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Molossus hi

I'm thinking that there are Emeralds and Emerald blue out there, for Babu and others the breed 4 emeralds from 4 chicks it may be an emerald green , no blue gene therefore only Emerald babies, then there are the others Emerald bred with blue so I would call these Emerald split blue ,same as green split blue ,and when paired up with a blue offspring are Emeralds and Blues ,I have 2 babies from a Emerald and a blue pairing and the results are 1 Emerald and 1 blue, a friend of mine has similar results 4 chicks 2 blue and 2 Emerald grey,
Just my assumption and opinion , would be interesting what others have to say

Regards Gratz

Molossus, my breedings so far show roughly 50/50 EmeraldBlues and Blues from EmeraldBlue x Blue. I have heard of breeders only breeding EmeraldBlues however.

Hi Molossus
My experience this season with an EmeraldTurquoise Cleartail hen and a Violet Cobalt (Dark Blue) Cleartail cock was 3 emeralds in the first clutch of 3 and 2 emeralds, a turquoise and what currently looks like a violet in the second clutch of 4.
I was expecting all the chicks to be either emerald or turquoise. Emerald cleartails are very easy to detect early so I am confident about 5 of them. The turquoise is a Violet TurquoiseBlue Cleartail and has patches of green on the wings and the beginnings of a white tail and belly (not emerald yellow). The youngest chick so far looks like a simple Violet Blue Cleartail but has a fair bit of feathering up yet to go.
I have had turquoise chicks before that showed no sign of green or yellow patching until the end of the juvenile moult so I'm not yet nearly ready to advise that the last chick is not turquoise. However it is clear in my case that only 5 out of 7 chicks were emeralds.
I have a second pair of an EmeraldBlue split cleartail hen and a Cobalt Cleartail cock. They also produced 7 chicks in 2 clutches of which 4 were emerald and 3 were not.
Kind regards
Mike

Mikesringnecks wrote:Hi Molossus
My experience this season with an EmeraldTurquoise Cleartail hen and a Violet Cobalt (Dark Blue) Cleartail cock was 3 emeralds in the first clutch of 3 and 2 emeralds, a turquoise and what currently looks like a violet in the second clutch of 4.
I was expecting all the chicks to be either emerald or turquoise. Emerald cleartails are very easy to detect early so I am confident about 5 of them. The turquoise is a Violet TurquoiseBlue Cleartail and has patches of green on the wings and the beginnings of a white tail and belly (not emerald yellow).

Hi Mike, the underlined is an assumption that was made very early about the emerald mutation, in that it is an allele of the blue locus and a parblue mutation. However, it was assumed as such but never properly tested with green series or turquoise/indigo mutation combinations. Or at least not properly reported on. If you have bred a homozygous blue bird (the violet blue cleartail), then we have sufficient proof that the emerald mutation is non-allelic to blue (and probably incomplete dominant). Since the Violet TurquoiseBlue Cleartail is already showing enough psittacin to be identified as a parblue, I'd say this is indeed the turquoise morphotype and not indigo. So the little one should show some psittacin in it's juvenile moult, or at least some in it's 3 month moult. Now we just need to be patient and wait for that little one to feather out properly. Thanks for sharing your results!

If incomplete dominant inheritance is indeed the case, we can revisit Willy's patchy emerald mystery as well and hopefully solve that too.

Johan S wrote:

Mikesringnecks wrote:Hi Molossus
My experience this season with an EmeraldTurquoise Cleartail hen and a Violet Cobalt (Dark Blue) Cleartail cock was 3 emeralds in the first clutch of 3 and 2 emeralds, a turquoise and what currently looks like a violet in the second clutch of 4.
I was expecting all the chicks to be either emerald or turquoise. Emerald cleartails are very easy to detect early so I am confident about 5 of them. The turquoise is a Violet TurquoiseBlue Cleartail and has patches of green on the wings and the beginnings of a white tail and belly (not emerald yellow).

Hi Mike, the underlined is an assumption that was made very early about the emerald mutation, in that it is an allele of the blue locus and a parblue mutation. However, it was assumed as such but never properly tested with green series or turquoise/indigo mutation combinations. Or at least not properly reported on. If you have bred a homozygous blue bird (the violet blue cleartail), then we have sufficient proof that the emerald mutation is non-allelic to blue (and probably incomplete dominant). Since the Violet TurquoiseBlue Cleartail is already showing enough psittacin to be identified as a parblue, I'd say this is indeed the turquoise morphotype and not indigo. So the little one should show some psittacin in it's juvenile moult, or at least some in it's 3 month moult. Now we just need to be patient and wait for that little one to feather out properly. Thanks for sharing your results!

