Bird 1
![Image](http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q758/Traceyweller/What%20am%20I/019JPGaaaa_zps14b30420.jpg)
![Image](http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q758/Traceyweller/What%20am%20I/157JPGaaaaaa_zpsf99f2c4d.jpg)
Bird 2
![Image](http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q758/Traceyweller/What%20am%20I/181JPGqqqqqqqqqq_zpseba99232.jpg)
![Image](http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q758/Traceyweller/What%20am%20I/182JPGaaaaaaaa_zps3dd4bc64.jpg)
bird 3
![Image](http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q758/Traceyweller/What%20am%20I/107_zpse02adcad.jpg)
![Image](http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q758/Traceyweller/What%20am%20I/001_zps9ff521c5.jpg)
bird 4
![Image](http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q758/Traceyweller/What%20am%20I/birds1098_zps67dc71d5.jpg)
![Image](http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q758/Traceyweller/What%20am%20I/birds1104_zpsf5ea2302.jpg)
Moderator: Mods
Edit: removed the nonsense. Corrected the rest.Traceyweller wrote:I added different angles if that helps
Bird 2
Bird 3
Youngster with whiter flights ?
Hi Johan,Johan S wrote:Hi Recio,
as always, a very welcome experience engaging with you (why are you so scarce these days?). You have some trouble with cinnamon-pallid, so let me try to address some of your points and maybe I can put your mind to ease.![]()
1. These birds all have light nails on my computer. Nothing darker than expected, except for the one picture showing a slight amount of melanin.
2. None of these birds have a dark beak on my screen. Birds 3 and 4 show a brownish lower mandible, as expected for cinnamon, but certainly nothing as dark to the wildtype. To me the darker (than ino) red is because the pictures are in slightly overcast conditions. They really are top notch and I also prefer these conditions.![]()
Something else, the lacewing pattern is reported for budgerigar, where the tips of the feather is dark with only melanin expressed, resp brown for cinnamon. That causes the lacewing pattern in cinnamon-ino (a discussion for another time: how does this natural feather phenotype affect the phenotype of the spangled budgie, and what should we really expect in a spangled IRN when taking this knowledge into account? Budgerigars are "naturally built" to express spangle better.). The inner part of the budgerigar feather shows psittacin and melanin in a similar effective green tone to an IRN, and that should be our exclusive consideration. There isn't a single cinnamon-ino IRN to my knowledge that shows the same lacewing pattern, where the outer part is darker than then inner part of the feather. The cinnamon-ino crossover starts out as a yellow bird, but shows an even green tinge as it matures. No lace pattern in the birds I've seen, unfortunately.It would have been awesome if it was the case.
You are right, I do feel the lighter head contributes towards the crossover. To be honest, my initial feeling was that it was mostly because birds tend to moult out first over their body, and then later the head, which leaves the year old faded feathers in the head with the vibrant new feathers over the body. However, clearly these birds aren't moulting, and discussions with Shey and Nigel then later lead to a Facebook discussion with some experienced breeders from Aus that confirmed that there is indeed a white head cinnamon line that have been doing the rounds in Australia for 10+ years (and almost disappeared!), which turns out to be a confirmed crossover with pallid.
Do you have some pictures of your violet green cinnamons? Cinnamon is such an under rated mutations, yours will be stunning birds.![]()
Maybe it isn't the right answer in this case, but it seems plausible to me. And a simple answer. I like simple.Thoughts?
PS: How old are the feathers? It could be fading due to direct exposure to the sun. The outer edges are exposed more than the inner parts.Recio wrote:Hi Johan,
...
PS (post edited): I have just had a closer look at the Cinnamon SL-Ino Violet green bird. You are rigth Johan: there is not a lacewing pattern with more melanin on the outer part of the feathers, but rather the opposite: a bit less melanin in the outer part of the feathers producing a ligth "barring" effect (not the same than lacewing). May be this barring effect is enhanced by the presence of Violet. I will try to take pics of this bird next week-end.
This is not a fading effect since the bird is only 4 months old and these markings were present at fledging.Johan S wrote:PS: How old are the feathers? It could be fading due to direct exposure to the sun. The outer edges are exposed more than the inner parts.Recio wrote:Hi Johan,
...
