ID and suggested outcome please

Danny_nz · Post by **Danny_nz** » Sat Oct 15, 2011 3:19 pm

Hi Guys I'm new to breeding IRN's but not new to breeding and keeping birds hoping someone can ID what my birds are (as far as I know they are blue ?) and possibly what outcome I will get when my eggies hatch ? sorry I'm just not good with genetics and I am new to the site so sorry if I have asked something really dumb any assistance is appreciated.
I have had my pair for just over a month and they have started laying and sitting in the last week.

rod038 · Post by **rod038** » Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:22 am

They are Blue and if they arent split for anything then their young will be Blue as well.

Danny_nz · Post by **Danny_nz** » Sun Oct 16, 2011 3:10 am

at least one of them must be split gray if this is "correct", as the breeder I bought them off tells me they threw a couple of grays last season.
would this be a correct assumption ???

ad1671 · Post by **ad1671** » Sun Oct 16, 2011 5:01 am

Danny_nz wrote:at least one of them must be split gray if this is "correct", as the breeder I bought them off tells me they threw a couple of grays last season.
would this be a correct assumption ???

blue cant be split to grey....

Danny_nz · Post by **Danny_nz** » Sun Oct 16, 2011 11:08 am

so does that mean it would be impossible for these guys to throw gray chicks ? (ie: the breeder I got them from is leading me down the path?)

rod038 · Post by **rod038** » Sun Oct 16, 2011 1:18 pm

Yes, if they bred Grey Chicks one of them would of had to have been Grey.

myrka2004 · Post by **myrka2004** » Fri Oct 21, 2011 6:48 am

Wow...You have a such a beautiful pair of IRN. Best wish to have a cuties babies from them.

Danny_nz · Post by **Danny_nz** » Fri Oct 21, 2011 12:28 pm

why thank you, I fell in love with them straight away my hen is sitting on eggs at the moment hoping for some cute babies !

Danny_nz · Post by **Danny_nz** » Sun Nov 04, 2012 11:14 am

Been a while since I have been on here but quick update first successful breeding for me this season had a clutch of 6 eggs lost 4 to a late thunderstorm however luckily 2 survived and to my surprise I got 1 blue and 1 white. I was expecting the blue but not the white can anyone tell me what this means as far as my birds genetics are concerned or is it just an albino throw back ??i'll try get some photos up. Cheers

rod038 · Post by **rod038** » Sun Nov 04, 2012 12:57 pm

Your Cock bird must of been split to Ino. The white bird you bred would be a hen.

Danny_nz · Post by **Danny_nz** » Sun Nov 04, 2012 3:18 pm

Here's a link to pictures thanks for the reply about the split cocktail too.

http://db.tt/tff1SfYF

Danny_nz · Post by **Danny_nz** » Sun Nov 04, 2012 3:33 pm

Does that mean the blue chick will be a cock

king kong · Post by **king kong** » Mon Nov 05, 2012 1:35 am

Hi
Dear lovely Blue Pair but one thing which i doubt whether the net u used to built d cage is strong enough to hold them for long i mean their powerful beaks
u have to reconsider it not only for the parrot but also for intruders like snake, rodents etc
love ur pair

Danny_nz · Post by **Danny_nz** » Mon Nov 05, 2012 2:17 am

Ok first it's double layered inside frame and outside second no snakes in New Zealand third it's inspected regularly forth they have been living in this aviary for about 18 months now with no issues but thanks for your concern

willowisp71 · Post by **willowisp71** » Mon Nov 05, 2012 2:59 am

Awww! Congrats on your 2 surviving chicks. How beautiful! I have a mature blue male who we hope to breed one day down the track, and I can only hope that he has some hidden split mutation that might surprise us with some different coloured chicks. His betrothed is a cinnamon grey (aka silver) but won't be ready to breed for a couple of years yet. (Who know's, we might get impatient, and decide to get him a mature hen next year, and find another hubby for our cinnamon grey lass later

)

This is how the Genetics work for your pair:
1.0 blue /ino = blue split to ino cock
x 0.1 blue = blue hen
% from all 1.0 = possible cocks
50.0% 1.0 blue /ino = visually blue but split to ino (like father)
50.0% 1.0 blue = normal blue, no splits
% from all 0.1 = possible hens
50.0% 0.1 blue ino = albino......your female chick
50.0% 0.1 blue = normal blue no splits

So your albino chick is female, and your blue chick could female (no split), or could be male, either straight blue, or blue split to ino like the dad!

(although only getting 2 chicks from the pair this time may not tell the whole story, because there still could be other factors in the mix. You will know better after a few more clutches from this pair if you decide to keep them together).

