Newbie - need crash course on genetics

[madas]

Incomplete-Dominant is a sub-classification of a Dominant mutation where there is a phenotypical difference between a Single Factor bird and a Double Factor bird such as the case of the Dark Factor (ie. Cobalt and Mauve).

This can also apply to the example of violet Madas wrote about.

Hmm... not sure about Violet being incomplete dominant. I've bred dozens of Violets and DF and SF Violets sometimes can't be determined visually. Several American Violet breeders who have bred hundreds of Violets over the years say the same. DF Violets tend to be Darker with a greyish feather sheen but this not ALWAYS the case, unlike in Cobalts/Mauve.

Hi Jay,

all DF Violets i have seen are darker then EF Violets (and a litte bit darker then cobalt violets). And they were checked against Blue birds with all violett offspring. Did you do the same?

[Jay]

This can also apply to the example of violet Madas wrote about.

Hmm... not sure about Violet being incomplete dominant. I've bred dozens of Violets and DF and SF Violets sometimes can't be determined visually. Several American Violet breeders who have bred hundreds of Violets over the years say the same. DF Violets tend to be Darker with a greyish feather sheen but this not ALWAYS the case, unlike in Cobalts/Mauve.

Hi Jay,

all DF Violets i have seen are darker then EF Violets (and a litte bit darker then cobalt violets). And they were checked against Blue birds with all violett offspring. Did you do the same?

Of course breeding to Blue (or another Violet) is the only way to test. I have bred dozens of Violets. The biggest breeder of Violets in the US (Richard, 1-805-686-4646) who produces several dozens annually will tell you he can't accurately tell the difference between SF and DF Violet.

I have a very dark Violet male that I thought was DF. But he produced a Blue offspring last year.

So what does this all mean? I say the darkness (or lightness) of a Violet bird also depends on the darkness/lightness of the Blue alleles that it inherits from its parents. Afterall, a visual Violet bird is a combination of Blue and Violet Factor. And we all know for a fact that not all Blue birds are of the same shade. Some are darker than others.

[Recio]

So lets's say almost-quasy-incomplete dominant. In fact it just mean that there is a whole array of different % expression depending on what genes we speak about.

Either you're Incomplete Dominant or not. No quasi because this will only add more confusion. If there are offsprings that cannot be determined whether SF or DF, then technically the mutation does not qualify as Incomplete Dominant.

OK Jay . Now seriously: when a gene, as violet, is differently expressed by different birds, so that sometimes you can make the difference between DF and SF birds, but not always, it is called variable expressivity. It means that the amount of change in feather structure produced by just one allele is variable and you can not know in one particular bird if it is SF or DF just looking at its phenotypic appearance
Variable expressivity refers to the range of phenotypic changes that can occur in different living beings with the same genetic condition.

According to MUTAVI, pairing Bronze Fallow and NSLIno will produce an intermediate phenotype. So this means they are co-dominant to each other.

Thank you very much.
PS: Any idea about the phenotype of a 1.0 IRN NSLino-cin [a(ct+)/a(ct+); cin/cin]

[Recio]

So what does this all mean? I say the darkness (or lightness) of a Violet bird also depends on the darkness/lightness of the Blue alleles that it inherits from its parents. Afterall, a visual Violet bird is a combination of Blue and Violet Factor. And we all know for a fact that not all Blue birds are of the same shade. Some are darker than others.

So, different depth in violet colouring could depend on violet and/or blue variable expressivity?

[Jay]

OK Jay . Now seriously: when a gene, as violet, is differently expressed by different birds, so that sometimes you can make the difference between DF and SF birds, but not always, it is called variable expressivity. It means that the amount of change in feather structure produced by just one allele is variable and you can not know in one particular bird if it is SF or DF just looking at its phenotypic appearance
Variable expressivity refers to the range of phenotypic changes that can occur in different living beings with the same genetic condition.

I'm serious Recio lol. If you cannot tell the difference between SF and DF, whether a result of variable expressivity or not, then the mutation is NOT incomplete-dominant. Mauve and Cobalt can easily be distinguished. In Violets, it cannot.

What you term as variable expressivity may be the result of minor inheritable gene modifiers.

PS: Any idea about the phenotype of a 1.0 IRN NSLino-cin [a(ct+)/a(ct+); cin/cin]

No idea. I'm breeding my NSLIno male to a Cleartail then to Clearhead_Fallow before I think of breeding it to a Cinnamon.

[Jay]

So what does this all mean? I say the darkness (or lightness) of a Violet bird also depends on the darkness/lightness of the Blue alleles that it inherits from its parents. Afterall, a visual Violet bird is a combination of Blue and Violet Factor. And we all know for a fact that not all Blue birds are of the same shade. Some are darker than others.

So, different depth in violet colouring could depend on violet and/or blue variable expressivity?

Yes, among other factors. The final appearance of a bird does not depend on just one or two genes. A bunch of wildtype genes and modifiers mold the final color that we see in any bird.

I also believe there is variable expressivity in the expression of mutations but the variance is minimal such that one can still tell the difference between SF or DF birds.

