Neko the new guy

Donovan · Post by **Donovan** » Sun Jun 01, 2014 3:39 pm

Okay so today Neko's damaged feather fell out.. it looked rough but he's no worse for it.

and on a side note he's in full IRN mode today and being completely annoying like a 3yo toddler.. getting into everything and constantly having to be corrected.

Also I never realized it until now but I actually successfully trained Mr. Bell to do his business away from my desk and away from my shoulder.
Neko keeps dropping right on my desk. Mr Bell always flies away to do it. And yesterday after I had a shower Mr. Bell landed on my shoulder and was playing in my hair.. Abruptly he flew away... pooped,.. then came back... I thought that was pretty awesome, plus I appreciated it lol

I guess I should pay more attention to Neko and encourage him to poop in other places.

Donovan · Post by **Donovan** » Fri Jun 06, 2014 4:29 pm

Neko's Aggression:

When given the opportunity Neko will shoo Mr. Bell away by advancing in an aggressive manner.

When I am there for it I will intercept Neko and put my finger under his chest (making him step up). This allows Mr. Bell to do his thing without Neko making him leave.

I see this as a form of negative reinforcement for Neko because sometimes he wants to Be in that spot or play with that toy or eat from that bowl, and I am doing a sort of time-out.

Can we think of any reason why this is bad?
and if so can we think of an alternative?

I can

I have noticed that Neko will stop advancing on Mr. Bell as long as he has something in his foot like a toy or a piece of food. I don't want to keep shoving food and toys in his face to keep him from shooing Mr. Bell away because I'm concerned that he'll see it as a positive reinforcement.
Shoo Mr. Bell away = get a treat

Donovan · Post by **Donovan** » Sun Jun 15, 2014 2:46 pm

Poor Neko.. he's taken so many spills from trying to fly that he has like 3 tail feathers left.. two of which are bent.

I found one in the floor today and at its base it had what seemed to be a smaller feather growing in. I do suspect he's undergoing a small first molt.

Unfortunately i've had trouble finding -when- the first molt occurs. I know the information is on the forum but the search function could use a little reworking

okay, So -when- does the first molt (moult) occur?

----------------

On a side note, despite the perpetual tension between my birds, ... given the opportunity Mr. Bell will put himself to bed on an external perch on Neko's cage and they'll sleep shoulder to shoulder. This is rare but once in a blue moon I do actually get out of the house and come home very late, and every time I do, I find Mr. Bell on that outside perch right next to Neko, only the cage bars separating them.

MissK · Post by **MissK** » Sun Jun 15, 2014 9:03 pm

Awwwwwwwwwwwwwww!

We're having an "aawwwwww" moment tonight as well. Sinbad, so scared of everything, finally eating his peanut and making a little noise like a crying dog with a Ringneck accent. My heart really goes out to him, poor little bugger.

Donovan · Post by **Donovan** » Tue Jun 17, 2014 5:12 pm

ugh, poor Neko... I come home from work, let him out of his cage... leave the room for 30 minutes to have a beer and relax.. ..
I come back and both birds are on the floor.
Mr. Bell has managed to access the treat bag and it is scattered everywhere(x3)..
and neko is down there too with a bloody tail feather again.

So .. that does it.. no more unsupervised excursions for Neko until he can fly.
I watched him the other day when he took a leap of faith. He lands right on his rear.. like .. he tries to. His tail feathers are so beat up right now and I guess he's going through a molt.

I am not sure when they have their first molt though.

Neko is now 5 months old.. could he be molting right now?..

Donovan · Post by **Donovan** » Thu Jun 19, 2014 6:59 pm

They don't think I'm watching, but mr bell is regurgitating for neko tonight and neko is accepting it

9 times out of 10 neko makes him go away.. or mr bell goes to this spot to pick a fight, but tonight they're okay

MissK · Post by **MissK** » Thu Jun 19, 2014 10:15 pm

You think he's taking care of the baby or expressing his love? I'm a little bit interested in that because Rocky has his regurgitation hobby and I wonder if *one day* he might share it with Sinbad instead of the cage walls and floor.

Donovan · Post by **Donovan** » Fri Jun 20, 2014 1:21 am

well sometimes mr bell might sit in front of a mirror regurgitating (or doing the gesture), It's usually right before bed time he finds something to show his favor to.
I don't know his motivations. But I don't believe he was doing it because Neko is young. He was doing it as a matter of routine. He usually goes to his favorite mirror but this time he didn't. Maybe he tries all the time and neko chases him off... i don't know.