PS; your blue boy looks almost exactly like mine

Danny_nz · Post by **Danny_nz** » Mon Nov 05, 2012 1:10 pm

Yup he's gorgeous allright and he knows it they are a well bonded pair I will never separate them. So next season may hold new surprises. Thanks for the info Deb

willowisp71 · Post by **willowisp71** » Mon Nov 05, 2012 9:07 pm

Your welcome

Good luck with next years breeding season. Will be interesting to see the outcome

Sherjil · Post by **Sherjil** » Sun Nov 11, 2012 10:52 am

Danny_nz wrote:Here's a link to pictures thanks for the reply about the split cocktail too.

http://db.tt/tff1SfYF

Hi;

The blue pair is gorgeous and congrats for the surprise albino chick !
suggestion, as the nest box is full of feces so its time to take out the chicks , clean the box and put new shavings this is to avoid any possible outbreak of disease. Please do investigate the poor hatch rate so that you make sure everything goes well next season . One reason might be that the pair was first timer and hopefully they will do better next season.
Best wishes for next season

Danny_nz · Post by **Danny_nz** » Sun Nov 11, 2012 11:27 am

Sherjil wrote:
Danny_nz wrote:Here's a link to pictures thanks for the reply about the split cocktail too.

http://db.tt/tff1SfYF

Hi;

The blue pair is gorgeous and congrats for the surprise albino chick !
suggestion, as the nest box is full of feces so its time to take out the chicks , clean the box and put new shavings this is to avoid any possible outbreak of disease. Please do investigate the poor hatch rate so that you make sure everything goes well next season . One reason might be that the pair was first timer and hopefully they will do better next season.
Best wishes for next season

yup noted on the nest box has been done since photo's taken.
Poor hatch rate I beleive is due to a late severe thunderstorm that occured during the laying period. I beleive that chicks can be killed in the eggs due to thunderstorms, this is what I have been told. The birds are a sucessfull pair that have been breeding for 2-3 years just my first season with them. thanks for the advice

Danny_nz · Post by **Danny_nz** » Sun Nov 11, 2012 10:53 pm

Link to newest pics of babies and parents
http://db.tt/95v50wTg

http://db.tt/uXseDIKD

Sold blue baby just deciding wether to sell the albino or not she's really placid i'm so tempted to keep her to tame up .

McmillanBirds · Post by **McmillanBirds** » Mon Nov 12, 2012 2:24 am

Hi

I am not sure if it because of the photos and lighting but does the albino baby have a light blue wash under the wings down its back toward the tail, and on its chest and stomach?

Regards
Carmen

willowisp71 · Post by **willowisp71** » Mon Nov 12, 2012 4:12 am

Carmen, I think you might be right!! Yes, it could just be the light......but it looks to me to have a blue tinge also!

Danny_nz · Post by **Danny_nz** » Mon Nov 12, 2012 10:18 am

slight blue tinge just on the back near the tail the other bits are just off the flash does this mean anything as far as mutaions etc ?? or is it just a strait albino ??

willowisp71 · Post by **willowisp71** » Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:00 am

Yes, if the white chick starts showing a developing blue tinge to those parts McMillanBirds mentioned, then it will alter the genetics of the parents a bit - I think.
Don't quote me on this, as I'm still learning the ropes myself, but I THINK Carmen might be wondering if your Albino chick is in fact a PallidIno cock.........I could be wrong though, still getting used to the way some mutations work....

willowisp71 · Post by **willowisp71** » Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:25 am

Nope!!! I take that back......forgot your white chick is a hen not a cock....and can't make that calculation work anyway to get a pallidino from 2 blue parents.

Will have to put my thinking cap on!

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:20 am

Danny

Your bird is not an Albino.
I think (unless your pics lie) the 2 parents are visual Dom. Edged or Dilute. or similar
Your blue chick is same as parents however your white bird i think it is Double Factor Edge Dilute (let's call it Dilute)
It is still bizzare how the breeder told you they bred greys... that could only mean 1 thing:
Your pair could in fact Dom. Edged or Dilute Cobalts.
The grey were in fact Mauve Dom. Edged Blue or Dilute (very rare birds indeed)
I do not have these mutations but working on references only.

** Can you take a picture of the white bird's nails? and tell us what color you can visually see?
Don't get too excited too early, that's what it looks like to me from the pics you posted.
the only way this is an albino if your photos don't show the real colors, try also without the flash.

