white on white

[trabots]

I forgot that I had this image of a mature df Indigo cock. If you look close you can see the pale pink ring. The patches remind me of those on TurquoiseBlue CH Fallows. Then look at the next pic of a df Turquoise. Not even close. Until you have normal mature Turquoise and Indigos side by each in your collection, you won't see the folly.

[Johan S]

Yes you can line breed and alter the psitticin blocking/production one way or another in ParblueBlues, but how have you changed what happens when there is no Blue? Why don't you ask yourselves that?

Willy, I get that you are referring genetically to homozygous parblues when you say there is no blue, i.e. no blue gene and two parblue genes. But have you considered that even a homozygous parblue is still that, a parblue or part blue? We see this clearly in Indigo(df indigo). I agree that there isn't a pure/clean blue gene present, but rather two parblues. But how do we explain the actual blue feathers in the Indigo (df indigo) example? We are discussing the possibility that there are multiple genes at play in the blue locus, so for a parblue some could be active for psittacin production, and some could be inactive. In your example of "half blue", this could mean half of this "series" of genes are active and the other half mutated into inactive genes. Thus, if there really was no / zero blue genes to disable psittacin production in a parblue, we wouldn't have a mutant gene in this series of genes anymore and we'd be dealing with an unmutaed bird, the wildtype. This multi-gene idea is not new. I speak under correction, but I think it was also considered by Terry in his group. The multi-gene idea could also even lead to a result where it is possible for an emerald to be a parblue and not a separate mutation.

[madas]

Here are some interesting pics which should support Willy's theory of two distinct mutations:

turq cobalt less turq proportion but pink neckband:



indigo (turq?) cobalt less turq proportion but white neckband:



madas

[trabots]

Att South African members: The pic of Willys df turq is a bird I have yet to see in South Africa. Am I the only one or is this unusual?.
to me the bird is a normal green appearing phenotype bar the blue tail and turq flights??

Yes Molussus, that is what they are and consistently so in the half dozen mature df Turquoise I have come across. When colouring up they look just like the 'patched Emeralds' I posted images of. I posted this image on Terry's forum of a clutch of young from a TurquoiseBlue Cinnamon pair. You can clearly see the extra psitticin in the df birds. The second is after fledging. They seem to be more easily recognisable in melanin reducing mutations.





It seems that I am fighting this battle all over again on this forum.

[trabots]

We are discussing the possibility that there are multiple genes at play in the blue locus

Johan, as far as I am aware a locus is a location on a chromosome which carries 2 genes only. Yes we may be dealing with other modifier genes on other locuses however the main event is the 2 genes which are only found where the genes for Blue are found. You have understood that when both genes at the locus are Parblue genes no Blue gene are possible. You cannot have more combinations of genes at the Blue locus than combinations of the main Turquoise, Indigo, Blue and hopefully Emerald genes. That is why I keep pressing the point that genetically all the line breeding in the world may change or skew the proportions of modifier genes which may be present near by but you cannot alter the main mutation gene itself.

how do we explain the actual blue feathers in the Indigo (df indigo) example?

The Indigo mutation is unique to a Turquoise mutation in that it promotes less psitticin. Two of the same of either gene types produces incrementally more psitticin than if the other gene is a Blue gene. I have shown this with images many times. This why in order of psitticin levels we can go from Blue to Indigo to df Indigo to Turquoise to df Turquoise. As you can see in the latter bird, psitticin production is back to normal except in the flights and tails. There is bound to be phenotypical overlap possible in this situation. The main Parblue genes are what they are and cannot be altered.

[trabots]

Here are some interesting pics which should support Willy's theory of two distinct mutations:

Madas, you have shown a clear difference with these two birds but you have to admit these two birds are similar and one can be confused for another. Another point of reference is the amount of green in the face. One or both of these examples could be IndigoTurquoise heteroalleles unless you know for sure what the parents are.

It is clear from what Molussus said that most have never had or seen a df Indigo or df Turquoise. That is where the phenotypical difference is and until you people breed them you will always form your opinions only on the similar looking heterozygotes. As I have pointed out many times, I did not start the discussions on these Parblues or the Deeps until I was convinced by seeing the much bigger difference in the homozygotes. I am however confounded by the intense interest in proving me wrong based only on birds with only half the story genetically speaking.

[Carr.birds]

Stefan & Johan

The pic as promised.