PS (post edited): I have just had a closer look at the Cinnamon SL-Ino Violet green bird. You are rigth Johan: there is not a lacewing pattern with more melanin on the outer part of the feathers, but rather the opposite: a bit less melanin in the outer part of the feathers producing a ligth "barring" effect (not the same than lacewing). May be this barring effect is enhanced by the presence of Violet. I will try to take pics of this bird next week-end.
Hi Madas,madas wrote:And you are 100% sure that both types inherit sex-linked recessive? Means if a normal male is paired to a mutated female you will only get mutated males?
The most common pairing used by bird hobbyists for sex-linked mutations is male /sexlinked mutation x sexlinked mutation female. But this pairing is telling nothing about the real inheritance of the mutation it self. The results are the same as for a true recessive mutation 50% mutated birds and 50% non mutated. So have set up pairs like mutated male x normal female or normal male x mutated female? If so what results did you get?
madas
Above Question is confusing (probably a Typo) , the rest makes sense to me.madas wrote:
... Means if a normal male is paired to a mutated female you will only get mutated males?...
Edit: removed the nonsense and corrected the rest. Even the quote above is nonsense regarding a sex-linked rec. mutationRing0Neck wrote:madas wrote: ... Means if a normal male is paired to a mutated female you will only get mutated males?...
Madas, I do not agree. I guess you have misread yourself because this is a matter you perfectly know. You should have written:madas wrote:Sorry i left one part "Means if a normal male is paired to a mutated female you will only get mutated males and non mutated females" So the expected results for a sex-linked mutation.
Ups. I have to apologize. You are completely right. Not my day.Recio wrote:Madas, I do not agree. I guess you have misread yourself because this is a matter you perfectly know. You should have written:madas wrote:Sorry i left one part "Means if a normal male is paired to a mutated female you will only get mutated males and non mutated females" So the expected results for a sex-linked mutation.
"Means if a normal male is paired to a mutated female you will only get split males and non mutated females" So the expected results for a sex-linked mutation"
or
"Means if a normal male is paired to a mutated female you will only get mutated males and non mutated females" So the expected results for a dominant sex-linked mutation
... and I think that pairing a split male for type 1 cinnamon to a mutated female for type 2 cinnamon is the best pairing to know if both cinnamon types are allelic or not.
Regards
Recio
I did want to say initially: "He is probably thinking of Edged"Ring0Neck wrote:Above Question is confusing (probably a Typo) , the rest makes sense to me...madas wrote:
... Means if a normal male is paired to a mutated female you will only get mutated males?...
Madas, I don't think that is the best approach to solving the mystery. Unfortunately, due to the very strong linkage between pallid and cinnamon, it will be hard to tell whether we are dealing with two distinct alleles of cinnamon, or rather the cinnamon-pallid crossover by looking at the hen offspring. They would need to be tested to have a conclusive answer. My suggestion is to breed the best looking "white headed" cinnamon male to a pallid hen. If a phenotypic pallid cock is produced, the mystery is solved right there and we'll know the sire carries pallid.madas wrote:So to rule out these possibilities you have to test breed a mutated male to a non mutated female. If Nigel is still getting mutated females from such a pair then we could deal with to distinct cinnamon mutations or even alleles.
madas
Hi Johan,Johan S wrote:Unfortunately, due to the very strong linkage between pallid and cinnamon, it will be hard to tell whether we are dealing with two distinct alleles of cinnamon, or rather the cinnamon-pallid crossover by looking at the hen offspring. They would need to be tested to have a conclusive answer. My suggestion is to breed the best looking "white headed" cinnamon male to a pallid hen. If a phenotypic pallid cock is produced, the mystery is solved right there and we'll know the sire carries pallid.
A question I think Recio would enjoy exploring is this: Would the cinnamon / pallid cock (a single crossed over gene) show a true cinnamon like head, or could the dilution already be visible in an intermediate form due to the the presence of brown melanin (placing us on a more sensitive part of the sigmoid curve) and a deactivating gene for head melanin (pallid).
And this is my assumption too. So i am saying that mostly 95% of the so called SL Edged(df)-Cinnamons or SL Edged(sf)-Cinnamons are in real only split for cinnamon and the hetereozyguos cinnamon gen is already expressed in the phenotype because of the linkage to SL Edged at the sex chromosome. The true SL Edged(df)-Cinnamon could be the birds of Antonio (Fusi) or the bird in question of Coastal-Birds.Recio wrote: In the past budgi breeders said that Cinnamon should be avoided in their breeding programs because even split birds were one step ligther than pure birds.
