Can you help identify please?

[lovemybirds]

Here is the females I recently purchased ... what are they? I was told they are Lacewing or Pallid .. is that correct? Are they ino? or not I'm not sure. Help is much appreciated!!

Female no.1



Female no.2





Thanks in advance!!

[Fah]

Heya there, they do look like Pallids to me, Lacewing is an old and technically incorrect name for Pallid.

The more Pallids are put to ino birds, or pallid ino males, the lighter the young get... you can get pallid birds that look near on lutino, with males that hold both pallid and ino genes looking almost entirely identical except for their rings betraying their genes.

[lovemybirds]

Thanks Fah. I think I understand. So these hens would be classed as a normal pallid?

Am I correct in thinking, that these with a Lutino male, will produce 100% Pallid ino males and 100% Lutino girls

and with a Blue male (no splits known) they will produce 100% green/blue pallid males and 100% green/blue females?

[Fah]

Yup, nice work, your right with everything there

[Jay]

Thanks Fah. I think I understand. So these hens would be classed as a normal pallid?

Am I correct in thinking, that these with a Lutino male, will produce 100% Pallid ino males and 100% Lutino girls

and with a Blue male (no splits known) they will produce 100% green/blue pallid males and 100% green/blue females?

Those hens look like GreyGreen Pallids to me. The bottom one may even be a GreyGreen PallidIno male.. maybe just the lighting but it appears to be lighter than the other.

If you're from Australia, it has been mentioned that there are 'lightphase' Pallids among the Pallid bloodlines there... suspected to be caused by inherited gene modifiers.

Anyway, add the combination of the Grey factor to the resulting offsprings.. as appropriate of course if SF or DF.

[Jay]

Heya there, they do look like Pallids to me, Lacewing is an old and technically incorrect name for Pallid.

The more Pallids are put to ino birds, or pallid ino males, the lighter the young get... you can get pallid birds that look near on lutino, with males that hold both pallid and ino genes looking almost entirely identical except for their rings betraying their genes.

Hi Fah,

In regards to the PallidIno males getting lighter when mixed with Ino repeatedly, this was mentioned in Jack Bastiaan's book as well as Zahir Rana's website. I'm however not entirely sold on this as neither had ventured to make a genetic or scientific explanation to it.

Everytime a PallidIno is bred from a PallidIno x Ino, the Pallid gene comes from the father and the Ino gene from the mother. So in each case, you get a distinct Pallid gene pairing with a distinct Ino gene from distinct parents to produce the PallidIno. Ino and Pallid are co-dominant in their expression so this should always be the case, a color intensity midway between the two phenotypes.

I suspect what was probably observed by some breeders was a a case of selective breeding (perhaps not by plan) and thus propagating gene modifiers that causes light-coloredness.

I've bred PallidInos with Inos before and I don't notice any lightening. And everytime I breed my offspring Pallidinos to other solid colored birds, I get normal looking Pallid offspring hens... along with the normal looking Ino hens.

[Fah]

Well, there are a handfull of breeders here in Australia who do the PallidIno lines. I myself with a friend started and sold our lines, it took 3 generations to see a notable difference between the birds colouring...

It can take several generations when starting with regular pallid birds as a primer to get a strongly lightened bird. Requiring a PallidIno cock being put to an Ino, not a pallid hen. Not a PallidIno to Pallid hen.

Here is an image of a local cock bird, he is a multi generation (not exactly sure, as not the owner) that is guaranteed Grey PallidIno.



He is without a doubt, appearing almost entirely as an albino appart from his black neckring. That is an albino hen he is with.

When paired to regular grey pallid hens, their young are light phase grey pallids, when placed with an albino, the hens come out as incredibly pale grey pallids with males seemingly adhering to the albino like colouring.

Unfortunately here in Australia, its harder to get guaranteed pallid birds with no cross ino blood lines that you would think :/

Karmic Aviaries, one of Australias most prestigious (shutting down its doors now mostly) aviaries, used to focus heavily on IRN's they had several Green Pallid lines where cock birds appeared almost lutino, cept for their brownish neckrings.

Here is one of their medium generation blue pallidino cock's.



Here is one of their earlier generation Green PallidIno cocks. In person this cock bird looks as a lutino through the chest etc, only showing pallid nature through the neckline and wings / upper back.



To produce these birds, all that was required at the start were PallidIno cocks being continually put to Ino birds. No other intervention was required.

As an added note: I have yet to hear success of a Blue PallidIno coming out like the first image I have provided, they seem to retain a blue 'hue' to the white.

[Jay]

Well, there are a handfull of breeders here in Australia who do the PallidIno lines. I myself with a friend started and sold our lines, it took 3 generations to see a notable difference between the birds colouring...

It can take several generations when starting with regular pallid birds as a primer to get a strongly lightened bird. Requiring a PallidIno cock being put to an Ino, not a pallid hen. Not a PallidIno to Pallid hen.

