Deep and Dark blue puzzle please help

[Gratz]

Hello all Forum members,I need help and ideas to solve a problem, here it is
A friend of mine purchased a cobalt from Victoria Australia believed to be a deep blue ( Aussie cobalt)
He then purchased a cobalt from me which I bred from what I have been told was also a deep blue ( Aussie cobalt) . 2 years on bred the two cobalts together ( being 2013) and has bred 2 birds one looks like a normal SF cobalt and the other a dark looking cobalt , with this in mind the breeder is assuming that the parents are both Deep blue and that the babies are SF deep blue and a DF deep blue.
The puzzle is this, How can we prove that the parents are both in fact deep blue, as I understand the darker bird could be a Deep Dark Blue. One suggestion was to breed the darker baby to a blue bird and if it reproduces a blue then it isn't a DF Deep blue. My question to this is if you have a deep dark blue x blue will it produce a blue offspring ? Also the bird is a male so he would have to wait 2 years at least to test mate it with a blue bird.
My suggestion was to split the parents and pair them up with a dark blue each and if a pair produced a mauve then the darker baby is a deep dark blue , but he will not split the pair up.
Any other suggestions / help are very welcome
Ps the breeding pair look identical in colour no difference in colour
Thanks

[Ring0Neck]

Hi Gratz,
One point of view:
Why doubt the young as not being sf & df deep blue? & the parents both sf deep blues?
Did you both source the deeps from M G? if so, it has to be just it.

* All your suggestions are valid.
I'm doing my best to try and find a sure way to ID dark deep & violet combos but i find it hard, v hard in fact.
I'm trying diff settings diff lighting etc etc.
I have not cracked it yet but we must find a way.

[sheyd]

My question to this is if you have a deep dark blue x blue will it produce a blue offspring ?

yes.

[Gratz]

Hi Ben and Shey
Thanks for both of your responses
Ben 1 is from MG the other isn't
They may well be Deep blue and I hope that they are both deep blue
Shey thanks for your answer as I wasn't sure if a bird carrying the deep and dark gene would only produce a SF deep and a SF dark or blue as well ,we know that if it is indeed a DF Deep paired to a blue will only produce deep blue.

Thanks

[Ring0Neck]

If he wants to pass on the young to another breeder, then the buyer should know exactly what you've told us.
If comfortable the buyer will purchase the bird knowing the history of the parents.

I'd say:
Deep Blues
Bred from a confirmed deep blue parent x unconfirmed deep blue
offspring: as expected what appears to be an sf deep and a df deep

would be better if he could hold off till next year.
if the parents breed say 4 young then he'll be close to make a very informed decision based on 6 young.
he will get better money on a ready to breed raising 2 y o df deep blue male confirmed
V unconfirmed deep last season's male.

[Gratz]

Hi Ben
Yes I agree
He should get a bigger clutch this year as they will be rising 3yo
Ps the bird in question that is being advertised is a Violet Cobalt bred from one of the parents of the hopefully DF Deep blue.
I will put your suggestion forward to him

Thanks

[madas]

Hi Ben
Yes I agree
He should get a bigger clutch this year as they will be rising 3yo
Ps the bird in question that is being advertised is a Violet Cobalt bred from one of the parents of the hopefully DF Deep blue.
I will put your suggestion forward to him

Thanks

Do you have a pic of this "violet cobalt"??? thx

[Gratz]

hello Madas and Molossus

The only photos I have are of the parents with the 2 Deep blues SF and DF
the birds are in moult at the moment so the breeder prefers me not to take photos of them at the moment,I will have to wait till around March
[URL=http://s1281.photobucket.com/user/ ... .jpg[/img][/url]
[URL=http://s1281.photobucket.com/user/ ... .jpg[/img][/url]

as you can see these are not very good pics for identifying birds/colours
I will take some better ones in March if the breeder allows me to

Gratz

[Ring0Neck]

Gratz

Here is what i think
i say the darker bird is either df deep or less likely a deep violet
i see no dark deep blue
dark deep bird should be a fairly light in color with dark towards black flights



I have my deeps from 3 diff breeders.
I consider birds from Willy confirmed deeps.

Some of the unconfirmed "deeps" i suspect Misty violet/dark or deep.

I have a theory but don't yet have enough data to put it forward just yet.
I hope i conclude this suspicion soon as i suspect many breeders might have Oz misty violets & think: it must be deep as it is not a violet nor a cobalt.



as you said, pics are hardly IDing material but the flight feathers on the darker bird is giving me a little bit of doubt
Check visually the nails of the 4 birds, see if any of them have lighter nails to the others.

If my suspicion is right for his uncofirmed deep as well, he will get 8 diff offspring phenotypes from his pair, hence me suggesting to hold off till he breeds next year, if he breeds same 2 phenotypes + plain blues then it can be concluded both parents being sf deeps.

This is the joy of breeding ringnecks and i love it.