Do you believe that there is variable expressivity on the expression of the Dark/Blue factors in Cobalts and Mauves? If so, how come these birds can easily be determined even with effects of variable expressivity? Now that is the true definition of Incomplete-Dominance.

[Recio]

What you term as variable expressivity may be the result of minor inheritable gene modifiers.

Variable expressivity is not an expression I have just "imagine" but a well documented phenomenon which is recurrent among species. Yes, you are right: one explanation is the effect of minor modifiers.

PS: Any idea about the phenotype of a 1.0 IRN NSLino-cin [a(ct+)/a(ct+); cin/cin]

No idea. I'm breeding my NSLIno male to a Cleartail then to Clearhead_Fallow before I think of breeding it to a Cinnamon.

Hi, I understand the first lady for your NSLino male, but I do not understand why to choose miss buttercup? What are your neurons cooking about NSLino and buttercup?

[madas]

@Jay: Which eye color does your lutino offspring have?

From afar, the NSLInos that I produce look the same as SLInos. But if you look closely at their feathers, there seem to be less residual melanin... manifested by less grey stains on Blue series birds and less or absence of greenish sheen on NSL Lutinos.

I have talked to some breeders here in europe. they telled me that their rec. lutinos (100% breed from WKWS line) have a gold yellow (the portion of the yellow is higher) appearance (the flight feathers too). Why does your birds look different (to their rec. lutinos)?

[madas]

Hi, I understand the first lady for your NSLino male, but I do not understand why to choose miss buttercup? What are your neurons cooking about NSLino and buttercup?

Is it not obvious? If cleartail could be an allele of NSLino then perhaps clearhead Fallow too.

[Recio]

Hi, I understand the first lady for your NSLino male, but I do not understand why to choose miss buttercup? What are your neurons cooking about NSLino and buttercup?

Is it not obvious? If cleartail could be an allele of NSLino then perhaps clearhead Fallow too.

Hi Madas
Not, this is not obvious since it is well documented that cleartail and buttercup are independent mutations. But Jay knows it so I am just guessing ... he has another thought on the subject....

[Coastal-Birds]

Hi Jay,Madas and Recio.
To get off topic a little bit i have read i think in the 2nd bastiaans book that pied is or can be made up from mating a bronze fallow and something else.Looking for what i read about this.
Have any of you heard of this??
Here in Australia there is a few dominant pied breeders but to buy one of these birds is at least $4000 for a green series bird.Also there are no rec pieds that anyone is aware of.
So now im thinking if i can get a NSLino bird maybe i could breed some pieds.But do you only get the NSLino birds from mating to whwt(cleartails) together or can you also get this from a pure and a split mating as here that is how we do it as the bloodlines are not crossed out enough for pure to pure yet.
Cheers

[Recio]

Hi Jay,Madas and Recio.
To get off topic a little bit i have read i think in the 2nd bastiaans book that pied is or can be made up from mating a bronze fallow and something else.Looking for what i read about this.
Have any of you heard of this??

No, never; but I do not have that book. If it was true, so rec pieds would also be an allele of NSLino. Could you give us the whole information from Bastiaans book?

Here in Australia there is a few dominant pied breeders but to buy one of these birds is at least $4000 for a green series bird.Also there are no rec pieds that anyone is aware of.
So now im thinking if i can get a NSLino bird maybe i could breed some pieds

.
Even in the case it was true (it is hard to believe it) it could never apply to dom pieds, since the alleles of NSLino would act all as recessifs.

But do you only get the NSLino birds from mating to whwt(cleartails) together or can you also get this from a pure and a split mating as here that is how we do it as the bloodlines are not crossed out enough for pure to pure yet.

If mating pure cleartails (homozygous) to split birds (split cleartails, split NSL-ino or split Bronze-fallow) will only produce phenotypic cleartails, (with different genotype depending on the genotype of split birds) and wildtype split cleartail birds. Cleartail would act as dominant to NSLino, so it is easier to get the recessifs gens expressed as homozygous (to get the visual phenotype) when pairing heterozygous birds or split to split birds. If one of the birds is homozygous for cleartail, you will not be able to make appear the recessif traits you are looking for. Hope the explanation is clear.

Cheers

[Coastal-Birds]

Ok from what i rememeber it is a bronze fallow mated to ?? to get pied.
I am reading the book now to find the part on this and i will quote what it says.
I think i confused the part a little saying a nslino to get a pied,it is a bronze fallow which from what i can work out on this topic you can breed from a NSlino is that correct?.

[Coastal-Birds]

Hi Recio
Ok i have made a mistake it is not a pied it is Opaline.
On page 69 and 70 from bastianns first book it tells you that a pastelblue/green cinnamon(bronze fallow)/ino mated with a pastelblue cinnamon(bronze fallow)and the ino gene will give you opaline unless i am reading this wrong.
Even still Opalines here are the same,rare and expensive if you can buy any.I know of only 1 breeder that has Opalines.
They tell ytou what the outcome is but not stated as opaline but under it there is a picture saying this opaline pastelblue cinnamon was a young from the pair.
So either they are confused or i am reading this old book wrong.
Let me know what you think and if you have this book see what you think of it all.
Cheers

[madas]

Hi Recio
Ok i have made a mistake it is not a pied it is Opaline.
On page 69 and 70 from bastianns first book it tells you that a pastelblue/green cinnamon(bronze fallow)/ino mated with a pastelblue cinnamon(bronze fallow)and the ino gene will give you opaline unless i am reading this wrong.
Even still Opalines here are the same,rare and expensive if you can buy any.I know of only 1 breeder that has Opalines.
They tell ytou what the outcome is but not stated as opaline but under it there is a picture saying this opaline pastelblue cinnamon was a young from the pair.
So either they are confused or i am reading this old book wrong.
Let me know what you think and if you have this book see what you think of it all.
Cheers

Hi look at this table http://www.euronet.nl/users/dwjgh/newnames.htm. There the name opaline (old and incorrect) is used for the bird you discribed above.