L to R American (violet dark indigoblue, df violet blue & sf violet blue) and bottom European sf violet indigoblue



Years ago I met a Budgie breeders Neels Roeloffze who made the statement that the sf violet blue is the prettiest mutation when compared to df violet blue and violet dark blue but I thought he was talking nonsense. If you look at the above image it is clear to me that the man knew what he was talking about. I promise you non of our IRN breeders at that stage wanted to believe him.

Tienie

[Carr.birds]

Willy

This is a proven df turq hen. If I understand you correctly you are claiming that the df turq is visually evident when compare to a blueturq?



Tienie

[Carr.birds]

Johan

df indigo bronze fallow


Tienie

[madas]

Years ago I met a Budgie breeders Neels Roeloffze who made the statement that the sf violet blue is the prettiest mutation when compared to df violet blue and violet dark blue but I thought he was talking nonsense. If you look at the above image it is clear to me that the man knew what he was talking about. I promise you non of our IRN breeders at that stage wanted to believe him.
Tienie

But the Problem with budgies is that every breeder who is talking about violet budgies refers to the genetical violet (sf) dark (sf) blue.
Furthermore in budgies you can't easy distinct between dark (sf) blue and violet (sf) blue. So i think he really was talking about the cobalt violet.
Try to compare a violet (sf) blue with a violet (sf) dark (sf) blue budgie and you will always by the last one.

For lovebirds the most violet looking bird is a violet (df) dark (sf) blue. Really a great looking bird.



btw: I would take the violet (df) blue or violet (sf) dark (sf) blue ringneck in your pics.

[Carr.birds]

Stefan

I accept your explanation. I also own Fisher lovebirds and the sf violet blue fisher is the same situation as your mask. Only purple when dark blue is added.

For the first time today I held both sf and df violet blue IRN in my hand and with the naked eye there is a major difference in intensity between the 2. The rump, tail and flights are a major difference. It is a pity the overall body colour of the df is somewhat duller compared to a sf violet blue.

Tienie

[trabots]

If I understand you correctly you are claiming that the df turq is visually evident when compare to a blueturq?

Tienie, yes. The hen in your image is certainly more like the df Turquoise on the left than the Turquoise on the right. It is unusual however. I would guess that while it is proven it still is not fully coloured.

[trabots]

Tienie, here is a merged image from someone most of you have heard of. I found this many years ago. I was not the only one.

[Carr.birds]

Willy

Based on the evidence you supplied I can't see how anyone can argue against it. From what we can see there is a visual difference between sf and df birds and therefore it must be a co-dominant (incomplete) mutation like dark.

The hen I posted is a matured bird but I had to take the shadows away and that had an influence on the picture. Will take a better picture and post it.

Tienie

[Ring0Neck]

Tienie,

My df turquoise is very similar to a green bird and has blue feathers (see pic circled area) and a complete blue tail, unlike most greens , tail close to
the rump area is green.

Your df turq hen seems to have a rusty green, perhaps it gets heaps of sun?

2 y old hen df turq

[trabots]

From what we can see there is a visual difference between sf and df birds and therefore it must be a co-dominant (incomplete) mutation like dark.

Not quite Tienie, it is a proper recessive mutation which happens to share its locus with Blue and Indigo and hopefully Emerald and is therefore co-dominant to these. I mis-understood co-dominant before reading Deon's book. I think you mean't incomplete dominant which Dark, Deep, Grey, Violet are.

[Johan S]

We are discussing the possibility that there are multiple genes at play in the blue locus

Johan, as far as I am aware a locus is a location on a chromosome which carries 2 genes only. Yes we may be dealing with other modifier genes on other locuses however the main event is the 2 genes which are only found where the genes for Blue are found. You have understood that when both genes at the locus are Parblue genes no Blue gene are possible. You cannot have more combinations of genes at the Blue locus than combinations of the main Turquoise, Indigo, Blue and hopefully Emerald genes. That is why I keep pressing the point that genetically all the line breeding in the world may change or skew the proportions of modifier genes which may be present near by but you cannot alter the main mutation gene itself.

Willy, I think we are making good progress and getting to understand one another's view points better. Your explanation isn't wrong and I agree with what you have said, but I'm trying to elaborate on that as well. You touch on modifier genes, which indicates to me that you are aware of such and hopefully also open to the exploration of their effect. Intermediate and advanced genetics, unfortunately, can not always be explained by the basic/simpler concepts of a mutation being bound to a single locus/gene. That's where these modifiers are introduced. Now, I'm no geneticist either, and have read up a bit on topics like modifier genes, super genes, gene complexes, epistasis, pleiotropy, locus heterogeneity, etc., but I won't make a secret of the fact that I am far from understanding all these concepts in detail.