Ben

Sherjil · Post by **Sherjil** » Sun Nov 18, 2012 10:47 am

Ring0Neck wrote:Danny

Your bird is not an Albino.
I think (unless your pics lie) the 2 parents are visual Dom. Edged or Dilute. or similar
Your blue chick is same as parents however your white bird i think it is Double Factor Edge Dilute (let's call it Dilute)
It is still bizzare how the breeder told you they bred greys... that could only mean 1 thing:
Your pair could in fact Dom. Edged or Dilute Cobalts.
The grey were in fact Mauve Dom. Edged Blue or Dilute (very rare birds indeed)
I do not have these mutations but working on references only.

** Can you take a picture of the white bird's nails? and tell us what color you can visually see?
Don't get too excited too early, that's what it looks like to me from the pics you posted.
the only way this is an albino if your photos don't show the real colors, try also without the flash.

Ben

Hi Ben;

Correct me if I am wrong but the snap shows the white chick has red eyes, does edged dilute birds also have red eyes ?

Sherjil

Danny_nz · Post by **Danny_nz** » Sun Nov 18, 2012 2:35 pm

Ring0Neck wrote:Danny

Your bird is not an Albino.
I think (unless your pics lie) the 2 parents are visual Dom. Edged or Dilute. or similar
Your blue chick is same as parents however your white bird i think it is Double Factor Edge Dilute (let's call it Dilute)
It is still bizzare how the breeder told you they bred greys... that could only mean 1 thing:
Your pair could in fact Dom. Edged or Dilute Cobalts.
The grey were in fact Mauve Dom. Edged Blue or Dilute (very rare birds indeed)
I do not have these mutations but working on references only.

** Can you take a picture of the white bird's nails? and tell us what color you can visually see?
Don't get too excited too early, that's what it looks like to me from the pics you posted.
the only way this is an albino if your photos don't show the real colors, try also without the flash.

Ben

Feet are pink to white nails are clear and eyes are red more pics up soon. Just trying to get her settled with being handled she/ it is such a sweet thing not bitey at all like her sibling who bites alot and hard too

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Sun Nov 18, 2012 4:32 pm

Based on what you've described then the bird is Albino maybe more.
I saw light grey nails in the pic. my bad if not so. Does it have red eyes? or was it the flash?
Red eyes also points towards Albino or a fallow, but i still want to see pics without flash if you can.

Albino has a slight tinge of blue on the white feathers but i have never seen that much, unless your camera does it somehow.
I have a 5 y old Albino masking violet and with a Cannon DSLR i can not get the blue tinge. I have 5 week old albino no blue whatsoever.
I can upload pic later if need.

** Dilute pics: if both birds are split Dilute
http://www.mcw-indianringnecks.com.au/g ... e_cock.htm
http://www.mcw-indianringnecks.com.au/g ... e_cock.htm
http://home.wanadoo.nl/psittaculaworld/ ... Dilute.htm

It is always better to be sure then sorry, explore every posibility, if you find out later you've had rare mutations or new combos say Dilute Ino but sold off the birds for peanuts.

Ben

Lushen1600 · Post by **Lushen1600** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 9:32 am

Hi, I don't think both the parents are dominant edge, and I think the lighting in certain photographs is making the flights look like that of a dominant edge, but I could be wrong, if both the parent were visual dominant edge, then the blue chick should also be visual dominant edge which is not being shown on the blue chicks flights

The chick which is thought to be albino could in my opinion also be a blue pallid hen, and I stand to be corrected but there is quite a lot of blue in that chick in the last pic of the chicks, so that would make the dad a blue/pallid and the mom blue. As for them being dilute, not too sure about that one as many dilute that I have seen look like totally washed out blues, almost like a pale blue, even more lighter than a blue cinnamon.

Thanks
Lushen

Johan S · Post by **Johan S** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 11:55 am

Lushen1600 wrote:Hi, I don't think both the parents are dominant edge, and I think the lighting in certain photographs is making the flights look like that of a dominant edge, but I could be wrong, if both the parent were visual dominant edge, then the blue chick should also be visual dominant edge which is not being shown on the blue chicks flights

The chick which is thought to be albino could in my opinion also be a blue pallid hen, and I stand to be corrected but there is quite a lot of blue in that chick in the last pic of the chicks, so that would make the dad a blue/pallid and the mom blue. As for them being dilute, not too sure about that one as many dilute that I have seen look like totally washed out blues, almost like a pale blue, even more lighter than a blue cinnamon.

Thanks
Lushen

Hi Lushen, I agree with you that these birds aren't dominant edged. They grey wash is a bit more than I'm used to, but that is probably just variation. Actually, it reminds me of SF misty, but this is not it or highly unlikely. But like you said, probably just the lighting in certain pics. However, you said if both parents were dominant edged, the chicks would be too. This isn't strictly true, they could still produce normal hens. I know, it might sound bizarre, but totally possible for a SF SL dom. edged cock x SF SL dom. edged hen.