A real opaline bird looks complety another way (and i am glad to have one and in two moths another two).

[Coastal-Birds]

Hmm looking more in that old book it is saying that opaline(old name) is recessive pied in his book it is at the back few pages.
Now i am getting confused.And bastiaan was very confused when he did the first book in naming birds.

[Recio]

Hi look at this table http://www.euronet.nl/users/dwjgh/newnames.htm. There the name opaline (old and incorrect) is used for the bird you discribed above.

On the left you can see that it corresponds, as you wrote, to the page 69 of Bastiaan's book.

A real opaline bird looks complety another way (and i am glad to have one and in two moths another two).

Such a fortunate man

Chus

[Coastal-Birds]

To clear something up for me the NSLino birds you are talking about are these all albino or lutino looking birds?
I am curious as i have a big whitehead and white tail breeder coming here to see some of my birds and im going to ask if he ever gets any albino or lutino looking young from his birds.But far as i know all breeders here breed a pure whwt with a split simply to get good genes and not get bad young.
I would be guessing if any did have these NSLino birds they would sell them off cheap as im sure no breeders here would want anyone thinking they have ino in there birds.Here ino or split to ino no one wants for reasons of breeding coulored birds only and especially in big dollar whwts or buttercups.

[madas]

To clear something up for me the NSLino birds you are talking about are these all albino or lutino looking birds?
I am curious as i have a big whitehead and white tail breeder coming here to see some of my birds and im going to ask if he ever gets any albino or lutino looking young from his birds.But far as i know all breeders here breed a pure whwt with a split simply to get good genes and not get bad young.
I would be guessing if any did have these NSLino birds they would sell them off cheap as im sure no breeders here would want anyone thinking they have ino in there birds.Here ino or split to ino no one wants for reasons of breeding coulored birds only and especially in big dollar whwts or buttercups.

A homozygot NSLino (as the discription says Non Sex Linked Ino aka Lutino) is a Lutino (phenotyp). If this bird carries the Blue Gen too (fully expressed) then you will have a "NSL Albino".

[Coastal-Birds]

So to get NSLino birds they have to be bred from whwt birds or not?.
I only know of 1 person here that has some NSL lutino birds.
I know he has whwt birds but im not sure if his nslino birds are from these or not.It is interesting this as i thought i had most genetics worked out with whwt birds but now its a new game especially if buying any here.To look and notice the different neckring,before i would not have picked this.I will be showing all this info to a friend that has just about every colour whwt bird and also some pieds.Im not sure he knows about this ino gene in the birds or not.Im going to ask if he has ever had any ino young from all his pairs.Maybe here in Australia we do not have this and only pure birds.Im not sure where the first whwt birds came from inot Australia but i would say neville armstrong(he translated bastiaans first book to english) or a man called Jack smith had the first whwt birds here.I know Neville use to get birds from bastiaan along way back and i have brought birds from neville and many others have to so anything is possible i guess.

[Recio]

So to get NSLino birds they have to be bred from whwt birds or not?.

It seems that, in origine, NSLino birds appeared within an heterozygous cleartail, but right now, it does not matter whether they belong to a stablished line of NSLino or if they appear as the "colateral" effects of cleartail breeding: the mutation is the same.

Me too I was thinking of getting lutino birds from breeders of cleartail, the problem is that you will never know if it is a SLino or a NSLino bird, excepting for males: SLino males have to come from lutino females, if you have a lutino male and his mother was not lutino, then you are sure that it is a NSLino male. So, you know what to look for . A female split cleartail is not that much expensive. NSLino male X female split clairtail = 50% clairtail phenotype (heterozygous phenotype) and 50% split ino, both for males and females. It is magic : getting cleartail birds from cheap available birds...

[Recio]

OK Jay . Now seriously: when a gene, as violet, is differently expressed by different birds, so that sometimes you can make the difference between DF and SF birds, but not always, it is called variable expressivity. It means that the amount of change in feather structure produced by just one allele is variable and you can not know in one particular bird if it is SF or DF just looking at its phenotypic appearance
Variable expressivity refers to the range of phenotypic changes that can occur in different living beings with the same genetic condition.

I'm serious Recio lol. If you cannot tell the difference between SF and DF, whether a result of variable expressivity or not, then the mutation is NOT incomplete-dominant. Mauve and Cobalt can easily be distinguished. In Violets, it cannot.

What you term as variable expressivity may be the result of minor inheritable gene modifiers.

