Has the saddleback code been cracked ?

[prodigy]

I said quit some time ago that a saddleback was a combination of edged and harlequin.

See the results of Mr Kippie Herholdt of South Africa's breeding: The bird is a Dominant pied+ SL Edged blue turq cock. The father is Dominant pied blue turq and mother is SL Edged violet. ( no"SADDLE BACK" ) And no Opaline in it.

[Mad Max]

Peter

I think it has , certenly looks the part

[Ring0Neck]

Peter,

Do you have front view pics?

Thanks

[Farzz1]

Hi All
Unfortunately I can’t agree the variation of turquoise is spread all over the bird and hence I am still sticking to my guns that only turquoise would cause that variegation in the bird I have yet not seen any other bird with the saddle on its own out of the harlequin mutation
Sorry I still disagree , i will try and post some pics in comparision and hence note that they all turq in them and hence the saddle
Regards S

[Farzz1]

Hi
I don’t know the owners of the birds but surly my point across is that these recessive pied possess turquoise and hence the saddle, the first pic is a dominant sl edged recessive pied and the last pic is a grey harlequin all the birds have been bred with turquoise the bigger question is has there been a breeder that has bred a saddle back without turquoise i.e. a blue pied with a concentration of white as a saddle on the back without turquoise?
Regards S

[madas]

Yesterday i got the info that the frist org. OZ violet saddleback has thrown two "saddletype turq" violet blues. Pic will be provided then i got the permission.
So the statement that the saddlebacks don't breed normal (non-pied) turq birds isn't correct any more.

madas

[Johan S]

Thanks for confirming, Madas.

[Ring0Neck]

Yesterday i got the info that the frist org. OZ violet saddleback has thrown two "saddletype turq" violet blues. Pic will be provided then i got the permission.
So the statement that the saddlebacks don't breed normal (non-pied) turq birds isn't correct any more.

madas

Any Edged or Opaline offspring from that bird?

Pretty sure i asked this Q last year & answer was no.

[Farzz1]

hi
Madas does the bird have turq in it ?
if it does then its pointless because the turq is what complements the saddle
Regards

[madas]

Yesterday i got the info that the frist org. OZ violet saddleback has thrown two "saddletype turq" violet blues. Pic will be provided then i got the permission.
So the statement that the saddlebacks don't breed normal (non-pied) turq birds isn't correct any more.

madas

Any Edged or Opaline offspring from that bird?

Pretty sure i asked this Q last year & answer was no.

Until now not. Breeding result is from 2012 and only 5 youngsters. After leaving the nest the two violet blue birds looked like normal violet blues. After first big moult they got there "turq saddle". If i have correctly understood the breeder.

hi
Madas does the bird have turq in it ?
if it does then its pointless because the turq is what complements the saddle
Regards

Which bird? The mother (is the very first saddleback breed by GB in OZ; parents 1,0 violetgreen /??? x 0,1 dom. pied blue) or the youngsters?

Main reason for posting the result is that the "saddleback" was supposed to throw only "saddlebacks", dom. pieds and normal non turq looking birds. This was one of the main sales arguments. Which now should be disproved. So don't know what your question aims???

madas

[Farzz1]

Sorry I think I have been misunderstood that the term saddle back cannot be approached as the saddle only appears in the turquoise birds and in no other birds my question was is there been any other breeder that has bred the saddleback without the turquoise in the bird ?
Secondly from my understanding the saddle appears in the turquoise harlequins or it variations however the statement saddleback producing saddleback i.e. as if its dominant in saddleback only should have been ruled off a long time ago as that in any pairing of harlequin paired to turquoise and turquoise harlequin paired to a normal bird the off-spring will vary ,the so called saddleback is not the dominance in the harlequin it’s the stain of the turquoise that makes the saddle appear pronounced depending on its strain and depending on how many it carries through on the off-spring
Regards

[Ring0Neck]

Yesterday i got the info that the frist org. OZ violet saddleback has thrown two "saddletype turq" violet blues. Pic will be provided then i got the permission.
So the statement that the saddlebacks don't breed normal (non-pied) turq birds isn't correct any more.

madas

Any Edged or Opaline offspring from that bird?

Pretty sure i asked this Q last year & answer was no.

Until now not. Breeding result is from 2012 and only 5 youngsters. After leaving the nest the two violet blue birds looked like normal violet blues. After first big moult they got there "turq saddle". If i have correctly understood the breeder.

