A blue puzzle

[Johan S]

At some stage the forum was discussing various blue phenotypes. So here are some pictures.

Bird 1


Bird 2


Comparison


I'm sure most will agree, it will be hard for most breeders, even the experienced ones, to distinguish between these two birds when they are not next to one another.

Now let's test the mettle of our members. The question and riddle, what are we looking at?

[madas]

One is SA "Deep" blue and the other Misty Violetblue.

[Ring0Neck]

One is SA "Deep" blue and the other Misty Violetblue.

I agree

If wrong second option is: Both are of the same mutation (one could be SF one DF) or one carries different structural mutations than the other.
Left Violet? Right Cobalt?
I think you have these birds noted same as Madas's reply. but are they?

[Anthony anth Mc Geer]

NT Deep and cobalt

[Gratz]

I would have said
bird 1 SA Deep and bird 2 misty violet
but yes without them side by side it would be very difficult to tell, they both look like deep blue

[sheyd]

I'll go with both are of the same mutation but are expressing it slightly differently due to unknown factors.. until I see a picture from behind

[Johan S]

Interesting guesses by all, but I suggest everyone look at the very first sentence again. We are looking at blue birds, no cobalt, violet or NT deep. Not yet, in any case...

Let's give it another go.

[Anthony anth Mc Geer]

One on the Right normal blue?

[Ring0Neck]

Are we looking at Oz Deep V Blue?

[Johan S]

Ok, so moving on a bit. The one on the right is a normal blue. Second one is something different, most likely structural. It is a more vibrant blue and only so ever slightly darker. Let's keep things going for a while. What am I?

[Anthony anth Mc Geer]

Yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I got the one on the right right hahahahaha.....this is even a better game than ps3

[Sanzaf1]

Greetings all
Very interesting bird Johan he is lighter then the cobalt yet darker then a blue.
Im gna say oz deep aswel
Will b unteresting to see what hebis exactly
@ ant -uve being missing out mate

Many thanks

[Mad Max]

I would go with a Misty , I would like to see the back of both birds

[Indian Ringneck Vic]

Hi my guess is blue 2 on right and blue 1 one left this observation was first commented by Babu some years ago where he pointed to b1 as being the normal expression until the parblue mutations started producing the b2 he also pointed to both phenotype were difficult to pick when seperated this brings us back to blue evolution theory.

[madas]

Hi my guess is blue 2 on right and blue 1 one left this observation was first commented by Babu some years ago where he pointed to b1 as being the normal expression until the parblue mutations started producing the b2 he also pointed to both phenotype were difficult to pick when seperated this brings us back to blue evolution theory.

Any source which is showing this observation? Never heart of this from Babu.

[Johan S]

Hi my guess is blue 2 on right and blue 1 one left this observation was first commented by Babu some years ago where he pointed to b1 as being the normal expression until the parblue mutations started producing the b2 he also pointed to both phenotype were difficult to pick when seperated this brings us back to blue evolution theory.

Paul, this is an interesting idea and at the conclusion of the puzzle, will have a lot of relevance. However, like Madas, I'm hoping that there exists some more background. The only reference I have to Babu and two different blues is the article written by Babu on his account of the emeralds bred by his friend Bala in the early '90s. As mentioned, the second blue turned out to be emerald, and not blue.

I'm not exactly sure what you refer to as blue evolution theory. It is important, however, to keep in mind that blue removes or inhibits the ability to produce psittacin (yellow) in parrots/parakeets, so there is no reason (that I know of, but I don't know everything, that's for sure) to believe that blue1 and blue2 would look any different. Once we remove all psittacins (blue1 or blue2), and observe a difference, like in the birds photographed, we are in all likelihood looking at something other than the blue mutation, and rather a structural mutation or melanistic mutation.

[Johan S]

I would go with a Misty , I would like to see the back of both birds

OK, so seeing as we don't have any more participants, the first prize goes to Robert.

What we are looking at is a blue misty cock. It is not a strongly marked misty, but the misty shimmering is certainly there when the bird moves into the shadow. Notice the brighter, more brilliant blue colour.

But, the puzzle isn't complete. Let's enter a third participant. Unfortunately a youngster being compared to mature birds, but still interesting enough. The slaty effect on the wings is damage due to handraising and can be safely ignored. Continue to compare the base colour of the bellies.

Bird 3



What am I?

Hint: Not blue, not misty.

[Lushen1600]

Well I will go with -----?

