Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Johan S · Post by **Johan S** » Thu Oct 25, 2012 4:57 am

prodigy wrote:@Johan according to the filters

Bird 1 = Cobalt
Bird 2 = Violet or DF Violet Truq
Bird 3 = Cobalt Turq

whats my score ?

I will let the puzzle run a little longer. I enjoyed it very much when Madas used to do this. I often wish he would give some more puzzles. I'm sure he has some.

Hint: Are you saying the colour of the backs between the wings of bird 1 and 3 is the same? Surely, turquoise can't do what we are seeing there...

Johan S · Post by **Johan S** » Thu Oct 25, 2012 5:32 am

Ring0Neck wrote:Here's an article done by Russell one of the first in OZ to have violets, he is talking about the Deep or the violet strain Johan has?

Ben, it seems as if the article was written in 2005. Has the author made any headway in the last 7 years? Would be interesting to get feedback on progress.

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Thu Oct 25, 2012 5:54 am

Johan, i will give him a call
this is a cockbird violet peter russell's bloodline (bird of a friend)
http://parakeet.me/irn/redz/bDeepnVioletpr.jpg
my friend had cockbird's mother sine 2005-2007 approx. - paired to a blue

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Sat Oct 27, 2012 5:29 am

Puzzle : If you understand how the color system works, you'll be able to identify these 2 birds in the pic
It is simple .
Don't worry too much about SF & DF

I will give you the answer by uploading the original pic instead of telling you

You will tell us if you were right..

Ben

http://parakeet.me/irn/redz/puzzle.jpg

trabots · Post by **trabots** » Sat Oct 27, 2012 8:58 pm

Prodigy or Peter, sorry to hijack this thread but what is that white and pink bird in your images?

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:54 am

Johan S wrote:
Ring0Neck wrote:i am yet to see violet cobalt chf here in OZ (not saying there isn't any)
Hey Ben, the least I can do then is to let you have a look at this one here in SA.

Thanks Johan, Keep us updated on that lot with pics please.
I thought violet cobalt chf would be much darker then that..
Ben

prodigy · Post by **prodigy** » Sun Oct 28, 2012 11:37 am

Hi Willy,

I was apparently bead from:

1,0 cobalt violet / lutino(ino) x 0,1 Lutino/blue

Regards,

Peter

mallee_1 · Post by **mallee_1** » Sun Oct 28, 2012 2:55 pm

Hi Peter,

So this combination is from the reccesive lutino line, have anymore been breed from this pair?

Regards Glenn

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:35 pm

1,0 cobalt violet / lutino(ino) x 0,1 Lutino/blue

I doubt that is the whole story.
In this case we can assume that the bird's genotype would be:
D blue violet ino ( SL INO)
or D blue violet NSLino

Could it be pied markings? or Turquoise? rec. pied, DF perhaps?
I'd be great if we could get more info from the source inc. parents and the rest of the offspring would be much appreciated.

Johan, Molossus, or anyone else, have you had or seen an INO masking rec. pied?
Ben

prodigy · Post by **prodigy** » Sun Oct 28, 2012 8:44 pm

Hi Ben,

The marking's looked pied to me as well, here are some more pics.

@Glen, my line of reccesive lutino are already on the 3rd generation and the all show red including the offspring that have bread now and have produced red as well.

Regards,

Peter

ZaneFindlay · Post by **ZaneFindlay** » Mon Oct 29, 2012 1:21 am

Hi all,

I was not paying attention and put this message into the incorrect thread! LO I get so busy reading and chatting to people.

Peter & Ben

They are the same babies in the pic in the white bucket earlier in the thread, they are split CHF's

Babies,
http://www.flickr.com/photos/89143242@N ... hotostream

now with the paint change the Ben brought into discussion,

http://www.flickr.com/photos/89143242@N ... hotostream

another pic

http://www.flickr.com/photos/89143242@N ... hotostream

again with the paint changes,

http://www.flickr.com/photos/89143242@N ... hotostream

Please feel free to comment on the pictures, the baby is one of three (3) split CHF and there is 1 double dark (Green Series) split pic below

http://www.flickr.com/photos/89143242@N ... hotostream

regards
Zane

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Mon Oct 29, 2012 2:18 am

Hi Zane,

Is the hen DF Deep? on color chart thingy looks more violet then dark.
Deep is lighter then a Cobalt, unless you have a deep blue violet? or df deep blue hen?
In one of the threads i wrongly said the other way, but Johan did correct me.

