IndianRingNeck.com

I am against to use animal foods for ringnecks
Parrots are vegeterian birds, so they must not eat animal food ( meat,chicken,bone,milk and milk products).
The only reason to give meat is for proteins but irn take the appropriate amount from seeds or pellets.
Animal food is dangerous for microbiology reasons and ethism birds to cannibalism and to murder other birs and is suspicius for brain ill.
I have 20 years ringnecks without animal products in their food and all the birds are at very good contition and never ill. If we want give extra proteins to birds a boiled egg yolk is perfect.
I think various seeds or pellets, fresh vegetables and fruits and a mix of multivitamins with amino acids and minerals in drink water a day per week is absolutelly enough for ringnecks.
of coarse if we learn ringnecks to eat animal products they eat them. In the same way if we learn human babies to eat per example human meat, babies dont eat human meat after?



GREEN
NO RED
IS THE COLOUR OF OUR BIRDS FOOD

well, its great that you think this way, but for the sake of an argument, since it was stated first...

without animal products in their food and all the birds are at very good contition and never ill. If we want give extra proteins to birds a boiled egg yolk is perfect.

your saying no animal products, but in the next sentence say to use eggs? Eggs are animal protein...

Animal food is dangerous for microbiology reasons and ethism birds to cannibalism and to murder other birs and is suspicius for brain ill.

I must disagree with this also. If it is pre-cooked, and WE can eat it with our poor digestive systems (yes, humans have BAD digestive systems) I'm fairly certain that birds can also. I do NOT think we should be feeding a FID french fries, which IS NOT an animal protein.. But go ahead and give them some chicken.

On the same tangent; your saying that its cannibalism, but eating egg is okay? I have NEVER EVER heard of a bird becoming a cannibal from eating meat, or eating scrambled eggs for that matter, which probably kinda IS a form of cannibilism...

hi swanwillow

you have right , animal products isnt the right word
i think milk and meat products is exactly that i mean.
in nature wild birds dont kill chickens or other animals so they dont eat meat, in the same way dont drink milk.
egg of course is ok because egg yolk is the only food that bird eat while is in his egg. Egg for birds is the same that milk is for mammals and human too.
You know before few years the mad cows in england and in other counties. This happen because cows ( are vegetarian also like irns)feeding with meat products because they are cheap.
Also engephalopathy is presents in humans too.
in africa some human eat human meat and engephalopathy is present.
Chickens also feeding with meat products ,but engephalopathy in not present because chicks kills at early stage (27 days of life)
Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy (BSE) or mad cow disease is a chronic, degenerative disorder affecting the central nervous system of cattle. There are common last years paralisis and deaths in parrots....
In bibliography has post many cases of cancers and neoplasma in birds and irn too! Maybe the food is the reason.
I agree with you for french fries,Cooked human meal is also not appropriate for bird.
i want tell you more, but my english isnt so good....

milk products cant use from birds digestive system (lactose and milk proteins is the problem)

im going to have to disagree with you sorry, my boy eats pretty much everything i eat and is healthy and happy. I dont see the problem with them eating meat, plus my boy has a little and i mean a little bit of milk products like cheese and milk, he doesnt like egg but loves chicken.

Nil,

You mentioned some BSE-like symptoms in parrots. Are these documented anywhere? I'd be very interested in reading more about this.

Thanks
Jim

hi Jeam
Encephalopathy have post at cows,sheep,gows,human,... and has
connected with the consuption of animal meat and especially brains,intestines,bones,offals from vegetarian animals or human. For this reason european commumity has prohibit the human consuption of animal offals,bones,brains,ao.
Encephalopathy presented at the middle age.
Human raise domestic animals, cows,sheeps live for many years, but chickens abd turkies only live from 27 days to 2 years, so the posts are extremely few for birds.
i said that in birds and especially in parrots have posts a serious percentage ( 25%) of paralisis incidents (like the syptoms of engephalopathy), cansers and neoplasma and maybe the food is the reason because all the above animal feed with meat derivatives.
Human ill with engephalopathy when eat human meat ( i dont remember the name of the doctor who discuver that,he was American at 50s and i think took Nobel)
For paralisis, neoplasma and cansers at exotic birds (include parrots) i have papers from a meeting of greek veterinarian university ,2005 but is at greeks.
i look if i found something in internet or in english.

umm, I don't think many of us are feeding bones, brains, by-produce to our birds

well, at least, not cooked!

this IS a good discussion though

It's not that someone just tossed a spinal cord in front of their bird and said have at it. The problems with BSE occured when manufacturers of cattle feed were using nervous system tissue as part of their formulation. Cow eats feed. British person eats cow. Ten to fifteen years later about two dozen British people develop terrible neurological problems. I think that Nil is implying that something similar has happened with parrots. The disorder was first recognized in sheep and given the name "sheep scrapie" and then a similar disorder was found among native tribes in New Guinea that practice a form of cannibalism on deceased relatives. The thing that has me curious here is that although spongiform encephalopathy has shown the ability to jump species through the food chain in mammals this is the first I've heard of it in avian species.