Thanks
Lushen

[Lushen1600]

Here's some pics of a blue turq, is the chest/bellies similar to what you looking at in the blue male and young blue bird







Thanks
Lushen

[Indian Ringneck Vic]

Hi
I refer to Terry Martin's theory re duplication of the blue locus Deon Smith book 2012 page 72 there is a better publication on this subject printed elsewhere but I need to find it .This information is readily available and is regularly discussed locally around here I'm surprised you haven't come across it. Will send a copy to Johan and he might publish it for me as I have had no luck.
Cheers
Paul

[Recio]

Hi my guess is blue 2 on right and blue 1 one left this observation was first commented by Babu some years ago where he pointed to b1 as being the normal expression until the parblue mutations started producing the b2 he also pointed to both phenotype were difficult to pick when seperated this brings us back to blue evolution theory.

Paul, this is an interesting idea and at the conclusion of the puzzle, will have a lot of relevance. However, like Madas, I'm hoping that there exists some more background. The only reference I have to Babu and two different blues is the article written by Babu on his account of the emeralds bred by his friend Bala in the early '90s. As mentioned, the second blue turned out to be emerald, and not blue.

I'm not exactly sure what you refer to as blue evolution theory. It is important, however, to keep in mind that blue removes or inhibits the ability to produce psittacin (yellow) in parrots/parakeets, so there is no reason (that I know of, but I don't know everything, that's for sure) to believe that blue1 and blue2 would look any different. Once we remove all psittacins (blue1 or blue2), and observe a difference, like in the birds photographed, we are in all likelihood looking at something other than the blue mutation, and rather a structural mutation or melanistic mutation.

Hi Johan,

You are rigth saying that Blue-1 and Blue-2 should show the same phenotype but we should keep in mind that the neighbour genes of each Blue are different, and whenever a gene acting on the final colour phenotype is located near one of the Blue genes (linked), it will be inherited as a single unit, and the apparent final phenotype could be different.

In this line of thougth, and following Babu's ideas, I am wandering if what we call Emerald could be a combo of a blue or parblue mutation (Aqua type?) highly linked to an structural mutation producing the specific non psittacin dependent features (iridescence, fluorescence, non age or hormone dependency,...).

Time will tell us.

Best regards

Recio

[Johan S]

You are rigth saying that Blue-1 and Blue-2 should show the same phenotype but we should keep in mind that the neighbour genes of each Blue are different, and whenever a gene acting on the final colour phenotype is located near one of the Blue genes (linked), it will be inherited as a single unit, and the apparent final phenotype could be different.

Recio, welcome back! Where have you been hiding out?

Although in principle what your are saying makes a lot of sense, I don't think I necessarily agree with everything for the specific example. The blue gene doesn't produce the blue colour, but rather influences the production of psittacin (or making the psittacin molecule ineffective). And with psittacin production considered later in the metabolic pathway, after melanin and feather structure has been put in place, I don't think it will influence the base blue colour resulting from melanin and feather nano-structure. However, the "apparent psittacin" (say an inefficient one, but not completely removed one) deposited is another matter (the deep mutation might fit in here), where your point is true. One last thought, when we consider blue1 and blue2 to be allelic like in the budgerigar (and not at different locii), then the neighbouring genes will be the same for both blue types.

Thoughts?

[Indian Ringneck Vic]

Hi Recio what I mean by blue evolution was extracted from T Martin first publication where he explained the rational behind it the theory is based on the blue locus in IRN was damaged or interfere with during its EVOLUTIONARY journey causing the locus to split or duplicate this summary is precise when read in its original text which I cannot access.Deon used part of his text in his book however he has only published an extract from the original.

[Mikesringnecks]

Hi Johan
Slightly brighter looking blues in a clutch is something I and others in NSW have seen before, much like your example. I have always assumed it was a result of probably recessive "modifier genes" paired up in one bird but not others. I did have one such bird this season but unfortunately she has been sold as a very nice blue.
Kind regards
Mike

[Mikesringnecks]

Hi
Does anyone know why this frustrating forum will post some of my photos but not others?
Kind regards
Mike

[sheyd]

Hi
Does anyone know why this frustrating forum will post some of my photos but not others?
Kind regards
Mike

I notice that too with some of the attachments from the menu bar- far less frustrating to upload my pics to photobucket http://s920.photobucket.com/
and then select the image code, and paste it on here.