If so, it makes sense.
Seldomly breeders would hold back say a normal blue nowadays, but sell it off before the 1st year moult, meaning they sell it off before parblue manifests itself.

As Chris & Bob said "some kind of Parblue", it sure is different as it only manifests much later as Madas is pointing out.
Is it a TurquoiseBlue or is it a Parblue different again

[madas]

I got the permission (great thx goes to Bob) to post the pic mentioned earlier. So here it is:

parents:



offspring:




madas

[prodigy]

Hi
I don’t know the owners of the birds but surly my point across is that these recessive pied possess turquoise and hence the saddle, the first pic is a dominant sl edged recessive pied and the last pic is a grey harlequin all the birds have been bred with turquoise the bigger question is has there been a breeder that has bred a saddle back without turquoise i.e. a blue pied with a concentration of white as a saddle on the back without turquoise?
Regards S

The Pieds you have posted pictures of are not all recessive, the progressive pied in the collection that you have posted is a form of dominant pied

[madas]

the progressive pied in the collection that you have posted is a form of dominant pied

Are you sure? I would define it as a kind of "mottle" pied which then is a multifactorial recessive mutation(-combination) according to MUTAVI.

[Ring0Neck]

Thanks Madas & Bob for the info/pics.

Recio, where are you?




Looking at the 3 pieds non of them look the same, all 3 have different amount of yellow/green saddle, do you know the sexes of the offspring?
could it be influenced by the structurals? LtoR
Violet Parblue Pied, Cobalt Parblue Pied, ParBlue Pied

[madas]

Thanks Madas & Bob for the info/pics.

Recio, where are you?




Looking at the 3 pieds non of them look the same, all 3 have different amount of yellow/green saddle, do you know the sexes of the offspring?
could it be influenced by the structurals? LtoR
Violet Parblue Pied, Cobalt Parblue Pied, ParBlue Pied

3 males 2 female. Among them 1,1 "parblue" violetblue.
Unfortunately i don't have an info on the sex of the pieds. But i would say the bird far left is a male and the one far right is a female.

btw: there is no cobalt bird on the pic.

[Johan S]

If so, it makes sense.
Seldomly breeders would hold back say a normal blue nowadays, but sell it off before the 1st year moult, meaning they sell it off before parblue manifests itself.

As Chris & Bob said "some kind of Parblue", it sure is different as it only manifests much later as Madas is pointing out.
Is it a TurquoiseBlue or is it a Parblue different again

Ben, if I were a betting man, I would bet good money those birds have just past their 3 month (first summer) moult. Even at the 15 month moult, that green saddle starts spreading rapidly. At least that is the case for the normal turquoise parblue.

the progressive pied in the collection that you have posted is a form of dominant pied

Are you sure? I would define it as a kind of "mottle" pied which then is a multifactorial recessive mutation(-combination) according to MUTAVI.

Madas, I agree. The problem is that most breeders don't consider polygenic inheritance, and most books on ringnecks don't cover it. However, the mottled mutation also occurs in Splendid parakeets and lovebirds (I think?), and there one considers the mottled to be polygenic (if you are adventurous), or dominant if you want to keep it simple and straightforward. So dominant isn't so far from the truth, and it is even advised by some authors. Another "interesting" thing is, in SA, many breeders considers any type of pied with a neckring as 'dominant', even when they clearly breed only split pied offspring (i.e. no visual pieds) from such a pied paired to a normal bird. I agree with what you are probably thinking now. It doesn't make sense, but that's the way they describe it.

Looking at the 3 pieds non of them look the same, all 3 have different amount of yellow/green saddle, do you know the sexes of the offspring?
could it be influenced by the structurals? LtoR
Violet Parblue Pied, Cobalt Parblue Pied, ParBlue Pied

Ben, my hypothesis is that the amount of psittacin is directly controlled by the exact hormone levels present while the bird is moulting. The variation is therefore due to how quickly each individual develops.

[Deon Smith]

To crack this code will take a lot of sensible breeding and collation. In my humble view, a Saddleback is a certain morph, it's not a mutation per se but is probably a combo, of a Dom Pied with a certain pied pattern, combined with a Parblue. But what Parblue, and why is the percentage of Parblue (unlinked with the Dom Pied) so low? It took a while before we saw those Parblues. The essence of a Saddleback in my view is not the saddle (Dom Pied part) but rather the intense and rich yellow psittacins we see (Parblue part), and this will be my fact-finding mission from this coming breeding season. Guter Freund, nicht beeinträchtigt warden!