MissK · Post by **MissK** » Fri Jun 20, 2014 9:21 am

(nodding) Huh. Let me know if you have any further insights. This is an interesting topic for me, of necessity.

Donovan · Post by **Donovan** » Fri Jun 20, 2014 9:51 am

i'm sure as neko gets older and especially when he starts getting hormonal that he'll be more receptive to he and mr bell feeding each other.

what does rocky regurgitate for?.. his reflection?.. for you?.. for his little budgie girlfriend?..

InTheAir · Post by **InTheAir** » Fri Jun 20, 2014 2:38 pm

I think mine had their little moult at about 6 months old.
Does Neko have a really bad clip? I haven't had a clipped bird, but I was under the impression that a "good" clip allows the bird to glide downwards safely. Reading this thread makes me even more anti-clipping! Get him imped with mr bells old flights! That'd look pretty funky.

I think I read a thread in the breeders section that had references to "Bromances" in aviary birds. It was quite a while ago, so I can't remember which thread.

Donovan · Post by **Donovan** » Fri Jun 20, 2014 3:29 pm

I have no interest in breeding birds. I had considered it briefly but then I didn't like the idea that probably 80% of them would go to inappropriate homes. I don't want to contribute to that sort of thing.

So I got another male .. and with that they'll just have to have a bromance lol.. (what a term!).

Neko drops like a rock when he tries to fly. I watched him one day. He has a tendency to land with his tail feathers pointed down so it's no surprise he's having the issues he's having.

As such his freedom has now been severely restricted. No more unrestricted time outside the cage.
Before I bought him I noticed a facebook post from that breeder that showed he and all his brothers (5 lutinos in the clutch, all male) had taken their first flights and would now be clipped.

Weeks later when I went to go finish purchasing him they took him into a little side room and clipped his toenails and did more clipping on his wings. I was distracted at the time and when I realized what they were doing I asked that they not do it. The lady said he'd already been fully clipped previously and was just evening up the wings. Either way I didn't like it.

The people are very professional and know birds very well. They just have a different philosophy. They didn't appreciate knowing that I had a fully flighted bird and warned strongly against it.

Not to worry though. He will never again have his nails or wings clipped.

Donovan · Post by **Donovan** » Fri Jun 20, 2014 3:32 pm

oh, funny story... sorta...

When mr bell was still very young and couldn't fly yet (he was also clipped when i bought him) he jumped/flew away from me and landed on my dog's back. This didn't go over well with the dog and she was trotting around the living room with her tail tucked trying to get away from mr bell who was riding on her back.

It was funny to see, but i'm sure it wasn't very funny to the animals.

InTheAir · Post by **InTheAir** » Fri Jun 20, 2014 4:14 pm

Bromances and man-dates are all the rage in aus, though it is used in reference to guys who are friends hanging out, not dating.

That's very nice of you to say the breeder was very professional, I'm afraid I'm not convinced. Irns shouldn't fly like a rock and they certainly shouldn't be hurting themselves as a consequence of a clip.

I often look over the breeding threads to find more info on behaviour. I like to learn about natural behaviour and habits of a species. I think that the more I know about them, the more I can adjust my bird keeping to suit them. I have even read quite a lot about raising babies, even though I hope to never do it!

MissK · Post by **MissK** » Fri Jun 20, 2014 9:56 pm

1) Rocky seems to regurgitate to whatever is there, though never to me or his mirror. He largely ignores the mirror, really. He will put it on a toy, on a rope, on cage wire (side or grate), on vegetables, on pellets, inside beads, on the seashell...... He will eat a nut and then hang the shell up on the side of the cage and feed it. He's very resourceful!

I strongly hope one day he will stop regurgitating but, failing that, that he will do it only for Sinbad, and that Sinbad will be fine with that. I don't know the odds of that hope seeing reality, but it's all I've got.

2) It strikes me as possible that Neko is landing on his tail because he may be using it to (try to) brake on the way down. It makes me a little upset, to think of poor Neko doing the bird equivalent of standing on the brake pedal while the car continues to move forward and crash.

3) Nothing should fly like a rock except an actual rock, and maybe that one guy I hate. Oh, and that other guy I hate. Just them. And rocks. Not animals.

Donovan · Post by **Donovan** » Sat Jun 21, 2014 2:24 pm

Does Rocky regurgitate and make a mess with it?..