If you look at the split chf's tail if violet is on the main tail feathers then it is a violet strain there .
let us know what you find.

PS. You said: Cobalt X Deep split CHF = do you mean that both are split CHF? or cobalt/chf X Deep chf?
With only one CHF there can not be CHF chicks only splits.

PPS. I think Deep Blue hen is CHF, right?, i've never seen a Deep Blue CHF yet so can't really say...

Ben

ZaneFindlay · Post by **ZaneFindlay** » Mon Oct 29, 2012 2:46 am

Hi Ben,

Thanks for the reply,

The male is a Turquoise (Dark factor bird) Blue series split CHF and the hen is a (Dark factor) green series split blue & CHF

The chicks were as follows:
3 X (Dark factor) blue series split CHF - *as per the pictures posted*
the other 3 are in the picture (link below) - Please note that the pic was taken using a flash

http://www.flickr.com/photos/89143242@N ... hotostream

Top left is a double factor dark (green series) CHF split blue - Below that is a Turquoise Dark factor (blue series) CHF - and the one to the right is a Double dark factor (Green series) split Blue & CHF

I hope that this clarifies, perhaps I have incorrectly named them in the pic

This is the pic when you do the paint adjustment

http://www.flickr.com/photos/89143242@N ... hotostream

so a total of 6 babies from a visual CHF hen to a split CHF male - (only 2 CHF's chicks

)

Regards
Zane

Johan S · Post by **Johan S** » Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:55 am

Hi Zane,

Ben's got it right. The Australian breeders that have dubbed their Australian cobalts as 'deep' has all reported that it is a lighter shade of blue compared to the European cobalt. Some of the photos of the chicks you have uploaded appears to be darker than their cobalt parents. Usually, from the SA birds I've seen, when one sits with a cobalt looking bird slightly darker than a normal European cobalt, it means that it is a cobalt violet, with the violet originating from imports from Belgium. My logic says that a bird darker than a cobalt, will also produce mauve-like double factor birds. This is unlike Australian cobalt that produces a dark blue DF. Still a lot of work needs to be done before we'll solve this mystery. Time will tell.

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Mon Oct 29, 2012 10:02 am

Johan,

What's your take on the white/pinkish bird Peter uploaded?
Have you got any info on it at all?
Genotype, parents rest of the nest outcome?
Is that bird a healthy specimen?

Ben

mallee_1 · Post by **mallee_1** » Mon Oct 29, 2012 5:09 pm

Hi All,

Trying this again, see if picture attached of Emerald SF Violetblue Pallid hen.

If it dosnt work then that is it!!!!

Regards Glenn

mallee_1 · Post by **mallee_1** » Mon Oct 29, 2012 5:14 pm

Well that didn't work again, I followed the process from other section of how to post picture, must be doing something not quite right, Ben & others need some help, want to share some photos for comments and dont want to burden Ben all the time.

Regards Gelnn

mallee_1 · Post by **mallee_1** » Mon Oct 29, 2012 5:56 pm

Sorry to take a couple of goes, but I am trying again.

Emerald SF Violetblue Pallid hen

Hope this work this time

Regards Glenn

prodigy · Post by **prodigy** » Mon Oct 29, 2012 9:19 pm

very nice looking bird, she yours Glen ?

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Mon Oct 29, 2012 10:32 pm

Just an update on the bird that opened this thread. Turquoise Violet Blue Pallid Hen
Summary: During the last 6 months she gradually lost almost all violet color, had 3 young all 3 violet
Now she seems to be going through an early moult and violet is starting to re-appear.
Pics below:

http://parakeet.me/irn/pallid30oct.jpg

http://parakeet.me/irn/pallid30octb.jpg

last pic:
http://parakeet.me/irn/pallid30octa.jpg

ZaneFindlay · Post by **ZaneFindlay** » Mon Oct 29, 2012 11:18 pm

Hi All,

I think the white bird had fun playing with a cotton wool ball and Mercurochrome! LOL it should be healthy and will be okay as soon as it goes through the next molt.