For starters, if we take a Saddleback morphological type and remove melanin, we may get an indication of it's psittacin distribution.

Below is a Saddleback Harlequin (DF) where the combo does just that, excepting the head area, this must make do in the absence of Saddleback Ino's. It should be compared to Turq Ino, but I don't have one, somebody?

Saddleback Harlequin (DF).jpg (62.7 KiB) Viewed 20406 times

The background layer of even psittacin is evident, and then the foreground patched psittacin layer of phenomenal richness and intensity.
Now is this part of all the different Parblue morphs we know? Considering the obvious patching already in the nest, not at 3 months or whatever, and getting even more robust.

Why the low figure of Parblue from it? This is not the case with all the known Parblues I know. Does this sound like maybe a Parblue from another locus, and LINKAGE??

Your views (and images of Turq Ino's, Stefan)?

Deon

[Johan S]

Doc, this certainly is a riddle that has created a lot of talk. When one considers the violet 'saddleback' hen of Bob earlier in this topic, and some of the offspring, it is clear that there is a lot of variability in the "richness and intensity" of the yellow saddle region. There also seem to be some melanin deposited in the saddle region of the birds showing a less rich yellow. I don't know if genetic linkage is at play, but it does seem as if melanin production influences the final resulting psittacin of the region. This is also present in the pictures you have uploaded in the topic What is this dark Violet?. The blue and violet dom. pieds in that topic is certainly going to produce a better looking 'saddleback' than a pied with melanin in that region.

Regarding the parblues, I don't think they are that rare. Criskoi uploaded such parblue examples in dilute (a fairly good alternative to creamino) that would assist in your study of the morph. One can not deny that the bird in the back shares the same "richness" in yellow.


My believe is that the 'saddleback' is only an overlap of circumstance (or good selection of mutations to combine): 1) a melanin free saddle region, and 2) a psittacin rich saddle region parblue type. If one really wants to enhance the effect, 3) introduce melanin deposition in the wing coverts, which should again reduce the intensity of any psittacin deposited there, creating a good contrast in yellow.

[Deon Smith]

Regarding the parblues, I don't think they are that rare.

Johan, I was actually referring to the rarity of Parblue offspring from a saddleback morph, like the Violet Parblues we have seen in the pictures of Bob Irvine.

Of huge interest to me, is the parblues with the central concentrated psittacins, unlike the parblues we are acquainted to, that has a main wing bar of pittacin deposition. I remember a discussion on this some time ago when Stefan described a type of parblues in Europe with this property.

Deon

[Johan S]

Doc, I can throw around some ideas to explain the low number of parblue non dom. pied offspring from the saddlebacks, but the fact is I don't know for sure. If the psittacin distribution is caused by a parblue of the blue locus (which I believe it is), then a linkage would also be observed in the offspring of a green dom. pied/blue x blue, (similar to the dark gene, and then a linkage with dark should also exist), which I have never heard reported in any species (linkage of dom. pied and blue/dark). Some other explanations are statistic variation and a too small population to derive meaningful statistics/numbers (I don't know how many offspring have been produced), or incorrect reporting on the offspring.

As for the saddle type parblue of Europe that Stefan mentioned, it isn't that rare in SA. We breed a number of them from our opalines each year, and I've seen them in the aviaries of many of the breeders I get to visit. They breed true to type, too. I had a good collection of pictures, but unfortunately I've lost a lot of my pictures in a recent break-in.

[Deon Smith]

Thank you Johan, this is what I was seeking.

What is your observation, in these saddle types, of the presence of parblue coloration while till in the nest, and its evolution further on?

Deon

[madas]

Thank you Johan, this is what I was seeking.

What is your observation, in these saddle types, of the presence of parblue coloration while till in the nest, and its evolution further on?

Deon

Hi Deon,

for the "Europe type" the youngsters show only some spots of green on the wing coverts then they are leaving the nest. After youth moult they get a little green triangle in the neck. After first big moult the triangle is growing and is nearly reaching the wing area and the green spots on the wing coverts develop to a green patch. But the patches and the triangle aren't merged until the adult moult.

greetings.