If you're interested, an excellent account of the evolution of what's commonly known as Mad Cow Disease can be found in the book "Genome" by Matt Ridley.

Jim

it is nice to hear your thoughts nil.
i am vegan so my ten years male is vegan too.
It is so cruel the animals killing

neither i do any meat products to my boy
I havent eagle, but parrot
i dont like the american style food ( fast foods)

The center of a chicken bone is good for them. Mine love it!! And I enjoy a good steak now and then. And who wouldn't love a Micky D's fry (no salt) once in a while.



Donna

Some animals break the rules of the 'food chain' and we are at the top, its only natural for us to eat meat. Now, I'm not going to go into 'evolution' because thats a whole other debate. But meat has done us good. Our brains wouldn't be as good as they are without it. My mums best friend was a vegan, the doctor told her she needs to eat meat because she was unhealthy, now she eats chicken. Its seems every vegan/vegetarian that I've know has been dangerously ill and has at some point had to eat meat to live!
I don't believe a bird will turn into a cannibal if animal products are fed to them. Its not like we throw a live chicken at them. Do they even know what they are eating? I think not.
I do agree that animal products might be dangerous to us though. I eat more chicken than red meats, only because I just prefer chicken! But the chickens they sell nowdays are HUGE! Obviously because of 'additives' fed to the chickens and free range/organic foods are so expensive here! I'm no vegan but I do want the animal product I eat to have lived a happy life, hormone free and to be killed humanely. But you just never know what the meat is doing to us these days. There needs to be more laws over the food we eat. But... I'll still get my KFC and Hungry Jacks.. because well, were only human.

Erm, why would anyone give there birds by products?

Jibby loves a piece of chicken! One of his favourite foods. I rarely give it to him though. I feed my birds an egg and shell once every fortnight and they devour that!

I think I'm going to quit feeding my birds veggies altogether. We had a E-coli recall on spinach and lettuce and a few years ago a gentelmen from another board lost a whole aviary of expensive birds due to grapes from Chilli. Face it no matter what we put in our mouths now a days we're risking our lifes I used to eat a lot of natural foods until I learned that most people die of natural causes. Health nuts are going to feel stupid someday, lying in hospitals dying of nothing. So eat drink and be merry!!



Donna

DITTO! Thats what I keep telling my mum when she tells me to stop doing this stop doing that stop eating this stop eating that! Blah Blah Blah. Is she healthy? No!

I've always gotten a chuckle out of driving through McDonald's for my kids while driving 30 miles across town to buy organically grown papaya and broccoli for the birds.

That reminds me Lauren - Do they still have the McOz burgers with carrots and beets in Australia?

Funny how the only fruit and vegies here are for the birds, and if they let me, we share!

Yes! We do have McOz burgers here. But I'm not a fan of beets so I dont eat it. I don't understand why you'd put beets on a burger?

n nature wild birds dont kill chickens or other animals so they dont eat meat

in the wild birds do eat meat eagles, hawks, voltures, magpies, kookaburras, and chickens all eat meat they kill mice rats snakes chickens rabbits etc. cookie gets fish and chicken and is very healthy.

maybe a beer and a cigar are nice for your parrot too, donna

hello everyone!
thanks fiona j, i agree with you.
i am lacto - ovo vegetarian and my birds are ovo-vegetarian, lol.
Every human is free to choose if eat meat, but meat is not nessecery for human health.
There are many millions of vegetarian people worldwide,now and forever without any health problem. Only in UK live many millions of them.
But with birds and other animals there is a difference.
Other animals are vegetarian, so they mustn't eat meat like irns,pigeons,canary and other animals must eat meat such dogs,cats,lions,eagles and so.

donna, all vegetables need to clean enough before eat to ensure that are microbiological clean.
generally 6 to 7 washes with water are ok for safe vegetables, maybe with a middle soap . I clean all vegetables with water about 4 times,and the fruits with water and soap.

but alana, parrots dont kill mice,rats,snakes,etc,they eat fruits,vegetables and seeds and they are very healthy too.

for what reason most of you give meat, bones to your birds?
birds dont ask it for you, you have learnt it

because they enjoy it! My fids attack a piece of chicken with the same relish as they do a grape.

everything we do is a learned behavior...