Hi Jay;

What I have in mind is not easy to express and my english is not good enough. I will try but, maybe, you will have to read it many times before understanding what I mean. So first my excuses and now let's go:

1. I thinck that variable expresivity happens with every mutation and it makes every single bird unique, but for most mutations the range of change in depth of colouring dued to variable expresivity does not overlap other mutations. Ex: you will always be able to make the difference between cobalt and mauve because the reference coulours for each mutation are far away each other, even considering the possibility of variable expressivity.

2.Let's experiment in our minds:

2.1. Let's imagine violet as complete dominant: two possibilities:
a)Great variable expresivity: the colour of birds would range from light to depth violets in the same proportion whether they are SF or DF. This hypothesis does not fit with the results.
b) Little variable expresivity: the colour of birds would be uniform (the same depth of colouring) in both SF and DF birds. This hypothesis is not true.

2.2 Let's imagine violet as incomplete dominant: two possibilities:
a)Great variable expresivity: the colour of birds would have a great range, from light to depth violets. The proportion of depth violets would be greater among DF birds than among SF birds.
b) Little variable expresivity: the colour of birds would be clearly different between SF and DF birds. Our retina would only see clear violets (SF birds) and dark violets (DF birds). This does not fit reality.

As you can see there is only one hypothesis fiting findings: violet would be incomplete dominant with a great variable expresivity. Whether this great variable expresivity depends on blue genes, violet genes or both of them remains to be deeply discussed.
Hope you understand me.
Cheers
PS: We are all waiting for the corrections of our workhome

[Coastal-Birds]

Me too I was thinking of getting lutino birds from breeders of cleartail, the problem is that you will never know if it is a SLino or a NSLino bird, excepting for males: SLino males have to come from lutino females, if you have a lutino male and his mother was not lutino, then you are sure that it is a NSLino male.

From what i understand a NSLino (lutino has black eyes and not red).
I take it a NSL albino would have the same then?
If this is the case then ino birds would be easy to tell apart.

[Recio]

Me too I was thinking of getting lutino birds from breeders of cleartail, the problem is that you will never know if it is a SLino or a NSLino bird, excepting for males: SLino males have to come from lutino females, if you have a lutino male and his mother was not lutino, then you are sure that it is a NSLino male.

From what i understand a NSLino (lutino has black eyes and not red).

The phenotype of SLino and NSL is the same, both are yellow and both have red eyes. No way to make the difference just looking at the bird (may NSLino would be "more yellow" or golden (?)

I take it a NSL albino would have the same then?

Yes, it is the same bird but in the blue series

If this is the case then ino birds would be easy to tell apart

Unfortunately this is not the case.

[Coastal-Birds]

Ok so where do black eyed lutinos come from then?
There is a man not far from me with them,i think he has them on his web site

http://www.bbaviaries.com.au/

[Recio]

Hi Coastal birds,

I supose that when you speak of black eyed lutinos you are refering to the phenotype (visual appearence) of the birds.
When looking at this bird in his web it is difficult to appreciate the real colour of the bird (just one pic and light not terrible) but it seems to me that there is a greenish colouring in the body and wings, and that the head is far more yellow that the rest of the body. Besides when looking at the eyes .... they are not really black or red. It would be nice to get a closer pic.

I thinck this is one of the many types of lacewing phenotypes you can get and which were discussed some weeks ago:
http://www.indianringneck.com/board/vie ... t=lacewing

Colour of eyes can greatly change depending on mutations: here you have some examples: http://www.sunbird1.co.za/new_page_1.htm
As you can see there are far more possibilities than red and black.

A real lutino, with complete inability to produce melanin, will have red eyes, pale pinkish feet and nails, and the black component of his neck ring will be white. It happens in both SLino and NSLino. In the pic I see this greenish colouring of the body and it makes me thinck about subtypes of lacewing (ex: young male cin-pallid-ino)

It would be great to know the parents of that bird in the pic

Cheers

[Coastal-Birds]

Hmm i had not noticed the green,not sure if it real green or lighting on that bird.
But he is a big breeder of parrots and has a half sider.
There are birds here we call yellow headed cinnamons and they are not pallidinos as there are males hens in them also.
I have seen only a green and blue yellow headed cinnamon,blue of course has white head and both birds are very very pale colouring,much more pale than a pallidino.The blue whiteheaded cinnamon is so light it is almost white and only good sunlight shows you a touch of blue tint.
That fellow is not far from me i have spoken with him before but did not ask anything about that black eyes lutino.
I will try and find out what it was bred from.
I seem to think i also have something in a book on black eyed lutinos also,so will be another few hrs of trying to find it with all the paperwork i have about ringnecks and there mutations.
If i can find this book i will post what there is about them and from what they have come from.
Oh i thought i had genetics almost worked out and with all this and the cleartail inos im sort of back to the beginning.
Tommorow morning i have a breeder coming to see some of my birds and all he has are whwts and pieds so im going to see if he has ever had any lutino or albino young.I dont think he will tell me as i know no one wants ino in there good birds but we get on well so im keen to see what he says about it,i have printed out this topic for him to read and get some thoughts from him.
Cheers

[Jay]

Wow this thread really took off on me. Lucky I have the entire weekend to read through all the replies

[Coastal-Birds]

Okay I think I have finally got my head around this lol. It is still spinning. Now my mother is asking me questions and it is spinning more. So is recessive ino and NSL ino the same thing? It might be staring me in the face from the 35 pages I printed out but I can't see it.