Johan S,

Thanks for your opinion, when will you be gracing me with you presence at my house to see my birds (perhaps all three dark colors). I am looking forward to breeding the double factors next season, even though I have one this year (pitty its a green series) but clearly not olive.

I so cant wait for the next seasons breeding, I do believe that we will have some mind boggling results.

Peter,

Please will you post the pic's of my Violet (pos Double factor) split CHCT that you took at my place, as I still have to for sale.

Regards
Zane

smick · Post by **smick** » Tue Oct 30, 2012 12:56 am

Unfortunately for me the indigo blue cock/pallid to df violet blue hen's eggs wern't fertile and looks like they wont try again this season. i suppose for a one year old hen and two year cock the chances were that they may not be fertile yet.at least she sat full term so should be a good hen.

mallee_1 · Post by **mallee_1** » Wed Oct 31, 2012 5:53 pm

Hi Peter,

Any chance of seeing some pics of your recessive lutinos with extent of red markings?

Regards Glenn

prodigy · Post by **prodigy** » Thu Nov 01, 2012 12:10 am

Hi Glen,

Any time!

And here is a little experiment Recio and I did with a hammer

Before Hammer

After Hammer

Regards,

Peter

Johan S · Post by **Johan S** » Thu Nov 01, 2012 1:43 am

prodigy wrote:

Peter, are you sure that is a photo of a recessive lutino? Seems very green to me.

prodigy · Post by **prodigy** » Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:00 am

Hey Johan,

I have both, this bird is recessive or even possibly even dominant, I will report back after we have had the chicks sexed.

As this year we put "yellow-red" cocks to our Red Pallid's and to Red Pied blood lines and in some instances have got some strange breeding results, that can only be confirmed after sexing.

Regards,

Peter

Stacey m · Post by **Stacey m** » Mon Nov 26, 2012 9:24 pm

What the difference between a normal coloured (solid colour) ringneck and a lacewing/ pallid ringneck.....I have attached a picture I one if my baby's ...I was told its parents where blue split green lacewing/pallid ... I did notice a greenish tinge to one of the baby's tails. I just want to know what's best when it comes to breeding them? But if i leave the parents as they are , are they ok just like a normal pair? Would love not info as I may keep a baby from another clutch to breed.

This new commer would appreciate any help

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Mon Dec 03, 2012 4:40 pm

Anybody wants to have a punt what this is? (not the green cheek behind)

prodigy · Post by **prodigy** » Mon Dec 03, 2012 10:36 pm

Deep Emerald Turquoise ?

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Tue Dec 04, 2012 4:05 pm

Hi Peter,
Update: time will tell what it is through breeding results!

I'm waiting for him to get out of the molt and he is getting his ring, so far no red only yellowish.
Time will tell. I am also working backwards on his bloodline.
Whatever he is i have 2 other birds from this bloodline and i intend to develop it, regardless what is, i just love the bird.
He did not breed this year as he was moved to another hen (by original breeder) during breeding season and the hen attacked him.
He is recovering nicely.

Sherjil · Post by **Sherjil** » Sat Dec 08, 2012 4:02 pm

Hi Recio;

With reference to your discussion related to recessive & dominant classification of mutations on another group; I would like to ask below query :-

Since this method proposed by Ringo is helpful in identification between two different mutations of blue series birds which otherwise are hard to distinguish by human eye (Upper or close to upper part of the color saturation Vs pigment concentration curve) ... Is it logical to think that the method can be helpful to elaborate the hetrozygous forms of blue in dominant mutations (w.r.t. blue) e.g. a green series bird split to blue

i.e. lower or close to lower part of the color saturation Vs pigment concentration curve where changes incurred by reduction in psittacine are not detected by human eye and hence we perceive two green birds as same when genetically one is green w/o any blue and other is hetrozygous form of blue in green.

regards

Recio wrote:Hi Ben,

What you are doing is treating colours so that our eyes can easierly see the differences, but you can not compare two different pics because the apparent colours are different even if the bird on each pic is the same. This is a very valuable tool to look for little differences at colours where our eyes are not good enough. Ex: after aging our eyes can not detect little differences among different blues as you can obtain by combining structural mutation on the blue series. If you just inverse the colours your eyes, which are more efficient in the red colours, will be able to easily detect these changes... but again you can only compare mutations within the same pics and never between different pics.