I think various seeds or pellets, fresh vegetables and fruits and a mix of multivitamins with amino acids and minerals in drink water a day per week is absolutelly enough for ringnecks.

Why a multivitamin in the water? They don't get that in the wild. If your feeding them a diet based on what they eat in the wild then they should never need all the vitamins.

maybe a beer and a cigar are nice for your parrot too, donna

No then they would want to borrow the car and money


Donna

if you sure that give to your bird (and the bird take)all the proper foods in right amounts you dont need vitamins and minerals.
i give it once a week for sure.
in a virgin nature a bird takes all he needs (Vitamins,minerals,amino acids) when matches a loot of foods, like sprouts, seeds, flowers, wood, little stones, sand,soil etc.
in towns or poor nature it is usual the birds avitaminosis.

actually, if your feeding your birds correctly, they don't need that extra vitamin, as they usually get most of their moisture in their foods.

this is when the home-made diet comes in. Lots of fruits and veggies, some seeds and nuts, and greens too. Beans and rice.
I think I posted my recipie on here somewhere, just add more seeds for the ringnecks.

just add more seeds for the ringnecks.

What's the reason for increasing the amount of seeds for an IRN relative to a diet for other birds?

Jim

its actually decreasing the amount of seeds for eclectus, which is the base of my food.. an ekkie diet, needs more fiber than other birds...

and its a lot harder to put more in than to take it out!

i disagree as well

my bird gets a chicken bone whenever we eat chicken. they eat the marrow- try it!

he's not vegetarian but omnivorous. like most wild birds are.

oh and i have to say, pellets aren't natural foods for birds!!! i feed pellets as part of mine's diet.

i mostly feed a legume and wholegrain diet and fruit and veg. and occasional animal products.

There's nothing inherently wrong with giving chicken to your birds. It's one of many ways to provide them with the 2-3 grams per day of protein they require. In fact, chicken is a dietarily complete protein while most vegetables, legumes, nuts and seeds are not. It supplies all of the amino acids that can't be otherwise synthesized in the cells. An IRN's digestive system may not extract the protein from meats as effieciently as it does from from some other foods but that's hardly saying that it's not OK for them to eat it.

Jim

i never said parrots kill rats etc i said eagles hawks so on. cookie only gets the occasional chicken or fish as i was told to give him by the vet, he also has fresh fruit and vege. i dont eat meat only fish and chicken as i dont like the taste but if the vet told me to give him steak i would just because you're vegan doesnt mean you're bird has to have the same diet i feed cookie whats best for him not whatever i'm eating

my vet is against meat feeding to my ringneck, he told me to give him only egg from animal products, and the breeder i took my bird also is against, and both of them arent vegetarians

It's one of many ways to provide them with the 2-3 grams per day of protein they require

who are the other many ways Jim?

An IRN's digestive system may not extract the protein from meats as effieciently as it does from from some other foods

because meat isnt a natural food for parrots.
The dogs or eagles per example digestive system is the right to do this.

A few things other than 8 grams of chicken that contain 2-3 grams of protein:

15 grams of soybeans
10 grams of salmon
100 grams of sweet potatoes
125 grams of broccoli
12 grams of peanuts
12 grams of pumpkin seeds
450 grams of grapes

and - my method for my birds - 20 grams of Harrison's pellets.

Almost all foods contain at least a small level of protein. Fruits and vegetables, although excellent sources of vitamins, are lower in protein compared to meats, beans and nuts. An IRN fed only fruits and vegetables would have to consume it's entire body weight every day to get the protein it needs.

Also, I think the concept of what's "natural" for birds has no relevance. It's not natural for parrots to live in captivity at all.

Jim

i think we have a very interesting discussion here.
thanks to all

i agree with you Jim

I think the concept of what's "natural" for birds has no relevance. It's not natural for parrots to live in captivity at all.

.

i shall continue to dont give to my birds animal food except egg,because i havent a real reason to do this.
As you be seen from Jims nice table there are many ways and even more for a vegetarian bird to take the proper amount of protein.

