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Ben, this youngster looks like a rather typical turquoiseblue to me, with green coming through on the wing coverts first. The parblues we have in our opaline line that produces a saddle starts with green on the back and none on the wings, pretty much the reverse of what you have in that picture. After the 3 month moult the saddle is very clear, still with blue wings, and at the 15 month moult it starts spreading. The final mature result looks like a normal turquoise type parblue, with the main difference being in the psittacin distribution and progression in young birds.

Hope I'm not intruding, but since this was a discussion of saddle in parblues I had a question of my turquoise grey. Is this a saddle and will he eventually lose it it. He is 9 months old.

Johan S wrote:Ben, this youngster looks like a rather typical turquoiseblue to me, with green coming through on the wing coverts first.

Yeah but this youngster shows a lot of "turq" in the wings. Very unusual for a hetereozyguos parblue. Isn't it?
BTW: i had never a parblue bird which is showing yellow in the tail. Very strange. So could it be an emerald derivative??? Color of neckring could fit. And remember Willy's patched emeralds.

Ben, I'm of the opinion that the parblue expression is extremely sensitive to the hormonal level present during that short time window while feathers are growing. I have seen different expressions of parblue in siblings of the same age (enter your dominant chick hypothesis here) with the same mutant gene inherited from a single heterozygous parent.

Melissa, yes, that type of parblue could go through as a 'saddle' type. And yes, it will start spreading out with the next moult. After the 27 month moult, it will be completely lost.

This is the type of parblue that I believe combines with harlequin to give the saddlebacks, but the fact that no non-pied saddle type parblues (i.e. like Melissa's picture) have been bred is indeed very perplexing and a tough nut to crack. But I have full confidence in Chris et al to solve this mystery soon.

Hi
I am a lover of turquoise and have bred quite a few over the years. I was quite amazed the first time I saw a yellow tail in the nest and it was pure. However, it only extended for a few centimeters at the end of the tail feathers. That bird is now a 1 year old and there is little evidence of the yellow now. I am hoping it might return at least a bit in the coming molt
Kind regards
Mike

Hi Ben,

is there any visible yellow on the under wing side?

Ring0Neck wrote:I looked but no feathers popped up yet in that area, in a couple of days.

Thx. Keep us informed.

Ring0Neck wrote:Mike,

to confuse things further

I'm not up to speed on the whole mutations thing.
This morning when our 15 month old turquoise blue was preening I noticed he has had some similar yellow that fades to a greyish colour feathers under his wings.
As I've never noticed them before I was freaking out about them, thinking he has some kind of disease or something! He is most of the way through a big moult atm.

Ben, those pics are fantastic. They are zoomed in so much, you can almost see the psittacin granules already.

Speaking of, I've heard from a friend that they get rather nice photos at a microscopic level with their camera phones (was an iPhone) and a lens from a lazer pointer. Apparently there are some tutorials on the web to do it. If anybody without access to a microscope feels like looking into it, go for it.

Ring0Neck wrote:Peter has posted this pic in the Emerald thread.

Thanks Johan
But i really wanted your opinion and Peter's but no reply from him
Is Peter's bird an Opaline?

Cheers

Ben, yes, that a "df" turquoise opaline by my estimate. I've seen the bird in the flesh and it is showing a lot of psittacin already, more so than any turquoiseblue opaline I've seen in the past. Breeding results in future will confirm. Beautiful little thing.

Hi Ben
It is a TurquoiseBlue Violet Cleartail and I still have it to see what happens as it gets older. In the nest the first 20% of the tail was bright yellow, by the time it fledged the yellow had faded but was still faintly there on each tail feather. At 1 year old now, the yellow is still there but very faint. Also, there are yellow signs all over the belly and heavy signs of it on the back as green and on the head as yellow.
I kept a full sister from the previous season, same phenotype but she showed absolutely no sign of yellow anywhere until the juvenile molt. At 2 years old now she has quite bright yellow areas on her head and yellow spots (not round spots) all over her belly. Her back is about the same as the 1 year old cock.
I have no idea of what it means, except that turquoise produces surprisingly variable results amongst siblings. Is it he impact of minor modifying genes?
Kind regards
Mike

Hi Mike,

Is it he impact of minor modifying genes?

I think its a mutation the male is split for.

Hi Ben
The parents of the 2 birds I was talking about are a Violet Blue Cleartail hen and a TurquoiseBlue split cleartail cock from Bob Willis's origional blood line. I know turquoise is incredibly variable in its early expression but this pair do go to extremes, from nothing visible at all in the nest, or at fledging, to another chick that was absolutely covered in psittacin very early.
The parents do also produce more intermediate chicks but I kept one each from the last 2 years at either end of the spectrum just to see what happened over time. The bird with the high level early expression, and a yellow end to ts tail in the nest, does still have somewhat more psittacin than the hen that showed none in the nest but not so much now she is 2 and he is 1.
Interestingly, it is easy to see psittacin in the white underparts of the cleartails, I assume it is there in non tail birds but probably not so easy to see.
Ben, what I was speculating about was could this variability in expression of yellow pigment actually have a genetic source by way of minor modifying genes or is it just in the nature of the turquoise gene. Having said that, is it possible that indigo and sapphire and even other par blue alleles may owe their existence to collections of modifier genes, rather than to being separate mutations themselves as such?
I think i will put the 2 year old hen back to the father next year to see if that reveals anything else. If nothing else I may get a DF Turquoise Cleartail with 2 of the odd turquoise genes together. What do you think?
Kind regards
Mike

Hi Mike,

I was speculating about was could this variability in expression of yellow pigment actually have a genetic source by way of minor modifying genes or is it just in the nature of the turquoise gene. Having said that, is it possible that indigo and sapphire and even other par blue alleles may owe their existence to collections of modifier genes, rather than to being separate mutations themselves as such?

Very interesting thoughts and i agree about MMGs and how little we know about them.
I hope we're going to discuss Parblues in detail in a new thread.
Recio started a couple of years ago and i think it should be done again.

Mikesringnecks wrote:Having said that, is it possible that indigo and sapphire and even other par blue alleles may owe their existence to collections of modifier genes, rather than to being separate mutations themselves as such?

Mike, in all the discussions out there about turquoise and indigo being different alleles, nobody has ever been able to convince me conclusively that the above isn't a possible explanation for the variability that we see; variability that exists even in adult birds. So yes, I think it is very possible.

Seen as were back on the subject of saddles , I said once my new web site was finished id tell the form, it has now been made live , sorry about the larst 18months i was trying to have it built professionly, i simply went to the wrong guy.There was a question about Opaline Harlequins raised ,theres 8 or 9 photoes of Opaline Harlequins on my New Mutations page , including Turquoise Opaline Harlequin ,which most beleive what a Saddleback is ?
All the photoes of our Saddlebacks there brothers and sisters [ normals ].
I will point out again theres no Opaline or Turquoise in our birds , Theres also no saddle on our birds when you look at the 12 month old birds , the names simply the wrong name ,Theres also as many comparision pics that i could think off + my thoughts.
Simply Google mcw-indianringnecks,, As i said earlier yous do have my permission to use any of my photoes on my web site for discussion on this site ...
Regards
Chris