Mr Bell generally keeps his lunch to himself. I haven't seen his regurgitation gestures as a problem. Maybe i successfully discouraged it. There were times when I was giving him attention and then abruptly stopped giving attention when he'd start doing the neck thing. So I guess it was sort of like negative reinforcement.

And yes, Neko is landing on his tail because he's trying so hard to slow down. I've watched it. He's definitely standing on the brakes.

InTheAir · Post by **InTheAir** » Sat Jun 21, 2014 2:50 pm

Negative punishment = removing reward to decrease the likelihood of behavior being repeated

There's a little quadrant diagram on this page that I find helpful for not confusing my +s and -s. http://k9coach.blog.com/2012/12/02/apdt ... -part-two/

MissK · Post by **MissK** » Sat Jun 21, 2014 10:42 pm

A mess. Why yes; yes he does!

Poor little Neko. I'm starting to want the person who clipped him to fly like a rock. I'm just not very nice, I guess!

Donovan · Post by **Donovan** » Thu Jun 26, 2014 5:41 pm

alright..

Neko's cage is a little bigger than mr bell's. I'm kinda interested in possibly moving mr bell into nekos cage. He goes in there sometimes anyway.. to steal food or look out the window.

When I close the door on him he gets upset shortly afterward and wants out. Can we think of any way to merge these guys into one cage?... smoothly...
I am considering putting mr bell to bed in neko's cage instead of his own. I wonder if that in itself might make things a little simpler.. to sleep and wake up together. But i'm not sure that's a good idea.
I mean.. i could -just do it- and force them together and i'm sure they'd adapt well enough inside of a week. But i'd rather do it without upsetting mr bell too much.

do we have any ideas?

MissK · Post by **MissK** » Thu Jun 26, 2014 9:21 pm

Any reason this cannot come back to good old fashioned bribery? Treat that good ol' boy!

Donovan · Post by **Donovan** » Fri Jun 27, 2014 3:20 pm

treats are plentiful inside neko's cage.. he seems to prefer going there to eat seed and pellets over his own cage.

Donovan · Post by **Donovan** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 4:55 am

Well Neko is really growing up. He is getting to where he no longer wants to be petted. He lets me, but as i'm reaching for him he gets a little attitude and makes a specific grumbling sound. Once I start petting him he gets into it, but usually I will back off if he protests in any way. It's interesting tho because when he's in the right mood I can tell he wants to be touched by the way he will squint his eyes.

Donovan · Post by **Donovan** » Sat Jul 05, 2014 6:14 am

This morning Mr. Bell is outside in the big cage and Neko is inside still. I have confirmed that they're still talking to each other through 2 walls and about a hundred feet between them.

They were both screeching. I looked outside and see Mr. Bell pacing back and forth until he hears neko screeching from inside the house, then he stops and perks up to listen and returns the call. I can barely hear mr bell from inside but i'm guessing the birds hear each other just fine and are calling to each other

Donovan · Post by **Donovan** » Sat Jul 05, 2014 1:36 pm

So.. about 7 hours later..

both birds have been outside for a while now.. it's pretty hot today. The air is stagnant and thick with humidity and it's just miserable out there... about 95 degrees (35c) (they have access to shade)

So I turned the garden hose on.. with a mist nozzle set up to mist the cage.. well low and behold mr bell is finally interested in taking a shower

..
He flew around trying to get away from the water at first but when he saw neko shaking around and bathing he decided it was a good idea for him to do it too..

Since then I've turn the water on for 5-10 minutes each hour and each time i've done it mr bell has made a point to get in the mist.

This is good since he has gone weeks without bathing. Like he was on bath strike or something for a while. Neko on the other hand never misses an opportunity for a bath.

In the meantime I'm enjoying having them outside and not breathing down my neck all day

.. the outside cage is like... a babysitter

Donovan · Post by **Donovan** » Sat Jul 05, 2014 3:28 pm

Boring and pretty well uneventful but why not
the garden hose misting

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43UkCdLfzKA

nozzle on bottom left

Donovan · Post by **Donovan** » Sat Jul 05, 2014 5:52 pm

So I created this thread so I could spam the forum in just one little thread .. so now my 4th or so post in here today...

I was just getting ready to bring the birds in from outside... From across the yard I told Neko to turn around.. and he did it lol.... a full 360...
I didn't think he'd do it without a treat present but he did and well I felt like a jerk for not giving him anything..

anyway.. i thought it was really cool that he understood .. out of context

MissK · Post by **MissK** » Sat Jul 05, 2014 8:48 pm

I really enjoyed reading about their adventures today.