If meat consuption was imperatived,i would give meat to my birds. But it isnt. i keep my parrots at captivity but as i can i try to follow behaviors and practices friendly to my birds nature.

but as i can i try to follow behaviors and practices friendly to my birds nature.

this must be a must for all us i think

I am affraid that over many parts of the world.. and still in modern and technological countries... you have women eating their placenta after birth. When there is no physical need... nor mental need to do so. We are a race who have increased our lifetime in double in many parts of the world in mere recent history.

That does not make them cannibalistic, nor strange.. it was natural to facilitate that behaviour in the past when it was actually of benfit to do so, such is the current practice in many parts of the world where modern medical needs just dont exist... where african women for example in small tribal situations.. eat dirt. Yes... dirt. For the mineral supplement. How did this behaviour happen... learnt behaviour passed on by elders as somewhere along the line... someone found out.. they were healthier and more likely to survive a traumatic event like child birth by doing so. To do so in our madern way of life.. in a situation where you need not do such things.. is choice.

Nature as nature intended is void in our way of life. It has been since we invented the wheel... petroleum... vitamins... blah blah... the same also occurs when you take a species out of its natural habitat... for generation upon generation deprive it and its decendants of its natural habitat and sustenance... then declare what is morally acceptable to feed it.

People feed their dogs cooked vegatables and rice with their daily food. The average cat is actually highly intollerable (teeth and diet wise) to fish... A dog is not a true omnivor. Yet can quite easily be one... with absolutely no harm to the animal.

You find a balance... a moral compas if you wish.. as to how you carry about your life.. trying to enjoy it as much as possible.. without depriving someone else their pleasure.

I have treated my birds the same way... I was orriginally quite against feeding my pets meat or such... but the fact was.. they were curious as to what I ate. They sneak things in.. they learn that some things taste horrible.. and others quite nice.

I refuse to feed them things I know are bad.. but those that are quite up to the birds opinion I leave it just as that.. their opinion. Who am I to deprive a simple joy from a creatures life of which knows.. nor ever will know any different. Wild... wtf is wild to even a breeder... who really is wild in nature... but would surely pass away in a wild environment without ready supply of food etc. Only the lucky few survive escape.

It isnt natural.. infact possibly just as bad to feed your pet mashed potato.. or other cooked elements as this in its very nature.. changes the chemical and digestive nature of the product. How many people refuse to feed them animal product.. yet feed them cooked veg products? Just curious..

I will always base my pets diet as to what they just cant have.. and what they like.. even if they gain no nutritional benefits at all... they just enjoy it. And they have every nutritional supplement they need on hand. On another note... what a creature gets in nature can quite often just be enough to survive and breed... not thrive as they should.

All you can do with your pet is to treat it the way it needs to be treated... and that is loved. If you arent harming them physically or mentally.. you are doing nothing wrong. If you dont wish to feed them products that officially dont hurt them... dont feed them that product. If you wish to deprive your pet from flight by clipping it... do so.

If your bird is happy... healthy... and showing it. Keep doing what you are doing as you are doing enough. Now just love your pet and enjoy everything he/she/they have to provide... a better quality of life than you may otherwise have.

Fah, that was beautiful. Could not have said it better.

i think there is lobbies here,Americans and australians are trust with wooden thoughts

I’m not an expert on bird diets, but I am very familiar with the proper diet for many reptiles, especially Iguanas. Their natural diet, despite being mostly herbivore, dose occasionally include carrion, according to some that have observed them eating the odd dead fish when near water. Like most reptiles, they are opportunistic feeders. In captivity, however, all experts agree that their diet should be totally free of all animal protein. Iguanas that are feed even small amounts of meat, even at an early age, have been known to suffer liver and kidney damage. I know that a parrot isn’t a Iguana, but personally I feel that giving any animal something that it would never eat in the wild as part of it’s regular diet, is just not healthy. As for things like cows milk, well, come on, face it, you might like it, you may have imprinted on it as a baby, but just about every diet expert, except the United Dairy Council and the USDA agree that it’s really not good for you. And with meat, the fact that the average strict vegetarian lives an average of seven years longer than those on a meat based diet should say something. In humans meat has been linked to everything from cancer to obesity. Just because your bird likes it certainly isn’t a good enough of a reason to give it to him! If protein is the excuse, just ask a vegetarian about the great meat vs. Vegetable protein myth.

