillanBirds** » Tue Sep 25, 2012 1:19 am

Hi Eshana

I am definitely keeping 1 baby, Lushen has been kind enough to agree to taking a baby as I had asked earlier for either a blue or grey pallidino baby from my Little Grey from his pair 2. So we will do a swop at some stage. Then I will sell the 3rd baby.

That way I will be able to see the outcomes in atleast 2 breeding environments.

smick · Post by **smick** » Tue Sep 25, 2012 4:45 am

Hi carmen,they look very similar to the green pallid chicks that i bred last year,which had the red eyes,ajd a yellow colour with a green tinge,thanks smick.

McmillanBirds · Post by **McmillanBirds** » Tue Sep 25, 2012 5:32 am

smick wrote:Hi carmen,they look very similar to the green pallid chicks that i bred last year,which had the red eyes,ajd a yellow colour with a green tinge,thanks smick.

Smick, to be honest I have to agree with you. For the last 2 days I have been thinking that perhaps the cock is /pallid. Then there will be:

1.0 green clearhead_fallow cinnamon /pallid
x 0.1 ino
% from all 1.0
50.0% 1.0 green /cinnamon ino clearhead_fallow
50.0% 1.0 green pallidIno /cinnamon clearhead_fallow
% from all 0.1
50.0% 0.1 green cinnamon /clearhead_fallow
50.0% 0.1 green pallid cinnamon /clearhead_fallow

IS it possible that on the first run only pallidino and pallid chicks though? I am not complaining if so. I suppose it could be. I have had 1 blue clutch of 5 out of my blue/cinn pallid cock and albino hen, the rest have all been a mix.

McmillanBirds · Post by **McmillanBirds** » Wed Sep 26, 2012 12:53 am

pictures

babies at day 27(yesterday)

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and now for the pictures of the parents. took quite a few(my camera battery died) so pease bare with me:

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Thanks for being so patient through all the photo's. hope they help. sadly photo's don't capture everything.

Lushen1600 · Post by **Lushen1600** » Wed Sep 26, 2012 1:09 am

Now I'm convinced that the cock bird is definitely a cinnamon clearhead fallow, would like to hear what others have to say, especially Johan, Molossus, Madas, Recio?

Thanks
Lushen

Johan S · Post by **Johan S** » Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:24 am

I think it is a green pallid. The green is a diluted form and isn't dark enough for cinnamon, and tends toward lime (one of the old names), but it is dark enough not to be pallidino. The colour in the flight feathers is tinted with enough grey to make me rule out cinnamon as well. The neck ring is dark grey with red, and this means that we are not dealing with a pallidino cock, where the neck ring would be a light grey and pink.

The important thing to notice will be that a pallid x ino pair will produce 100% red eyed chicks. This is also the simplest solution to your puzzle. Cocks will be palidino, hens will be pallid. Carmen, you should have a careful look at the colour of the eyes of the chicks. Are there a slight difference in the colour? All chicks should have an eye colour darker than the lutino mother. The pallid chicks (hens) will have an eye colour slightly darker than the brothers (pallidino). Pallid chicks will look like the father, and the pallidino cock chicks will show a yellow-green colour inbetween the pallid and ino colours.

McmillanBirds · Post by **McmillanBirds** » Wed Sep 26, 2012 3:12 am

Hi Johan

What is not shown in the photo's:

His green is actually a shade darker, including flights
His neck ring does not look black in reality either. Its slightly lighter. His red in the ring is basically how you see it.
Feet are the same as a lutinos basically.

Every time I took a photo it never came out the same shade of green that he is.
Hope that helps

Carmen

McmillanBirds · Post by **McmillanBirds** » Wed Sep 26, 2012 3:41 am

The picture where you can see the breeding box in the backround best shows the colour of his neck ring-the "black" part of it.

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McmillanBirds · Post by **McmillanBirds** » Wed Sep 26, 2012 3:51 am

My green pallid hen

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lime is in the backround of this image

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compared to:

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That's why I somehow don't believe he is pallid. I have had them both in the same avairy and they look so different

Johan S · Post by **Johan S** » Wed Sep 26, 2012 4:30 am

Carmen, we have a couple of phenotypes of pallid (I think four) in SA. Something else about them, sometimes we see that the cocks become slightly greener when they mature. It may also be that it is a darkgreen pallid, but it is rather pointless debating it in to much detail without have a chance to look at the birds as well. As you know, pictures can be difficult to interpret. Could you take some more pictures of that hen, particularly of the flights and tail feathers (with them nicely in focus). It will show nice how varied they can be when compared with the cock.