Can you put a NSL cleartail (light ring) with a green/cleartail. My head is not processing this. Are there only green (wild type)/NSL inos or are we only discussing green because it is the most basic. lol

[Recio]

Okay I think I have finally got my head around this lol. It is still spinning.

You are not the only one

So is recessive ino and NSL ino the same thing?

Yes, it is the same mutation.

Can you put a NSL cleartail (light ring) with a green/cleartail. My head is not processing this.

Let's process: you will remark that I will only work on supositions based on what has been said here:

1. Let's consider NSLino and cleartail as different alleles of the same locus (it is probably the case from what Jay says).

2. Let's consider that light phenotypic cleartail are heterozygous cleartail-NSLino. This is to be proven since it seems that there are heterozygous birds with a dark colouring but may be it is just another example of variable expresion in an incomplete dominant mutation (cleartail), as it was discused earlier for violet (still waiting for comments or corrections). This point would be also true for cleartail-bronze fallow: since NSLino is codominant to bronze fallow we can easily supose that cleartail would be dominant to bronze fallow and then, heterozygous cleartail-bronze fallow would display a cleartail phenotype, probably lighter than the homozygous cleartail.
I have a problem with this theory: I have never hear of getting bronze fallows from cleartail breeding. May be it is just because they have appeared and evolved as separate mutations (it was not the case for NSLino and cleartail), may be because bronze fallow looks like a "durty" cleartail and no one has thought of bronzefallows whenever they have appeared in his colony (as oposite to lutino which are easy to remark)... mainly if he has remark that breeding this"durty" cleartail to normal cleartail produced normal cleartails.

And now let's processing after all the theory and supositions: light cleartail (heterozygous cleartail-NSLino) X will type split cleartail will produce:

25% dark cleartail (homozygous cleartail)
25% light ceartail (heterozygous cleartail, NSLino)
25% wild type split cleartail
25% wild type split NSLino

Are there only green (wild type)/NSL inos or are we only discussing green because it is the most basic.

Theory (always theory) says that they are independent mutations, so everything which is said for the green series is also good for the blue one, with the well known respective change in colours.

I say theory, always theory, since I have not any clearttail, NSLino or bronze fallow birds, I have never bred with them, and those are theoretical conclusions from what has been exposed here. That's why I love the results of experienced breeders. Reality is always far more complicated than theory.

Cheers

[Coastal-Birds]

Hi all
Well yesterday i had a man come over to see my birds and help work out what to do with my birds that dont like each other.
He has alot of cleartails and pieds,also opalines.
I asked him as we get on very well and he said he has birds that have light rings but never has had a ino young from them.
He thinks his original birds are from europe but not 100% sure.
But at the end of it she is giving me some split whwt birds for my help with lending him birds so im happy and some offspring from a violet pied which he has mated with my pastel grey.I know why did he do that im not sure but thats what he has done.
This is his website and has alot of his birds on it in great photos.

http://www.mcw-indianringnecks.com.au/PhotoGallery.html

[Jay]

Hi, I understand the first lady for your NSLino male, but I do not understand why to choose miss buttercup? What are your neurons cooking about NSLino and buttercup?

If Cleartail turns out to be allelic to NSLIno, and Bronze_Fallow is a proven allele of NSLIno, then Cleartail turns out to be a type of a Fallow.. or NSL Parino.

Breeding Cleartail to Buttercup will test if these two types of Fallows are allelic as well. Afterall, the two phenotypes look similar.

[Jay]

@Jay: Which eye color does your lutino offspring have?

From afar, the NSLInos that I produce look the same as SLInos. But if you look closely at their feathers, there seem to be less residual melanin... manifested by less grey stains on Blue series birds and less or absence of greenish sheen on NSL Lutinos.

I have talked to some breeders here in europe. they telled me that their rec. lutinos (100% breed from WKWS line) have a gold yellow (the portion of the yellow is higher) appearance (the flight feathers too). Why does your birds look different (to their rec. lutinos)?

Not sure if my NSLInos look different from the European NSLInos. Personal descriptions of what we see vary from person to person. So we can be looking at the same thing and yet expressing them in words differently.

All I know is my NSLInos look purer Yellow (or more pristine white) than their SLIno counterparts.

[Jay]

Hi, I understand the first lady for your NSLino male, but I do not understand why to choose miss buttercup? What are your neurons cooking about NSLino and buttercup?

Is it not obvious? If cleartail could be an allele of NSLino then perhaps clearhead Fallow too.

Hi Madas
Not, this is not obvious since it is well documented that cleartail and buttercup are independent mutations. But Jay knows it so I am just guessing ... he has another thought on the subject....

Sure, they are currently independent mutations. But I supposed no one has ventured testbreeding them just yet.