There did you get the info from that cinnamon and SL Edged are expressing a crossover rate of 25-30%? Who has proven this?Recio wrote: Against : this linkage is very easy to detect since SL Edge is dominant, and thus the SL-Edge phenotype would be easily detected in heterozygous Cinnamon-SL Edge combos. Besides the crossing over rate is around 25-30%, and with such a soft linkage, normal cinnamons and normal SL-Edge would appear quite quickly in any breeding program.
Recio wrote:Hi Madas;
1. About nails colour: it mainly depends on melanin content and much less on structural changes. The bird showing black nails, also show a darker skin and a greener belly than the one showing ligth nails. These findings point to a different level in melanin content between both birds. You are going to say that this is due to the different ligthing conditions ... and I am going to agree, but only partially. A pic with both types of birds in the same shot would be conclusive.
2. About the Cinnamon SL Edge crossing over rate .... Oups!!! I was thinking about Tienie's results with Opaline, so do not feel lonly. We all have the mind away from time to time
.
I agree with your reasoning and conclusions, but we can do it a bit more accurate by making calculations with the crossing over rate (P) instead of with the offspring ratio (OR).
P = OR/(1- OR) ....... and ....... OR = P/(1+P)
If we have got an OR of 35% for a linkage between SL-Edge and Opaline, the corresponding P (crossing over rate) is 0.50. P for Opaline-SL Ino is 0.428 (OR 30%). P for SL-Ino - Cinnamon is 0.031 (OR 3%). If we calculate the distance beween Cin and Opaline we get 0.428 + 0.031 = 0.459. If the distance between Edge and Opaline is 0.50 and the distance between Cin and Opaline is 0.459 then we can calculate the distance between Edge and Cinnamon:
2 possibilities depending on which side of the DNA strand we consider:
Very highly linked ... P = 0.50 - 0.459 = 0.041 ..... OR = 0.039 = 3.9%
Very softly linked ... P = 0.50 + 0.459 = 0.959 ..... OR = 0.489 = 48.9%
The most likely possibility is the first one (and thus the probability of getting a bird with both mutations would be around 3.9/2 = 1.95% as explained by Madas). The second one with an OR of 48.9% is unlike since it joins the general inheritance of mutations on different chromossomes (OR = 50%, P = 1).
Regards
Recio
Not for IRN. I'm not aware of the existence of the mutation (yet). I only know of it in the budgie, but maybe it has popped up in another species. I do believe that those numbers have been roughly established. Inte believes that slate and opaline are fairly far apart.Recio wrote:.... and what about Slate? Any study of recombination respective to other SL mutations?
Regards
Recio
Hi Recio, I haven't heard of SL Edged in budgies, only in the lineolated parrot. I agree with what you say (mostly). For me, there is still uncertainty over the order of the inner loci, SL Edged, Cinnamon and SL Ino. I don't think there is enough SL Edged opaline offspring yet to conclude it's OR or P. Not many of them have been bred, but at least we can conclude that crossing over is fairly easy (but not if it is more/less easy than for instance SL Ino and opaline).Recio wrote:Slate can not be located "to the other side" because 0.680 + 0.464 > 1, which is not possible. Thus Slate would be the first locus, followed by the complex SL-Edge (also in budgies?), Cinnamon, SL-Ino (we do not know which one is before the other), and further away to the other side is the Opaline locus.
Hi Johan,Johan S wrote:For me, there is still uncertainty over the order of the inner loci, SL Edged, Cinnamon and SL Ino. I don't think there is enough SL Edged opaline offspring yet to conclude it's OR or P. Not many of them have been bred, but at least we can conclude that crossing over is fairly easy (but not if it is more/less easy than for instance SL Ino and opaline).
Thought Intel is making computer CPUs. Are they dealing with birds genetic too?Recio wrote:confirmation from Intel
Oh, you clever, naughty boy!madas wrote:Thought Intel is making computer CPUs. Are they dealing with birds genetic too?Recio wrote:confirmation from Intel![]()
madas