InTheAir · Post by **InTheAir** » Tue Jul 08, 2014 2:48 am

That aviary looks like heaven! It's the middle of winter here and a little cold. Our guys had bathtubs, but haven't been using them and I've been away so they haven't had a shower for a few days (my boyfriends work hours don't suit winter bathing, they sleep on the perch while he showers). They went mental when I took them into the bathroom! Sapphire found that she could hang from the door and rub herself on the glass to catch the spray when it is my turn for the water.
It makes me wonder how they would cope in the wild, it hasn't rained here for over a week.

Ps. my shower was horrible, Sapphire had chilli juice on her face and shook it off into my eye (again) and the ambient temperature was about 17 degrees Celsius in our house, so the cold shower was most unpleasant!

Donovan · Post by **Donovan** » Tue Jul 08, 2014 12:05 pm

The youtube link is a crappy quality 50something second view inside the cage while the garden hose was raining on them.

Fairly boring but I enjoy watching them shower.
Mr bell flies to the dry side. Poor neko can only climb then has trouble getting around the frame of the cage.

Since then i've installed handicap railing at each of those points in the cage.

Donovan · Post by **Donovan** » Wed Jul 09, 2014 5:25 pm

Ya know, I gotta say, the little effort I took to "potty" train Mr. Bell was far more effective than I realized until I got Neko

Donovan · Post by **Donovan** » Sun Jul 13, 2014 5:06 pm

for the love of god.. these birds are like little vultures.

I sit down with a burger and next thing I know i have a bird crawling up my arm towards my hand with his beak wide open and the other on my head leaning over in my face going, "what about me?"

Donovan · Post by **Donovan** » Mon Jul 14, 2014 4:31 pm

This weekend's aviary shower..... very very hot outside.. both of them very glad I turned the water on.
(this cage is not as cluttered with perches as it looks in a picture

)

Donovan · Post by **Donovan** » Mon Jul 14, 2014 4:40 pm

InTheAir wrote:When Nila went through a little phase of not wanting to be in his cage, my boyfriend and I realised we had to make his cage a treat (our guys are out of their cages most of the day every day). He loves foraging, so we would set a heap of toys and puzzles up and show him they were there and he'd go straight in to play. We left the doors open, so he knew he could leave if he wanted to.

Last night I had an issue getting Mr. Bell to go to bed... to the point I gave up and just went to bed myself. This means he was loose all day while I was at work. So I'm getting the idea again that I need to work on his desire to go into his cage at night.
Sometimes he's willing, other times he's not.

When he's not willing I just turn all the lights out, get him on my finger and put him in his cage. Last night he decided that he knows what i'm up to and come hell or high water he would -not- be locked up.

So I'm gonna have to make his cage into the most awesome place in the world.

Neko spends little time out of his cage. He -likes- being in his cage. I let him out, he gets on top and eats.. plays with a couple of foot toys, then goes back into his cage when he gets bored. Mr. Bell's behavior issues are a direct result of my lack of knowledge when I got him. There is a mix of bad experiences and being spoiled when it comes to being put away into his cage.

Neko's experiences are far different and this is probably why he's completely willing to go back into his cage.. i've taken different approaches to each bird....
Anyway... it's frustrating that mr. bell won't cooperate... it's also frustrating that i do know and understand what i need to do to properly condition him but i don't want to spend what little free time i have doing that. Weekend mornings are great for me.. work day evenings are not... So this is gonna take a while.

Donovan · Post by **Donovan** » Sat Aug 09, 2014 11:41 am

Holding Nekos beak with my thumb and finger is like rocking a baby.. it puts him to sleep.

Donovan · Post by **Donovan** » Sun Aug 10, 2014 12:08 pm

turns out cats and birds are a good mix after all.

Last night my cat spent the night inside. I woke up about 4am to him playing and making a ruckus.
Turned out he was after a mouse that was underneath Neko's cage.

I hate to think how long that mouse has been eating stray bits of bird seed.. ugh... anyway the cat cornered the mouse but couldn't get to it. I moved something out of the way and it was just sitting there all freaked out and scared to move. I put a towel over it... caught it.. and took it for a long walk outside. No I didn't kill it. He had a nick on top of his head and another one on his leg but he seemed okay so i let him go far away from the house. I walked him out into an open field next to my house.. with lots of food sources between there and my house.

So.. the birds being so messy with little bits of food surrounding the cage area drew in a mouse.. and the cat caught on and did something about it... good stuff, and assuming the mouse didn't have any life threatening injuries got off pretty dang lucky.