[Johan S]

Hi Johan
Slightly brighter looking blues in a clutch is something I and others in NSW have seen before, much like your example. I have always assumed it was a result of probably recessive "modifier genes" paired up in one bird but not others. I did have one such bird this season but unfortunately she has been sold as a very nice blue.
Kind regards
Mike

Thanks for that, Mike. I also believe that modifiers can play a role many times. One question I suppose is, when one isolates the modifiers, and develop the inheritance pattern for it, does it become a recognised mutation? If you see this variation in the same nest of youngsters, then there is something to it. In this case, the mature misty blue cock has produced offspring carrying the same phenotype, and the youngster from a third hen (yet to be identified as part of the puzzle/game) looks to carry the same gene as his mother.

[Mikesringnecks]

Hi Johan
I would have thought that a modifier could become a new mutation if it was isolated and developed. In some way,s is that not what Janee Salan was meant to have done to develop her recessive "american pieds".
Kind regards
Mike

[Mad Max]

Johan

I dont know much about the Bronse Fallows yet but I think bird 3 might be one

Robert

[madas]

Johan

I dont know much about the Bronse Fallows yet but I think bird 3 might be one

Robert

def. not.

[madas]

I would go with a Misty , I would like to see the back of both birds

OK, so seeing as we don't have any more participants, the first prize goes to Robert.

What we are looking at is a blue misty cock. It is not a strongly marked misty, but the misty shimmering is certainly there when the bird moves into the shadow. Notice the brighter, more brilliant blue colour.

But, the puzzle isn't complete. Let's enter a third participant. Unfortunately a youngster being compared to mature birds, but still interesting enough. The slaty effect on the wings is damage due to handraising and can be safely ignored. Continue to compare the base colour of the bellies.

Bird 3



What am I?

Hint: Not blue, not misty.

Azure blue???

[sheyd]

Interesting on the two mature cocks- I thought perhaps one may have been Misty- but only because I know who they belong to.. lol They look pretty much the same to me from the front. I have a couple of Blues where one is slightly (but noticeably) darker than the other- that when I brought the lighter cock home, I knew straight away of the difference even though they are not kept together (I have their central tail feathers in Ringo's feather thread if anyone is interested)- that's why I suggested unknown modifiers but both having the same mutation- those two cocks above could be my own.

no idea on the chick.. waiting for the answer

[Johan S]

But, the puzzle isn't complete. Let's enter a third participant. Unfortunately a youngster being compared to mature birds, but still interesting enough. The slaty effect on the wings is damage due to handraising and can be safely ignored. Continue to compare the base colour of the bellies.

Bird 3

What am I?

Hint: Not blue, not misty.

Azure blue???

And we have our winner for round two.

So, who would like to share some ideas?

[Ring0Neck]

I have a thought:

Pair up the Azure to Oz Deep for a season.

[Johan S]

I have a thought:

Pair up the Azure to Oz Deep for a season.

I have a feeling nothing will come of it. Being two hens won't help the matter at all, either.

But I like where your train of thought is heading. It's a good experiment.

[Ring0Neck]

Johan,

Do you have any pics of the Misty & Azure from the back (wings)?

10x

[Johan S]

Unfortunately not.

[Ring0Neck]

Hi Skyes,

How did you go this breeding season?

Pic 1- both birds look the same. But they are different. The bird on the left is genetically a parblue. Parents are 1,0 Turquoise sf Violet X 0,1 TurquoiseBlue. See pic 2.

Two things to consider here:
1. Indeed the left bird could be TurquoiseBlue, being a young bird psittacine is not yet visible which we see in some TurquoiseBlues having the "delayed effect".
2. It could also be a Blue, If both parents are TurquoiseBlues (+ - Violet) pair will still breed 25% Blues.

[Skyes_crew]

I thought of that Ben, so pulled the bird just to be sure. Here is what I found





I originally removed my posts because I thought maybe I was asking a stupid question or seeing something that isn't there. Did you get a chance to see all the pics I posted before deleting them?

[ErnieisAwesome]

Hi . Im new so please forgive my ignorance on the color guessing but i have a question . Ive noticed alot of breeders asking " what color is this one " and so on but if you are the breeder and you knew the hens & cock , wouldn't you know what color the babies were going to be or is it a gamble every time ? Are birds like humans when it comes to that ? For instance , my IRN is just green . Ig i mated him with a white IRN I'm guessing they would have green & white babies ?
Thanks !

[prodigy]

Bird 1 = Azure