[Johan S]

Hi Doc,

here is a collection of 2013 birds in their juvenile moult out the nest.

First, our typical turquoise parblue:


A collection of saddle type turquoise parblues




With all of the ones my dad and I have bred, they have shown a distinct saddle by their first "end of summer" moult. Most of them show a few patched green feathers in the saddle region straight out the nest, although I have bred a mauve hen that didn't show it immediately. It seems to share that trait with normale turquoise parblues.

[Ring0Neck]

My TurquoiseBlues that have a saddle

At fledging they had the normal green on the wings etc, as any turquoise does

Correction: 6 months old, the saddle appeared and increased within the next couple of months
2 siblings below:





Hi Res pics
http://parakeet.me/irn/m/em/turqq.jpg
http://parakeet.me/irn/m/em/turq.jpg

** Note: Out of 5 siblings 3 have the saddle and little else, 1 has the saddle + heavy psittacin on wings as well.
5th sold and psittacin was not visible when it was taken, although pretty sure mother was Homo. Turq and the 5th will probably show psittacin later on

PS: The 2 young before the saddle
All 4 young showed psittacin since feathering in the nest making it easy to ID as Turquoise.

[Carr.birds]

Chris ask me to post this for him. He is having a problems connecting to the Forum. Please contact him via email if you want to respond to his post.

We have now been breeding the Wrongly Named Saddleback since 2009 simple maths will show theres been over 100 birds breed from the original 4 violet saddlebacks in that time .It was always said that saddlebacks would never be excepted as something special as they have never morphed onto a normal blue series bird, Now they have and now you say this proves they are only Turquoise.

To breed 2 normal violet turquoise from 4 different owners at least 4 different parents over 4 breeding seasons and well over a 100 babies from a mutation that is said to produce 50% turquoise just seems mathermatically wrong to me.

What ive said over the years is i Simply Dont Deleive These Birds Are Turquoise , as shown in these pictures.As with all nest of saddlebacks it does raise some questions .

1 Are these 2 in a 100 babies simply Turquoise .

2.Why such low % rate in reproduction

3 .Why are all saddlebacks born visual in the nest.

5 .Why do saddlebacks have 4 colour changes = 1 born visual +at three months as some turquoise do + 8 ths this is when my hen showed her saddle an unusual time for normal tourquoise i would have thought. , And around 1 year when she fully coloured ,All turquoise show some of these colour changes ,Thats why they were named 3 types. Turquoise [ visual in nest ], Indigo shows colour at baby molt 3 months ]and Saphire [shows colour at molt 1yr old approx.]., but i dought they ever show all these changes ., or to the extent or degree.

6.Why is my saddleback hen almost a solid colour ,i thought torquoise were patchy.

7.Why has there never been a saddleback born from a green series bird breed from saddleback, there has been a lot of green series birds breed ,as Deons nest on Dark resent post shows ,they were from my green harlequin breed from saddleback.

8, Why hasnt a blue or violet harlequin ever developed into a saddleback after leaving the nest as you would expect from a normal torquoise, that happens in cleartails and normal blue sereis birds that ive seen.

9Why is the colours so rich as Deon points out ,ive never realated that to turquoise.

As with my larst post i suggested we wait until Deons And Tienies breeding results ,They both have visual saddlebacks , They both have Green Harlequins breed from saddleback ,They both have knowledge with other things like SL,Edge .

Larst to photoes shoe DF Harlequin in Turquoise and Emerold for comparision.

On another note ive read on a different post where S,Africians expect to be flooded with cheaper birds exported from Australia this is very unlikely ,I personally will never send Ringnecks to South Africa again , I do know a number of other breeders that have tried and either given up as it is simply so hard to do , or was simply to expensive. My larst shippment took so long i actually breed the birds and sent there babies as well.Two shippments took 18 months to acheive.There were also rumours that 10 Emerolds were sent larst year from Sydney , That was simpley lies to destable the market by silly people.

Tienie

[Ring0Neck]

Tienie asked me to upload these pics from Chris to go with the above post
not sure the order of the pics

Blue DF Harlequin Saddleback








Emerald DF Harlequin


Harlequin DF Grey Turquoise


In below pic Chris is showing us the differences between
Emerald DF Harlequin TO DF Harlequin Saddleback TO DF Harlequin Turquoise