McmillanBirds · Post by **McmillanBirds** » Wed Sep 26, 2012 4:39 am

Will do

She is fairly tame so comes to me, and doesn't go in the opposite direction. More babies from them will also help clear the air.

McmillanBirds · Post by **McmillanBirds** » Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:14 am

Hi everyone

More pics on Lacey- she was more interested in seeing if I would bring her a tasty snack than in sitting with her back to me, so was a little difficult getting shots of her back.

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Eshana · Post by **Eshana** » Thu Sep 27, 2012 3:09 am

My God she is exquisitely beautiful Carmen. I am in awe at the variety of colours I have seen on this site. You must be one proud mama

.

Cheers
Eshana

McmillanBirds · Post by **McmillanBirds** » Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:56 pm

Thank you Eshana

These will be my last picture updates for a week. School holidays again.
Will be back with more updates on the 08/10

on day 30

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Thanks
Carmen

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Sat Sep 29, 2012 5:33 pm

Hi Carmen,

Beautiful babies and i am also inclined to believe that they are Pallid hens and Pallidino males .
The pallidinos aka Rainbows look really beautiful.

As you know, As far a Clearheaded Fallow you need both parents to be either colored or split in order to produce Cleaheaded Fallows.

McmillanBirds · Post by **McmillanBirds** » Sat Sep 29, 2012 6:00 pm

Hi Ring0Neck
I have no dout the babies are not clearhead. They have come out too light for that. I am trying to figure out the genetics to the parents as I have no history on them.
When I was told that the male was a most likely cinn clearhead fallow slightly earlier in the year(by a breeder that came to see my birds, and then on the forum) I had geared myself up to having only green and cinn green babies. When I opened the nest box up to see all the babies had light eyes I was completely flabbergasted.
So that was where my query came in.
Was the hen lutino/clearhead?
Was the cock cinn clearhead/ino?
Was the cock cinn clearhead/pallid?
OR is there something else going on?
I guess the only way to see if the cock is truly a clearhead is if over the next 2-3 clutches they have(whether it be a second clutch in a year or over the next 2-3 years) is if a green baby does come out of the pair. Then I would be able to know if the babies are indeed split for clearhead.

Regards
Carmen

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:27 am

Hi Carmen,

I agree with Johan

Male is Green Pallid X Ino hen

Outcome:
100.0% pallidIno males
Hens
100.0% pallid

A pic of a green clearheaded
http://parakeet.me/irn/greenbcup.jpg

have a good look at his eyes

Lushen1600 · Post by **Lushen1600** » Tue Oct 02, 2012 6:28 am

Hi Ring O Neck, I have personally seen the hen and can tell you that it is definitely a lutino and not a creamino

Thanks
Lushen

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Tue Oct 02, 2012 7:22 am

Yes, you're right, i had a look at the pics again and i have changed my comment to just ino before i have seen your reply

McmillanBirds · Post by **McmillanBirds** » Mon Oct 08, 2012 1:25 am

Hi everyone

Sadly ran out of time yesterday so did not take any recent pics.

Will take this afternoon and post tomorrow.

This pair has started laying again, so if the eggs are fertile and do hatch it will be interesting to see what colour the babies come out.

Thanks
Carmen

McmillanBirds · Post by **McmillanBirds** » Tue Oct 09, 2012 12:18 am

pic updates of babies

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I have done a wing and tail shot for each of the babies. will put the 2 together for each bird

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Thanks Carmen

Eshana · Post by **Eshana** » Tue Oct 09, 2012 2:19 am

Gosh Carmen, they are so beautiful. It must be just great watching your eggs hatch and then trying to figure out what the babies are going to look like....almost like opening up a surprise gift...

Incredible...

Cheers
Eshana

willowisp71 · Post by **willowisp71** » Tue Oct 09, 2012 3:14 am

Nawwwww!!! How cute are those babies!! I too, will wait with bated breath to see the outcome of the next clutch

myrka2004 · Post by **myrka2004** » Tue Oct 09, 2012 4:19 pm

McmillanBirds wrote:pic updates of babies

Thanks Carmen

They all so beautiful....