[Jay]

Hi Jay,Madas and Recio.
To get off topic a little bit i have read i think in the 2nd bastiaans book that pied is or can be made up from mating a bronze fallow and something else.Looking for what i read about this.
Have any of you heard of this??
Here in Australia there is a few dominant pied breeders but to buy one of these birds is at least $4000 for a green series bird.Also there are no rec pieds that anyone is aware of.
So now im thinking if i can get a NSLino bird maybe i could breed some pieds.But do you only get the NSLino birds from mating to whwt(cleartails) together or can you also get this from a pure and a split mating as here that is how we do it as the bloodlines are not crossed out enough for pure to pure yet.
Cheers

Dominant Pieds are rather cheap in the US. I sold all my Dominant Pieds for $300/bird.

NSLIno can off course be bred from breeding NSLInos together.

Hillerman Pieds are a type of Recessive Pied. I think Hillermans abound in Australia.

[Jay]

To clear something up for me the NSLino birds you are talking about are these all albino or lutino looking birds?
I am curious as i have a big whitehead and white tail breeder coming here to see some of my birds and im going to ask if he ever gets any albino or lutino looking young from his birds.But far as i know all breeders here breed a pure whwt with a split simply to get good genes and not get bad young.
I would be guessing if any did have these NSLino birds they would sell them off cheap as im sure no breeders here would want anyone thinking they have ino in there birds.Here ino or split to ino no one wants for reasons of breeding coulored birds only and especially in big dollar whwts or buttercups.

Try to get an NSLIno for as cheap a price as you can get it. If all these allelic relationships to the Fallows/Cleartails holds true, then you can produce these beautiful phenotypes at a fraction of the cost

[Jay]

OK Jay . Now seriously: when a gene, as violet, is differently expressed by different birds, so that sometimes you can make the difference between DF and SF birds, but not always, it is called variable expressivity. It means that the amount of change in feather structure produced by just one allele is variable and you can not know in one particular bird if it is SF or DF just looking at its phenotypic appearance
Variable expressivity refers to the range of phenotypic changes that can occur in different living beings with the same genetic condition.

I'm serious Recio lol. If you cannot tell the difference between SF and DF, whether a result of variable expressivity or not, then the mutation is NOT incomplete-dominant. Mauve and Cobalt can easily be distinguished. In Violets, it cannot.

What you term as variable expressivity may be the result of minor inheritable gene modifiers.

Hi Jay;

What I have in mind is not easy to express and my english is not good enough. I will try but, maybe, you will have to read it many times before understanding what I mean. So first my excuses and now let's go:

1. I thinck that variable expresivity happens with every mutation and it makes every single bird unique, but for most mutations the range of change in depth of colouring dued to variable expresivity does not overlap other mutations. Ex: you will always be able to make the difference between cobalt and mauve because the reference coulours for each mutation are far away each other, even considering the possibility of variable expressivity.

2.Let's experiment in our minds:

2.1. Let's imagine violet as complete dominant: two possibilities:
a)Great variable expresivity: the colour of birds would range from light to depth violets in the same proportion whether they are SF or DF. This hypothesis does not fit with the results.
b) Little variable expresivity: the colour of birds would be uniform (the same depth of colouring) in both SF and DF birds. This hypothesis is not true.

2.2 Let's imagine violet as incomplete dominant: two possibilities:
a)Great variable expresivity: the colour of birds would have a great range, from light to depth violets. The proportion of depth violets would be greater among DF birds than among SF birds.
b) Little variable expresivity: the colour of birds would be clearly different between SF and DF birds. Our retina would only see clear violets (SF birds) and dark violets (DF birds). This does not fit reality.

As you can see there is only one hypothesis fiting findings: violet would be incomplete dominant with a great variable expresivity. Whether this great variable expresivity depends on blue genes, violet genes or both of them remains to be deeply discussed.
Hope you understand me.
Cheers
PS: We are all waiting for the corrections of our workhome

I lean more towards 2.1.a explanation. Not sure why you think it does not fit breeding results because it does fit my breeding results.

If I show you a Violet and you cannot tell the difference between SF and DF, then the mutation does not fit the requirement of incomplete-dominance.

I will show you several pictures of Violets starting with these ones below. Tell me if these birds are SF or DF.

[Jay]

I have a problem with this theory: I have never hear of getting bronze fallows from cleartail breeding. May be it is just because they have appeared and evolved as separate mutations (it was not the case for NSLino and cleartail),

Recio,

I believe all IRN mutations evolved on their own and not simultaneously in one bird. You have to realize that these birds have been in existence in the wild for thousands of years and being that there are only 20 or so IRN mutations so far, it is hard to believe two mutations happening in one bird at the same time.

The supposed first Cleartail (or Cleartail-NSLIno) brought from Calcutta was probably not the first Cleartail that ever mutated. I think the bird just got its Cleartail gene from a parent and his NSLIno gene perhaps from another parent, who knows. I believe there are a bunch of other birds in the wild that are either split NSLIno, split Cleartail.. or heck.. visual Cleartails hehe.

[Recio]

Hi, I understand the first lady for your NSLino male, but I do not understand why to choose miss buttercup? What are your neurons cooking about NSLino and buttercup?

If Cleartail turns out to be allelic to NSLIno, and Bronze_Fallow is a proven allele of NSLIno, then Cleartail turns out to be a type of a Fallow.. or NSL Parino.