Regards

Recio

PS: This topic was previously discussed in the yahoo list... although the work looking for the good settings was not as far as Ben has gone... just inversing colours with one simple click on your computer.

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Sat Dec 08, 2012 6:54 pm

father pic above, previous post

notice the light shade on the head (used autoLevel to enhance visibility)

Sherjil · Post by **Sherjil** » Thu Dec 13, 2012 6:33 am

Sherjil wrote:Hi Recio;

With reference to your discussion related to recessive & dominant classification of mutations on another group; I would like to ask below query :-

Since this method proposed by Ringo is helpful in identification between two different mutations of blue series birds which otherwise are hard to distinguish by human eye (Upper or close to upper part of the color saturation Vs pigment concentration curve) ... Is it logical to think that the method can be helpful to elaborate the hetrozygous forms of blue in dominant mutations (w.r.t. blue) e.g. a green series bird split to blue

i.e. lower or close to lower part of the color saturation Vs pigment concentration curve where changes incurred by reduction in psittacine are not detected by human eye and hence we perceive two green birds as same when genetically one is green w/o any blue and other is hetrozygous form of blue in green.

regards

Recio wrote:Hi Ben,

What you are doing is treating colours so that our eyes can easierly see the differences, but you can not compare two different pics because the apparent colours are different even if the bird on each pic is the same. This is a very valuable tool to look for little differences at colours where our eyes are not good enough. Ex: after aging our eyes can not detect little differences among different blues as you can obtain by combining structural mutation on the blue series. If you just inverse the colours your eyes, which are more efficient in the red colours, will be able to easily detect these changes... but again you can only compare mutations within the same pics and never between different pics.

Regards

Recio

PS: This topic was previously discussed in the yahoo list... although the work looking for the good settings was not as far as Ben has gone... just inversing colours with one simple click on your computer.

Looks like Recio is away .... anyone else who would like to share his thoughts ???

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:15 pm

Sherjil That is a tough nut to crack. you can certainly try.

Here's a pic courtesy of Len of Turquoise Emerald Grey & Emerald & i have added the daughter of the bird in Question in this thread on the left.

So, why do i think that there's another mutation in the mix?

Firstly, the mother yellow bird is a DF? Turquoise df? Violet Pallid + ?
The phenotype of the bird is not same as any other Pallid which clearly displays the yellow head.
ref: http://psittacula-world.com/EN/Mutation ... Pallid.htm
2. Even distribution of psittacin throughout the bird.
3. This year's offspring, chicks sold young

all 3 were violets and displayed psittacin at fledging.
4. Daughter (now mature - see pics) same thing it looked almost black at fledging.

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:45 pm

cockbird after molt

trabots · Post by **trabots** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:55 pm

I am a bit mixed up with the images however the last 2 images are of a DF Violet TurquoiseBlue or a Violet TurquoiseBlue in my opinion. Are they of the same bird with and without ring?

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:07 pm

Willy,

The one without ring is offspring hen of the yellow looking hen and the cockbirdbird showing the ring. (not certain but pretty sure they are all related over 5 year period was cross bred turq to turq.)
I've had/seen plenty of turq. and none looked close to these, but if it so they are the best lookin turq. i've ever seen.
Violet on the hen's tail is deep dark purple, no double factor violet comes close that i have seen.

* I have no doubt that they are DF Violet Turquoise or Violet Turquoise, not sure about the blue
The yellow hen (mother) is still a miss as a pallid.

- It's like looking at a turq. pallid & turq. clearheaded fallow - one must detect/identify the differences to be able to make a decision what the bird's genotype is, my birds have some features that don't make sense for a straight turq. or pallid turq. for the mother.