What you are saying is that we have the blue locus and it's alleles, being blue, indigo, turquoise and possibly emerald. In this case, we do not need any modifiers. And variation shouldn't be very likely. However, I'm saying that we could also consider the modifiers as well, so the blue locus would have it's alleles as blue (that completely switches of psittacin production and masking the effect of the modifiers), and a single parblue allele, that will express partial psittacin production, and this expression will depend on the modifier genes present in the genetic make up of the bird. As have been done with ADM pied, the modifier genes can be line bred and played with (with a range of interesting phenotypes), but it requires the major pied gene present to be expressed.

The difference between what you are saying and what I'm saying is minor (pun is intended). The inclusion of the minor/modifier genes, however, provides a genetic model with more flexibility than the multi-allele model you prefer. It allows, for example, to have a single allele (say pied) with variation, rather than having additional multi-alleles (pied1, pied2, pied3, etc.). Furthermore, it allows for the inheritance of the minor genes even from blue and green parents in the case of a parblue. This is not possible with the multi-allelic model. I prefer to apply this model to parblues, where we have a single parblue mutation, and it's expression is regulated by the minor genes/modifiers present.

Thoughts?

[Johan S]

For lovebirds the most violet looking bird is a violet (df) dark (sf) blue. Really a great looking bird.



btw: I would take the violet (df) blue or violet (sf) dark (sf) blue ringneck in your pics.

Beautiful lovebird, Madas! In the IRN world, when trying to achieve the most violet bird, I think violet (df) dark (sf) blue is a step too far. The lovebird looks better than the same IRN in my opinion.

I would pick the violet (df) from Tienie's pic.

[Ring0Neck]

The inclusion of the minor/modifier genes, however, provides a genetic model with more flexibility than the multi-allele model you prefer. It allows, for example, to have a single allele (say pied) with variation, rather than having additional multi-alleles (pied1, pied2, pied3, etc.). Furthermore, it allows for the inheritance of the minor genes even from blue and green parents in the case of a parblue. This is not possible with the multi-allelic model. I prefer to apply this model to parblues, where we have a single parblue mutation, and it's expression is regulated by the minor genes/modifiers present.

Johan,

I like your model idea & it is well explained
One must ask; Are we dealing ourselves a "free card" here? a free pass ?
Model fits the bill nicely, and most variations can fall into this model as long as we don't become complacent and throw everything in this bag including potential mutations.
We could also fall prey to the idea of other mutations being the same just diff modifiers at work, like SA Deep & OZ Deep
(not saying it is or otherwise)..
without doing the leg work to prove it one way or the other.


Tienie, do you have pics of the Eu violet and perhaps an american violet in the same pic? without indigo/turq.

[Carr.birds]

Willy

Sorry my mistake, yes co-dominant to blue and indigo. Will allele’s of the same locus always be co-dominant towards each other or can one be dominant over the other?

Did anyone do fluorescence comparisons on green vs green/turq?

My link at work is very bad, therefore I will rather wait till this afternoon and join again in the conversations.

Tienie

[Johan S]

Ben, I agree 100%. It is a model, not a shortcut. The legwork is still necessary.

[trabots]

Will allele’s of the same locus always be co-dominant towards each other or can one be dominant over the other?

The test is to breed df of each together. df Turquoise v Blue = 100% TurquoiseBlue = 100% BlueTurquoise. Which dominates the other? All co-alleles are equal partners genetically.

[trabots]

What you are saying is that we have the blue locus and it's alleles, being blue, indigo, turquoise and possibly emerald. In this case, we do not need any modifiers.

Johan, I am saying these major genes determine the major mutation, the modifier genes contribute to the variations in the major mutation. The Pieds as you have shown are known to carry an abundance of modifier genes hence the many variations. A proof of sorts would be if through line breeding your Dad's Pieds you could get an ADM Pied to look like a dom Pied, do you think the bird would inherit dominant, or recessive like its blood line? There is more to it than appearance factors.

Recio, where are you?

[Carr.birds]

Willy, Ben, Stefan & Johan

The attached pic is of an European dblue, blue and below SA dblue. The European dark bird was bred from SL Edged blue & imported violet ?dark indigoblue hen (darkest purple I have seen) and the other are local birds. In the pic the 2 dark birds look similar. We paired the European dblue to a SA dblue and it resulted in blue, dblue and a dark purple bird. No ddblue birds were present. It is at a friends place. Will visit him to get new pictures.