Here is an image of a local cock bird, he is a multi generation (not exactly sure, as not the owner) that is guaranteed Grey PallidIno.



He is without a doubt, appearing almost entirely as an albino appart from his black neckring. That is an albino hen he is with.

When paired to regular grey pallid hens, their young are light phase grey pallids, when placed with an albino, the hens come out as incredibly pale grey pallids with males seemingly adhering to the albino like colouring.

Unfortunately here in Australia, its harder to get guaranteed pallid birds with no cross ino blood lines that you would think :/

Karmic Aviaries, one of Australias most prestigious (shutting down its doors now mostly) aviaries, used to focus heavily on IRN's they had several Green Pallid lines where cock birds appeared almost lutino, cept for their brownish neckrings.

Here is one of their medium generation blue pallidino cock's.



Here is one of their earlier generation Green PallidIno cocks. In person this cock bird looks as a lutino through the chest etc, only showing pallid nature through the neckline and wings / upper back.



To produce these birds, all that was required at the start were PallidIno cocks being continually put to Ino birds. No other intervention was required.

As an added note: I have yet to hear success of a Blue PallidIno coming out like the first image I have provided, they seem to retain a blue 'hue' to the white.

The melanin traces are still obvious on the tail and flights of the Grey PallidIno. In the Blue PallidIno, the traces of Blue would translate to 'melanin stains' once the Grey factor does it's job of taking out the medullar spongy zone (responsible for the Blue coloration).

So all three pictures do prove the co-dominancy of Pallid and Ino.

When Zahir and Bastiaan mentioned that breeding PallidInos to Inos will ultimately have the Ino masking the effect of Pallid, this goes against the established heteroallelic reaction and co-dominancy of the Pallid and Ino mutations. I think Ino will always have a co-dominant relationship to Pallid and certainly will not turn to an epistatic (masking) relationship even when continually mixed with each other.

Mick Blake also posts on the same group where I sometimes do, Terry Martin's Genetics-Psittacine YahooGroup. Mick does have one of the best selections of IRNs that I have ever seen.

[Fah]

I was not interested in disproving anything....

I was just merely pointing out that continual breeding between PallidIno to Ino birds, does lighten the birds..

I dont read too much into speculation of something until it has actually been done, gives me a headache lol, I just look forward to seeing how far the progress goes... if it progresses any further. If anything, I expect the melanin traces to deplete further in the grey pallidino birds, as it has been doing to this point. It didnt happen overnight, so it will be a while before more progress is made, again, if any is there to be made.

I dont expect much, but suffice to say, I dont see how false the idea that the melanin would continue to fade until it is non existant, at least visually.. is.

[Jay]

I was not interested in disproving anything....

I was just merely pointing out that continual breeding between PallidIno to Ino birds, does lighten the birds..

I dont read too much into speculation of something until it has actually been done, gives me a headache lol, I just look forward to seeing how far the progress goes... if it progresses any further. If anything, I expect the melanin traces to deplete further in the grey pallidino birds, as it has been doing to this point. It didnt happen overnight, so it will be a while before more progress is made, again, if any is there to be made.

I dont expect much, but suffice to say, I dont see how false the idea that the melanin would continue to fade until it is non existant, at least visually.. is.

Yeah I'm with you on this Fah. I think it is just speculation until such time that we see a picture of a pristine white Grey PallidIno bird or a golden yellow Green PallidIno with a black ring as opposed to a pink and white ring.

So far, every single PallidIno that I have seen (picture or in the flesh) is a phenotype between Pallid and Ino.

[Ring0Neck]

If you're from Australia, it has been mentioned that there are 'lightphase' Pallids among the Pallid bloodlines there... suspected to be caused by inherited gene modifiers.

.

Here's a pic of a lightphase blue pallid hen, 4 years old

[Jay]

If you're from Australia, it has been mentioned that there are 'lightphase' Pallids among the Pallid bloodlines there... suspected to be caused by inherited gene modifiers.

.

Here's a pic of a lightphase blue pallid hen, 4 years old

Looks like a true Lacewing (Cinnamon-Ino) to me with the brownish feathers on the flights, tail, and feet. Not sure if it's just the lighting but I see some brown pigments on that bird.

It's been observed that the Ino gene does not totally mask Cinnamon but rather some sort of gene interaction occurs between the two sex-linked mutations.

http://www.birdhobbyist.com/parrotcolou ... namon.html

[Ring0Neck]

Not sure if it's just the lighting but I see some brown pigments on that bird.

It's been observed that the Ino gene does not totally mask Cinnamon but rather some sort of gene interaction occurs between the two sex-linked mutations.

http://www.birdhobbyist.com/parrotcolou ... namon.html

Must have been the flash, as i can not visually see any brown on her with naked eye. but rather interesting that it showed it in the pic. here's another shot of her. [/img]