MissK · Post by **MissK** » Sun Aug 10, 2014 9:54 pm

Once upon a time I used to hunt mice in my mother's kitchen with my old stray tom cat. He was well fed and a bit lazy about the hunt. He would see the mouse and watch it go, but not chase. I would bring the cat in range and expose the mouse. All I would see then was the cat seeing the mouse and then the cat pointing the other way with the mouse in his mouth - nothing in between. He was fast and he was deadly, just rather lazy about getting to that point. I miss him.

Donovan · Post by **Donovan** » Sat Aug 16, 2014 10:37 am

found a fun new feature on my phone which allows me to capture more in-flight pics so don't be surprised if i spam this neko thread with flight pics for a while

Donovan · Post by **Donovan** » Sat Aug 16, 2014 10:39 am

Just need an actual digital camera.. high speed and high def.. that picture would have been fully in focus with the right camera

InTheAir · Post by **InTheAir** » Thu Aug 21, 2014 2:46 am

It's still cool pic! My mum gave us her old high quality digital camera and even I can take good photos now. It's amazing!

MissK · Post by **MissK** » Sat Aug 23, 2014 7:38 pm

I concur; it's still a cool pic!

Donovan · Post by **Donovan** » Mon Aug 25, 2014 5:58 pm

So,.. does your bird ever get too excited about something and just bite the **** out of you for it?

Mr. Bell just peeled my finger back while i was playing with him. I don't think he was being aggressive.. just got too excited..... in any case it was game over.

I'm not sure if that's the right lesson to teach... (bite hard at the end of the game)

MissK · Post by **MissK** » Wed Aug 27, 2014 7:12 pm

I would think it might be par for the course - they do get excited and really nail the toys from time to time. No actual data from our house, though, just conjecture.

Melika · Post by **Melika** » Thu Aug 28, 2014 9:12 am

Thanks for sharing all your experienced and pictures. I agree, this is a good way to do it!

Do they live in the aviary? -curious-

Donovan · Post by **Donovan** » Thu Aug 28, 2014 9:42 am

They live inside and go to the aviary on the weekends while i'm home.

One bird can't fly yet so I like to be around when he's outside. He has to climb everywhere still so I check on him every few minutes

AJPeter · Post by **AJPeter** » Thu Aug 28, 2014 11:57 am

The secret way not to get bitten is to keep your fingers out of their beaks.

Donovan · Post by **Donovan** » Thu Aug 28, 2014 6:31 pm

LOL I'm such a jerk, sorta..

Neko being so young still the only thing i've really taught him is to turn around for a treat...

I got a laugh out of him just now... I gave him a piece of chicken and right after I gave it to him I told him to turn around... hahah.. and he did... treat came before the deed...

I guess we have the honor system going on.

Donovan · Post by **Donovan** » Fri Aug 29, 2014 11:03 am

Well Neko made his opinion of the Aviary very clear to me just now.

Since he can't fly yet i'm able to take him out on my finger. Well this time about half way from the house to the cage he realized where he was going.. he zeroed in on the cage.. leaned forward real far, held on tight with his feet and started flapping like hell.

When we got close enough he tried to fly the rest of the way, but of course he just fell (poor guy i wish they hadn't clipped his wings). He was really excited to go out.

-----------

I also started teaching him to play fetch today. He's a really quick learner. All we've done though is let him take the ball and drop it. I kept catching it every time so i decided to miss it a few times on purpose so he'd get the concept of "no treat if it doesn't go to my hand"

The sad part about this is I had to leave mr bell outside by himself for about an hour while i played with Neko haha.

Oh!.. haha.. yeah, and when I took him outside a humming bird came and checked him out. I guess because he's so bright yellow.. it only lasted a couple of seconds but it buzzed down and hovered about 3ft away.. looked at us and left.

MissK · Post by **MissK** » Fri Aug 29, 2014 8:01 pm

Sounds nice,

AJPeter · Post by **AJPeter** » Sat Aug 30, 2014 11:46 am

Some of the people around here hum a bit

Donovan · Post by **Donovan** » Mon Sep 01, 2014 5:30 am

AJ... it turns out you're right about keeping your finger out of their beaks.. that really does the trick on avoiding being bitten....

In today's Neko news, he has started doing the signature IRN heart wings when i talk to him... thought that was neat.. he's 7 and a half months old now... he's starting to cluck when I talk to him also...

I say, "Helloooo I'm Neko!... Yeah!!" .. he always clucks alot after the word Hello.. and does the wings after "yeah"