Ben please run these through the filter to detect any difference between the European and SA dblue birds. I am convinced it isn't the same dark mutation.

Sorry I don't have a pic of European violet blue compared to American violet blue.

Regards

Tienie

[Ring0Neck]

Tienie's pic Hue/Sat filtered

Pic is showing up very similar color except for the tail, the SA Dblue has a lighter blue tail & wingtips.
But it can be the lighting alone that does that due to the bird's positioning.
Some more pics would be good.

[Carr.birds]

Ben

Thank you. Based on the pics I agree there isn't a real difference. This was 4 years ago. I will revisit JB and get new pics. The hen has matured and maybe a pic of the 2012 babies will assist us.

Tienie

[Ring0Neck]

Tienie's pics Jan 2012
I left them at higher resolution so we can zoom in if needed.

http://parakeet.me/irn/f/Carr.Birds%202 ... 0052AL.jpg

http://parakeet.me/irn/f/Carr.Birds%202 ... %20050.jpg

http://parakeet.me/irn/f/Carr.Birds%202 ... 20040a.jpg

http://parakeet.me/irn/f/Carr.Birds%202 ... 20041a.jpg

[Johan S]

Ben please run these through the filter to detect any difference between the European and SA dblue birds. I am convinced it isn't the same dark mutation.

Tienie, I have a very strong suspicion your friend isn't sitting with a true European dark blue, but rather with the strain that has been identified as the Nico Theunissen blue (violet) that now appears to become popular as SA deep. I have seen an imported European cobalt and a Nico bird in two adjacent aviaries and they are even closer in phenotype than comparing a NT blue with the slightly darker SA cobalts.

When I first started posting to this forum, I thought that we were dealing with two violet strains. My thinking has diverted that the NT birds might be deep, but with Willy's assistance and after seeing an imported Oz deep bird, I'm back with my original line of thought that the NT birds have more in common with violet than with deep. And when combined with the dark factor, there is definitely certain light conditions that will make one think the bird carries violet.

Willy, you don't perhaps have a picture of a DF Deep in the green series?

[Carr.birds]

Ben & Johan

Ben thanks for posting the pictures.

Johan

It is possible if you take into account that the NT blue (SA Deep) was imported from Europe as dark. But then there must be 2 different dark mutations in Europe unless the "SA deep" is a second violet mutation as mentioned by you.

I own a brother of the hen in question. A "dark" indigoblue and must admit he compared very well with the "SA deep" blue Nico Theunissen birds.

Tienie

[trabots]

I have these images on file but can't guarantee them being as labelled.

Deep Green


DF Deep Green

[Johan S]

Thanks Willy! If we consider that last picture, it seems as if the oz deep is possibly more complex than what we give it credit for. Would love to see some more. A request: Ozzie forumites, would you please use every opportunity to take pics of oz sf/df deep green birds? We might be missing something by almost exclusively considering blue series birds.

[Ring0Neck]

Yep,
I already have 100 thoughts rushing through my mind..
& unfortunately most of us don't have any green deep birds.
The first that popped into my mind was the Jade green cheek conures that i had, they look very similar to the green deep pic above.
It is a dominant mutation & jade conures looked very similar to the df deep pic.
found a pic on the net.
http://www.madaboutconures.com/apps/pho ... =123353285
* the sf jade does not look as rusty as the pic shows (probably used flash to enhance color) but the df comes close

& this site - pic 9 in particular
http://www.mooiesaviaries.com/photos.html



Interesting to note is that Jade came about the same time as turquoise or Blue GCC here in OZ

I have somewhere the pic of the young in the nest when it was "first" spoted/bred. (by a local breeder)
i will look for the pic,
Thoughts?

[madas]

I have these images on file but can't guarantee them being as labelled.

Deep Green


DF Deep Green

Both birds look like Misty IRNs.

[Ring0Neck]

Both birds look like Misty IRNs.

_________________
madas

Yep, but i have my doubt if these birds are indeed the green deep, surely there must be blue in their main tail feathers.
-----------------------
I have a mature green/blue male and a couple of young deep blue hens i can pair up, just doubting they will go down..
i'm rather surprised Ron does not have deep green pics on his website.
--------------
I guess we need to pay close attention to all young including blues bred out of a deep parent.