BigChicken wrote:I know that a parrot isn’t a Iguana, but personally I feel that giving any animal something that it would never eat in the wild as part of it’s regular diet, is just not healthy.

Are you suggesting that things like corn, peaches, tomatoes and sweet potatoes should not be part of an IRN's diet? Those are all things they would never eat in the wild as they do not occur in the IRN's native habitat.

Jim

No, not at all. With Iguanas, no one knows exactly what they eat in the wild, but it's safe to say they are not eating pizza and french fries. In captivity you need to use a bit of comon sence. Just my opinion.

Nice thoughts big chicken, and at my opinion you have right.

jim the difference between appricot and peach, corm with rice or wheat and potatoes with tapioca are the same than the difference of corm and cows meat or chicken bone?

In nature parrots eat fruits, seeds and vegetables.
It doesnt matter what fruit is. All of them have similar composition.
They can digest starch, and it doesnt matter if is from potato or corn or rice. But meat and bones have extremely different compotition than the food that eats a vegetarian bird like parrot.
these birds dont know what is animal proteins, lactose or collagene, neather their stomach too.

nil wrote:jim the difference between appricot and peach, corm with rice or wheat and potatoes with tapioca are the same than the difference of corm and cows meat or chicken bone?

Easy there, tiger. I don't recall implying anything remotely like that. I was trying to get clarification on what BigChicken meant by "would never eat in the wild". In fact, if you go back and re-read a previous post of mine on this thread you will find that I acknowledge that IRN's do not digest chicken as well as they do other foods but stop well short of saying that chicken is inherently bad for them.

By the way, I've never fed my birds chicken and have no plans to do so. It's still a good discussion.

Jim

Driving home today I gave some more thought to this discussion. I was thinking back several years ago, I was involved with the Pittsburgh Herpetological Society and we where doing species samples in a local stream. At the time, there was quite an uproar in the press about several reptiles and amphibians that where showing up in the wild with strange mutations. In my personal (amateur) research I found that amphibians, reptiles, and birds where the three types of creatures that scientists watch for when determining the health of the environment. Some animals are just more tolerant to toxins than others. Humans can eat many things that are very toxic to other animals, such as caffeine, onions, alcohol, some herbs and spices, and so on, so I guess I think it's just a good idea to avoid something that is toxic even to us in all but moderate amounts, such as meat and dairy. If you are shaking your head right now thinking "meat and dairy are toxic" you need to do more research (but that is really another subject)! When we are feeding an animal that is so sensitive to toxins, such as a parrot, it just seems to be much safer to avoid such foods. I have found that what you don't feed an animal, is sometimes more important than what you do feed them.
O.K. I know that there are some things that other animals eat, maybe even some things that IRN,s eat that may be toxic to us, but I would bet that there aren't many.

You raise a very good point that bears repeating. Virtually everything - from chicken to organically grown carrots to stream water in Pittsburgh - is toxic to all species at some level. Take Vitamin A precursors - which are highly concentrated in carrots and sweet potatoes - for example. They have been correlated with low egg production and decreased hatch rates in parrots when fed at levels greater than 10,000 IU/kg. I don't think any responsible bird owner with a modicum of knowledge would think that chicken should be fed as anything more than one of many components of a balanced diet.

And please don't tell me I need to do more research. I spend far more time than I should on this stuff as it is.

Jim

I guess I really DID bite the bullet, huh?

well, I'm off to research this 'meat and dairy is toxic' theory, I'll be back in a few hours on my findings...

*cue superman music*

well, I don't think I have to research that very far...

everything about milk being toxic is by vegan groups. HARD CORE vegan groups. I only found things about meat being toxic by the same types of groups; hard core vegans, animal rights activists.

Other than e. coli and other bacteria (I can quote one page that is BUNK; that theres pee in steaks? wtf?!) that, if a meat product is cooked thoroughly enough, are killed...

Who's right and who's wrong? That's the least of our worries. What's important is that your bird does well on what he is being fed and does well both physically and mentally. So many health issues and behavioral problems stem from inadequate or improper foods.

Vitamin A deficiency is the number one problem in birds and is quickly followed by calcium deficiency as number two. Both very serious conditions, but both are easily remedied with something as simple as a carrot or dark leafy green, such as kale.

Maintaining a healthy bird is not difficult or time consuming if you know how to do it right and make it easy for yourself, and the possibilities are endless if you are willing to try different things.




Donna