Breeding Cleartail to Buttercup will test if these two types of Fallows are allelic as well. Afterall, the two phenotypes look similar.

I thouht that crosmating whwt with buttercup to evaluate if they are alleles of the same locus had been done long ago since this is a recurrent question in the forum and the answer has always been that they are independent mutations. They look so similar (taken the tail out) that this is the first idea everybody has when looking at them. So it would be incredible that no one had tried to prove it till now

[Recio]

I'm serious Recio lol. If you cannot tell the difference between SF and DF, whether a result of variable expressivity or not, then the mutation is NOT incomplete-dominant. Mauve and Cobalt can easily be distinguished. In Violets, it cannot.

What you term as variable expressivity may be the result of minor inheritable gene modifiers.

Hi Jay;

What I have in mind is not easy to express and my english is not good enough. I will try but, maybe, you will have to read it many times before understanding what I mean. So first my excuses and now let's go:

1. I thinck that variable expresivity happens with every mutation and it makes every single bird unique, but for most mutations the range of change in depth of colouring dued to variable expresivity does not overlap other mutations. Ex: you will always be able to make the difference between cobalt and mauve because the reference coulours for each mutation are far away each other, even considering the possibility of variable expressivity.

2.Let's experiment in our minds:

2.1. Let's imagine violet as complete dominant: two possibilities:
a)Great variable expresivity: the colour of birds would range from light to depth violets in the same proportion whether they are SF or DF. This hypothesis does not fit with the results.
b) Little variable expresivity: the colour of birds would be uniform (the same depth of colouring) in both SF and DF birds. This hypothesis is not true.

2.2 Let's imagine violet as incomplete dominant: two possibilities:
a)Great variable expresivity: the colour of birds would have a great range, from light to depth violets. The proportion of depth violets would be greater among DF birds than among SF birds.
b) Little variable expresivity: the colour of birds would be clearly different between SF and DF birds. Our retina would only see clear violets (SF birds) and dark violets (DF birds). This does not fit reality.

As you can see there is only one hypothesis fiting findings: violet would be incomplete dominant with a great variable expresivity. Whether this great variable expresivity depends on blue genes, violet genes or both of them remains to be deeply discussed.
Hope you understand me.
Cheers
PS: We are all waiting for the corrections of our workhome

I lean more towards 2.1.a explanation. Not sure why you think it does not fit breeding results because it does fit my breeding results.

If I show you a Violet and you cannot tell the difference between SF and DF, then the mutation does not fit the requirement of incomplete-dominance.

Hi Jay;

I agree with you that for a particular bird it is not possible to say if he is SF or DF violet. But the question is not there but in the concept of probabilities:
Results from breeders show that the probability of having a DF violet is higher in deep violet IRN, and that the probability of having a SF violet is higher among clear violets (see post of Madas and yours). This fits better with the 2.2b hypothesis. Of course you can have deep violets SF birds and the opossite but it would be much less frequent. This is easier to show with graphics but I do not know how to post images from the scanner.
If it was a complete dominant inheritance with great variable expresivity the probability of getting Df or SF birds would be 50% independently of their colour, and as far as I know this is not the case.

Cheers

[Recio]

I have a problem with this theory: I have never hear of getting bronze fallows from cleartail breeding. May be it is just because they have appeared and evolved as separate mutations (it was not the case for NSLino and cleartail),

Recio,

I believe all IRN mutations evolved on their own and not simultaneously in one bird. You have to realize that these birds have been in existence in the wild for thousands of years and being that there are only 20 or so IRN mutations so far, it is hard to believe two mutations happening in one bird at the same time.

The supposed first Cleartail (or Cleartail-NSLIno) brought from Calcutta was probably not the first Cleartail that ever mutated. I think the bird just got its Cleartail gene from a parent and his NSLIno gene perhaps from another parent, who knows. I believe there are a bunch of other birds in the wild that are either split NSLIno, split Cleartail.. or heck.. visual Cleartails hehe.

I agree 100% with you. In fact I was meaning that both mutations (NSLino and cleartail) were present in the same bird from whom program breeding begun. I was not saying that they appeared at the same time in the same bird .... but ....but ... but ... there are mutations which are believe to appear only on mutated birds as a "willing" to recover the wild gene (back mutations) and thus finally constitute different alleles of the same gene. If NSLino and cleartails were diferent alleles of the same locus, maybe this was the mechanism, and then .... to cumulate a double mutation in the same locus .... it would not be that frequent. Why not: he could have been THE FIRST, hoho.

Cheers

[Jay]

Hi Jay;

I agree with you that for a particular bird it is not possible to say if he is SF or DF violet. But the question is not there but in the concept of probabilities:
Results from breeders show that the probability of having a DF violet is higher in deep violet IRN, and that the probability of having a SF violet is higher among clear violets (see post of Madas and yours). This fits better with the 2.2b hypothesis. Of course you can have deep violets SF birds and the opossite but it would be much less frequent. This is easier to show with graphics but I do not know how to post images from the scanner.
If it was a complete dominant inheritance with great variable expresivity the probability of getting Df or SF birds would be 50% independently of their colour, and as far as I know this is not the case.