As for the white chick, the ino mutation does not remove all melanin, but certainly most of it. This might be a case that the parents (to me at least) show a slightly darker and more grey shade than normal blues and was inherited by the chicks. Sometimes when albino is masking cobalt and/or violet, we can still see it in the ino offspring. One just need to investigate them in various light conditions, like full sun and deep shade.

Lushen1600 · Post by **Lushen1600** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 12:50 pm

Hi Johan, mistake on my side, that's what happens when a newbie like me tries to calculate outcomes in my head without using the calculator, now on double checking with the calculator I find that you are correct, there is a percentage of normal blue chicks without the dominant edge in both hens and cocks. Will double check in the future with the gencalc just to make sure.

As for ino not removing all the melanin, I know what you mean as I have an albino, that I got from Carmen who got the albino from another breeder, and by looking at this albino closely find that it has a blue sheen to its feathering, but the albino that I have bred for now doesn't seem to have this blue sheen yet, I ignored that when I gave my answer as I thought that the camera would not be able to pick up the blue sheen of an albino as it is so light and would have to be looked at very closely to identify

Thanks
Lushen

Lushen1600 · Post by **Lushen1600** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 12:55 pm

Hi also forgot to mention by looking at the colour of the feet and nails of the parents, I would also think that there is a possibility of visual cinnamon in the parents. That would explain the grey wash on these birds

Thanks
Lushen

Johan S · Post by **Johan S** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 11:19 pm

Lushen1600 wrote:Hi Johan, mistake on my side, that's what happens when a newbie like me tries to calculate outcomes in my head without using the calculator, now on double checking with the calculator I find that you are correct, there is a percentage of normal blue chicks without the dominant edge in both hens and cocks. Will double check in the future with the gencalc just to make sure.

No worries, Lushen. Another thing to point out though, is that the calculator also gives an incorrect answer.

The mutation seems to be sex linked dominant, i.e. one gets SF/DF cocks, but only ever SF hens (that look like DF cocks!). Now you may ask, why only SF hens? For the same reason that we only get pallidino cocks. A hen can only carry one mutant sex-linked gene (pallid or ino). I know, it is very confusing! It works like sex linked ino, but rather than recessive split cocks, one breeds SF edged cocks (i.e. one mutant gene). Wildtype x SF edged will give 1-0 100% SF edged and 0-1 wildtype hens. . We have never bred an edged hen from such a pairing. At least, that has been our experience, and it seems to be shared by many others.

Lushen1600 · Post by **Lushen1600** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 11:29 pm

Ok thanks Johan, so that means my pairing of a Dominant edge blue cinnamon if he is sf edge to a wildtype hen will give me 1.0 100% wildtype and 0.1 100% sf edge.

So what if he is df edge?

Thanks
Lushen

Johan S · Post by **Johan S** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 4:19 am

Lushen1600 wrote:Ok thanks Johan, so that means my pairing of a Dominant edge blue cinnamon if he is sf edge to a wildtype hen will give me 1.0 100% wildtype and 0.1 100% sf edge.

So what if he is df edge?

Thanks
Lushen

Lushen, not quite. A split ino cock can breed the ino mutation to both male and female offspring. Similarly:

SF edged x wildtype will give
1-0
50% SF edged
50% wildtype
0-1
50% SF edged
50% wildtype

and DF edged x wildtype will give
1-0
100% SF edged
0-1
100% SF edged

DF edged cocks can only be achieved by using an edged cock and hen.

sheyd · Post by **sheyd** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 4:48 am

Those birds (of the op's) don't have the coloured feet I'd expect for a normal blue.

DavidAdelaide · Post by **DavidAdelaide** » Tue Jan 01, 2013 12:43 am

I also noticed the foot colour immediately when I looked at the picture. Is that an indicator that they are split to ino?

willowisp71 · Post by **willowisp71** » Wed Jan 02, 2013 7:20 pm

I've just compared the feet on my blue cock with those of the birds in the pics above, and although the nail colour is identical, the flesh colour of the two birds above definitely seem a little bit 'pinker' than my boy's feet. My bird has greyer feet, but not dark. I'm starting to wonder if my boy us a lot older than we first thought, also. The flesh on his feet seems to be a lot drier than our female IRN, but then she IS only a baby still (4 months).

As I said in a previous post above, my cock birds colours (feathers) matches almost exactly that of the cock bird above, so I too would be interested in knowing if there is another mutation at play here

sheyd · Post by **sheyd** » Wed Jan 02, 2013 8:39 pm

That's what I thought Willow- the nails look 'right' but the feet are pink/y rather than grey. (I also compared to my normal blue- see my avatar- that's him as a baby)