[trabots]

Ben, you are spot on. There should be at least as much blue in the tail as in a Green, these birds are not what they were originally labelled IMO. I will remove them unless there are objections, or you do want to play name the mutation? Ron, as far as I know hasn't bred the Deep Green.

[Ring0Neck]

I agree, should remove them as it'll create confusion more then anything else.
------------------------------------------

If i say the young green series bird in the pic is a hen, does anyone believe it?

[sheyd]

I had inquired about sfDeep Green from the same breeder who's image is shared above a little while ago, and from what he told me, was that Deep Green and Wildtype Green were virtually indistinguishable from each other- apart from the slightly darker (blue) central tail feathers on the Deep.

[Ring0Neck]

Good work Shey,
You didn't ask if he has misty did you?

[sheyd]

haha, no was only interested in Deep. would be no harm in asking him- he's the mod on the Aussie Indian Ringnecks mutations group on fb- though I chose to be no longer a member so can't ask.

[Ring0Neck]

Here are 2 CHF blue mature males

Bird in the first 2 pics looks rather misty chf or edged chf perhaps cinnamon chf?
Opinions?





Ron's chf

[Johan S]

Ben,

my cobalt CHF cock also shows the greyish overtone. I don't think misty is at play. When we consider the fallow types in other species, I've thought of CHF as a possible candidate for the smokey fallow.

[Ring0Neck]

Johan,

It is a proven CHF no doubt, just wondering (breeder is) why the faded blue overlay?
looks cinnamon to me...

[madas]

Johan,

It is a proven CHF no doubt, just wondering (breeder is) why the faded blue overlay?
looks cinnamon to me...

Closeup pic of the feet would help to identify. ;)

madas

[sheyd]

Indigo blue & Blue next to each other

http://parakeet.me/irn/f/indigoNblue1.jpg

Is it possible to have an IndigoBlue without the Green patches? My newest bird looks exactly like your IndigoBlue- I have her in with my Blue cock and the difference is very noticable when together- but not so when she is on her own- (you'd probably think she was Blue). Breeder said she was a TurquoiseBlue (parents were said to be Turqblue x Turqblue- no one is real familiar with the term Indigo yet- so, one or both of them could have been).

[Ring0Neck]

Shey,

Yes you can, if the bird is not fully matured, it will show eventually. it can be turquoise or indigo depending on parents.
I heard breeders say; in some parblue birds the patches were visible as late as 3 years.

Recio, is there a way to explain why ?

[Gratz]

Hi all,
I have some pics of my Indigo blue cock bird and pics of my first indigo blue babies that were bred in 2008, pics were taken from pin feather stage , light green looking bird to blue looking birds to when the green patches begin to appear to becoming fully coloured indigo blue.some of these pics were sent to Babu who informed me that they were named Indigo and some of the pics were published in the Australian aviary life magazine.ps when I purchased the cock bird it was sold to me as a pastel aqua,that was in 2006 when we didn't know about Indigo.
I can't post links or pics to this site as yet but if anyone is interested I can forward them on to you so that you could post them for me for anyone who is interested to see

Gratz

[mallee_1]

Hey Gratz,

Good to see you on here, I still have the Indigo violet pallid (lacewing) I bought off you some years ago and she is still a stunning bird, still trying to get some Indigo pallids from her, all have just been violet lacewings, no Indigo as yet, will keep trying, got her paired to cobalt lacewing this year see what happens and also the indigo blue lacewing cock I got from you has coloured up nicely as well, he is paired to a double factor violet lacewing hen this season.

Sorry to others hijacked the original thread message.

Glenn

[Gratz]

http://s1281.photobucket.com/user/Allpe ... sort=3&o=8

[Kappa]

Hi everyone,
I am new member to the forum, and have been reading about the conversations about deep green and df deep green. I currently have a deep green/ blue cock paired with a deep green lacewing/blue. The information I can provide I relation to their colour is that they are virtually identical to the normal green variety. I find that the cock has more of an olive colour in his tail and not as much blue.

Possible offspring that I am expecting this season will hopefully include df deep greens, oz deep blues and a small chance of df oz deep blues. Will keep you posted with my results
Cheers,
Kappa.

[Gratz]

mature indigo blue cock

indigo blue chick pin feathers


indigo blue (blue looking birds)

green patches starting to appear




maturing and looking greener

mature hen now 4yo


indigo blue and violet (indigo violet baby at 12 months)

indigo violet as rising 2yo
sorry about the previous post still had my L Plates on
Thanks Glenn,great to hear from you