Cheers

I agree that the probability of DF Violets being darker is true, it still doesn't agree with the definition that SF and DF birds are distinguishable among incomplete-dominant mutations.

[Jay]

Hi, I understand the first lady for your NSLino male, but I do not understand why to choose miss buttercup? What are your neurons cooking about NSLino and buttercup?

If Cleartail turns out to be allelic to NSLIno, and Bronze_Fallow is a proven allele of NSLIno, then Cleartail turns out to be a type of a Fallow.. or NSL Parino.

Breeding Cleartail to Buttercup will test if these two types of Fallows are allelic as well. Afterall, the two phenotypes look similar.

I thouht that crosmating whwt with buttercup to evaluate if they are alleles of the same locus had been done long ago since this is a recurrent question in the forum and the answer has always been that they are independent mutations. They look so similar (taken the tail out) that this is the first idea everybody has when looking at them. So it would be incredible that no one had tried to prove it till now

Same reason as before.

If you have invested $2000 on a visual Cleartail and $800 on a visual Buttercup. Would you risk producing Green birds from this pairing and lose a potential $4000 Cleartail clutch or $2000 Buttercup clutch? I won't. Afterall, IRN color breeding among rarer mutations is also an economic endeavor.

Once the prices of these birds reach sub $500, then perhaps I would personally endeavor to breed any spare bird.

[Recio]

[If you have invested $2000 on a visual Cleartail and $800 on a visual Buttercup. Would you risk producing Green birds from this pairing and lose a potential $4000 Cleartail clutch or $2000 Buttercup clutch? I won't. Afterall, IRN color breeding among rarer mutations is also an economic endeavor.

Once the prices of these birds reach sub $500, then perhaps I would personally endeavor to breed any spare bird.

Money .... always money .... such a pity!!!
Keep us posted about your NSLino boy and all his girlfriends for the next years to come

[Jay]

[If you have invested $2000 on a visual Cleartail and $800 on a visual Buttercup. Would you risk producing Green birds from this pairing and lose a potential $4000 Cleartail clutch or $2000 Buttercup clutch? I won't. Afterall, IRN color breeding among rarer mutations is also an economic endeavor.

Once the prices of these birds reach sub $500, then perhaps I would personally endeavor to breed any spare bird.

Money .... always money .... such a pity!!!
Keep us posted about your NSLino boy and all his girlfriends for the next years to come

Haha.. will do.

[Coastal-Birds]

Hi All
Back to the NSLino birds yet again.
Now here in Australia everyone will tell you they do not have these birds in whwt(cleartails) and no one has ever produced any.
Well ive spoken and visited a breeder who has breed
A Blue whwt with a Pastelblue whwt hen (both coloured Birds)
From this one of the babies was yellow.
Now from this if the cock was split ino then the pair could have had a White bird but it is not possible to get yellow.
So this yellow bird has to be a visual NSLino bird? Am i correct.
Now the pair has been split up so both parents must have the NSLino gene?.
The hen has since bred with a grey/whwt cock and produced 3 grey/whwt hens.
Do all these young hens carry the NSLino gene?.

Cheers

[madas]

Hi All
Back to the NSLino birds yet again.
Now here in Australia everyone will tell you they do not have these birds in whwt(cleartails) and no one has ever produced any.
Well ive spoken and visited a breeder who has breed
A Blue whwt with a Pastelblue whwt hen (both coloured Birds)
From this one of the babies was yellow.
Now from this if the cock was split ino then the pair could have had a White bird but it is not possible to get yellow.
So this yellow bird has to be a visual NSLino bird? Am i correct.
Now the pair has been split up so both parents must have the NSLino gene?.
The hen has since bred with a grey/whwt cock and produced 3 grey/whwt hens.
Do all these young hens carry the NSLino gene?.

Cheers

for getting NSLino offspring both parents (blue whwt and turquoise blue whwt) had to be hetereozygot cleartails aka cleartail NSLinos (act/act+). but then you will only get NSLino Albinos because both parents carry the blue gen. So are you sure that this pairing has produced a NSLino (lutino)?

To check if bronze fallow and cleartail are alleles of the same locus two breeeders have setup some pairing. One of them is Sjack Bastiaan. So in some months we wil see what theory is true.

Greetings.

[Coastal-Birds]

Yes both cleartails .
One of the babies was yellow not white which to me is impossiblee,but could it be something to do with the NSLino that made it lutino.
Here no one wants to know about this and finding one has taken me since this post started.
There is nothing to explain a lutino from two blue birds in any mutation but it has happened so trying to find out why or how .

[Recio]

Hi Todd;

How were the birds kept: with other IRN in a big aviary or as isolated pairs in boxes for reproduction? As you and Madas say it is not possible to get a lutino (either SL-ino or NSL-ino) from blue parents, so I would look for the possibility of a "foreing" egg layed by another female.

Cheers

Recio

[Coastal-Birds]

Hi
No the pair was by themselves.
All the birds from this breeder are kept in pairs and never houses together.
The cock now is on its own as he thought it was split ino,but a lutino baby that cant be right either from it.
Ive seen both parents and they are blue so another unknown thing has happened.