[Gratz]

Hi Ben
Thanks very much for your thoughts/ reply
There is no violet in the pairing in the photo , the parents of these birds are both cobalt, the darker bird was the one that made the breeder assume that the parents were in fact both SF Deep blue.
The violet cobalt in question was bred from the sister of the cobalt ( Father of the DF Deep blue). Ps I was very lucky in 2011 to breed in one clutch 3 suspected deep blue and 2 deep violet blue.
The breeder I am referring to in this thread purchased a deep violet blue hen and a deep blue cock.
The deep violet blue advertised is from the deep violet blue hen.
I will have a look or ask the breeder to have a look at the toe nails and post the results

Thanks
Gratz

[Ring0Neck]

Gratz,

Just 1 thing i want to point out, might not be relevant to his case:
A violet misty will look like a cobalt, hence the breeders being confused eliminating the possibility of violet in that bird
but it will breed violets & (misty violets => cobalt looking birds).

Anything uncofirmed should be paired to a blue, well that's what i'm doing next season anyway.

Cheers

[Gratz]

Thanks Ben
thought i would add a pic from 2011 , amongst the babies are the cobalt (father of the DF Deep blue) and the violet cobalt ( mother of the deep violet blue) ps these birds are not paired together the cobalt is paired to a cobalt from M G
[URL=http://s1281.photobucket.com/user/ ... .jpg[/img][/url]

Ben ,and anyone else that wishes to comment, The bird in this photo is from the same cock bird but with a turquoise violet pied bred 2013
is it turquoise violet, or Turquoise Deep Violet blue.
your thoughts are very much appreciated
[URL=http://s1281.photobucket.com/user/ ... .jpg[/img][/url]

[Ring0Neck]

As Willy always says: Get a reference bird in there, a turq. vio young if you can.


what i can offer you is what paint.net shows:


this color is normally found when violet & deep or dark are present but with turq. being present it could all change
of course change of lighting in a pic will change the hue of the color, so not entirely accurate.




** Here's the something bizzare

Download this pic and zoom in all the way into the bird's eye pupil
you will see me yep, taking the pic both hands on the camera
(in his beak you can still see a bit of grape hehe)

no joke
http://parakeet.me/irn/m/em/d/P1108971.JPG

[Gratz]

Ben
I zoomed in
That's me

[Ring0Neck]

Makes sense. I brush my hair the other way ;)

[Gratz]

I have some new photos of the DF Deep
Unfortunately it is not with the SF Deep
In the photo there are 3 birds
DF Deep , Deep Violet blue , and a SF violet
ps some pics were taken in sunlight and some in shade and it makes the birds look very different and as most of our forum members have been told many times that it is very difficult to ID birds from photos
any comments are very welcome
Gratz
[URL=http://s1281.photobucket.com/user/ ... .jpg[/img][/url]
[URL=http://s1281.photobucket.com/user/ ... .jpg[/img][/url]
[URL=http://s1281.photobucket.com/user/ ... .jpg[/img][/url]
[URL=http://s1281.photobucket.com/user/ ... .jpg[/img][/url]



also have a photo of the parents

[URL=http://s1281.photobucket.com/user/ ... .jpg[/img][/url]

[madas]

I have some new photos of the DF Deep
Unfortunately it is not with the SF Deep
In the photo there are 3 birds
DF Deep , Deep Violet blue , and a SF violet
ps some pics were taken in sunlight and some in shade and it makes the birds look very different and as most of our forum members have been told many times that it is very difficult to ID birds from photos
any comments are very welcome
Gratz







also have a photo of the parents

Gratz,

please can you label each pic with mutation names left to right. thx

[Gratz]

Hi Madas
please keep in mind that these are not my birds
i have been told that the birds are in this order in the very first pic
left to right
DF Deep,SF Violetblue, and SF Deep Violetblue
the same order in the second pic PS This pic shows the different colours a little better

[madas]

Hi Madas
please keep in mind that these are not my birds
i have been told that the birds are in this order in the very first pic
left to right
DF Deep,SF Violetblue, and SF Deep Violetblue
the same order in the second pic PS This pic shows the different colours a little better

Ah ok. thx.

[Ring0Neck]

Gratz,

If you would have asked us to guess: I'd have gone for SF Deep Dark Violet or df violet dark for the first bird on the left.


My first reaction:
Too dark for DF Deep.
Second:
The bird has greyish on its back, the DF Deep is a blue bird,


Any chance he can take short small video of the young? it is more realistic then pics, can email me and i will upload.
Pics with flash would also be good.

[Gratz]

Ben

thanks will try to get a short video clip

gratz

[Johan S]

Gratz / Ben, it is interesting to me that the DF deep shows a violetish colour in the pictures, esp. on the rump. An alternative to test the bird(s) in question, if cobalt (not deep) is suspected, is to use a mauve rather than a blue.

[Ring0Neck]

Johan,

Pretty sure the one in the pic is Eu Cobalt and violet, deep could also be involved but impossible to see through the cloudy dark blue.
It seems to me Gratz's friend showed us the wrong bird.

Willy's pic
DF Deep Violet TurquoiseBlue - DF DeepTurquoiseBlue - Deep Blue
Note no violet on the DF Deep Turq.

[Gratz]

Ben,Johan

I spoke to the owner of these birds again.
One of the 3 birds pictured is definitely bred by the birds( labeled as the parents) they are definitely cobalt. Weather Deep or Dark is unknown( perhaps one Deep and the other Dark)
My thoughts were that is was very difficult to distinguish the difference between two of the birds in the photo, hence my question could the bird be DF Deep or Deep Dark blue,

Also I think we should be able to see the difference between a DF Deep and a violet blue or deep violet blue when they are in the same photo
Your thoughts?