Does anyone have a turquoise and tail to be colored on the inside same as body?

Cheers
Ben

pic of hen after molt

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Sun Dec 30, 2012 7:23 pm

Does anyone have a Pastel Violet Clearheaded Fallow?
If you have, can you please upload a pic ?

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Fri Jan 04, 2013 5:58 am

It takes patience and other elements to get a good pic
Here's a couple i've taken today.
Flash was used.

http://parakeet.me/irn/f/turqy.jpg

http://parakeet.me/irn/f/turqy1.jpg

http://parakeet.me/irn/f/turqyside.jpg

willowisp71 · Post by **willowisp71** » Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:03 pm

Nice looking bird, Ringo - I can see why you want to develop this line

sottobosco · Post by **sottobosco** » Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:26 pm

Dio mio! What a fantastic bird!

madas · Post by **madas** » Wed Jan 09, 2013 11:18 pm

Ring0Neck wrote:Does anyone have a Pastel Violet Clearheaded Fallow?
If you have, can you please upload a pic ?

Here you go:

clearhead fallow Violet TurqBlue:

clearhead fallow Dark Violet TurqBlue:

madas

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Thu Jan 10, 2013 4:02 am

Thanks heaps Madas.

Recio · Post by **Recio** » Thu Jan 10, 2013 5:29 am

Hi Madas,

I have bred 2 clearhead fallows males and I have noticed that it takes longer for them to reach sexual maturity than for any other male showing other mutations. Even at 2 years they did not dysplay as usually males do (I thougth they were females) and the ring only appeared on the 3th year. Is this a general rule for clearhead fallows or is something specific to my strain? Which is your experience with this mutation?

Regards

Recio

madas · Post by **madas** » Thu Jan 10, 2013 6:55 am

Recio wrote:Hi Madas,

I have bred 2 clearhead fallows males and I have noticed that it takes longer for them to reach sexual maturity than for any other male showing other mutations. Even at 2 years they did not dysplay as usually males do (I thougth they were females) and the ring only appeared on the 3th year. Is this a general rule for clearhead fallows or is something specific to my strain? Which is your experience with this mutation?

Regards

Recio

Hi Recio,

sorry but i can't tell you because i don't breed them. Cleartails and opalines are nicer. ;)

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Wed Jun 05, 2013 10:17 pm

prodigy wrote:Hi Ben,

The marking's looked pied to me as well, here are some more pics.

Regards,

Peter

I doubt it is just INO, i doubt it is INO at all.

If i had to make a guess now i would say:
Cleartail Pied Turquoise Cinnamon (possibly opaline)
i reckon that combo would come close to this bird

Peter, can you follow up on this bird see if you can get any updates?

Cheers

Johan S · Post by **Johan S** » Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:51 pm

Recio wrote:Hi Madas,

I have bred 2 clearhead fallows males and I have noticed that it takes longer for them to reach sexual maturity than for any other male showing other mutations. Even at 2 years they did not dysplay as usually males do (I thougth they were females) and the ring only appeared on the 3th year. Is this a general rule for clearhead fallows or is something specific to my strain? Which is your experience with this mutation?

Regards

Recio

Hi Recio,

I missed this comment previously. Fallows are harder to breed than other mutations and sometimes takes longer to reach sexual maturity. There are some bronze fallow examples where cocks took 5 years to reach sexual maturity.

Recio · Post by **Recio** » Thu Jun 06, 2013 3:08 am

Thanks Johan

... so my birds are standard clearhead fallow

Recio

https://www.youtube.com/user/kingtutone · Post by **ringneck** » Tue Apr 01, 2014 12:06 am

What a fascinating thread. Thank you all! I learned at lot. I gotta grasp genetics. It's amazing all the work done to develop new mutations. Left speechless! :0)

John Shannon · Post by **John Shannon** » Tue Apr 01, 2014 4:50 am

Hi Ben
At the start of this post you show a pallid with brown flights.
Here is a picture of a bird I breed a few years ago and this is him (long gone) and his mother looked the same as that hen.
The breeder told me at the time she was a Turq pallid. Is there many Brown flighted IRN's out there?