If incomplete dominant inheritance is indeed the case, we can revisit Willy's patchy emerald mystery as well and hopefully solve that too.

Hi Johan;

Good analysis. You can also add that the mother is :
1. SF Emerald ... since there are also non emerald chicks.
2. Heterozygous Turquoise (TurquoiseBlue). Otherwise every chick should have been also Turquoise. So for the mother it is : SF Emerald TurquoiseBlue Cleartail hen.

Regards

Recio

Hi everybody,

Back to Emerald inheritance. As Molosus and Willy say there are reports of apparent SF Emeralds producing almost 100% Emerald offspring or at least higher numbers than the expected 50%. Which could be the underlying mechanism? Any idea? Food for thougth for this weekend.

Recio

Food for thougth: I will try to develop Gratz post.

The first Emerald wild caugth bird produced 100% emerald offspring according to Babu's report. If Emerald is an incomplete dominant mutation it would be really strange that the first wild Emerald is a DF Emerald. It would also have been very strange if the first wild Emerald was also homozygous blue. So we should conclude that this first emerald producing 100% emerald offspring was a green series SF Emerald.

Thinking that this bird was a parblue it was bred to blues, producing green/blues and blue series emerald. We have conclusive reports from Willy telling us that those blue series Emerald have never produced green offspring and that they produced roughly 50% emerald offspring. So we should conclude that Emeralds inherit as a classical incomplete dominant mutation in the blue series.

Are blue and green series emeralds phenotypically similar? This could be the case if emerald was a structural mutation producing a structural yellow in the same wavelength that the ligth reflected by the yellow psittacin(s). It would be great to have a pic to comapre, side by side, two Emerald birds of the same sex and age, one of them producing 100% emerald offspring (possible green series emerald) and another producing 50% emerald offspring (possible blue series emerald).

If the apparent inheritance depends on the presence/abscence of psittacin, it would mean that probably the presence of a phenotypic Emerald depends of 2 different genes: one related to psittacin production and another related to feather structure. Whether these genes interact at the genomic level or at peripheral level (Ex: deposition of psittacins in the cortex could depend on feather structure) ... time will tell us.

This is a global idea, easy to test whenever the first (for sure) Emerald green series will be bred.

Regards
Recio

Back to Emerald inheritance. As Molosus and Willy say there are reports of apparent SF Emeralds producing almost 100% Emerald offspring or at least higher numbers than the expected 50%. Which could be the underlying mechanism? Any idea? Food for thougth for this weekend.

These 'emeralds' which are producing 100% 'emerald' chicks are IMO df Emeralds which the owners of cannot distinguish from an EmeraldBlue. The df Emerald that Deon was sent by Chris was bred by Phil Highland according to him and he could not tell either. I explained to him that it is only in the flights and tail that a difference can be detected according to Chris who has also bred df Emerald. The flights of an EmeraldBlue are typical of the colour of the flights of a TurquoiseBlue or an IndigoBlue. The flights of a df Emerald are more body colour ie: green. So unless you are looking for it you would miss it.

As far as the origin as described by Babu, I remain convinced that it was a homozygous parblue Emerald. In any event Mike still has a wait to see if that last Violet CHCT patches up. If it doesn't I will have to change my tune I guess.

Chris' df Emerald with green flights and tail

Hi,

To get a DF Emerald you need to pair up 2 SF Emeralds. As far as I know Chris is the only breeder that has done it and this is the way he got his DF Emeralds. All other breeders (correct me if I am wrong) have always put Emerald to Blue or Parblue in order to get more Emerald chicks as soon as possible for the market, so ... where could those supossed DF Emeralds come from? Did Phil really pair up two SF Emeralds to produce a DF bird or this is just a supossition because that bird produced 100% emerald offspring? Do you know of any dominant mutation detected in the wild, for the first time, as a DF bird?

The easiest way to get phenotypic Emeralds probably is to pair SF Emerald to green series birds ... but time will tell us.

I am looking for a model of interaction between 2 genes leading to an apparent overexpression of a final phenotype (emerald) which would be dependent of both genes. Probably SF Emerald to green does not produce 100% SF Emerald green but around 90-95%. We'll see ... but I feel we are in the rigth direction.

Could you Willy take a pic of one of your Emeralds (50% Emerald offspring) besides an Emerald known to produce 100% Emerald offspring?

Regards

Recio

the thing that puzzles me is the non df emeralds that produce 100% offspring ... are these co incidental??

Breeders in Oz are breeding EmeraldBlues together, and then selling off the df birds without realising what they have. The new owner just assumes he has an EmeraldBlue.

To get a DF Emerald you need to pair up 2 SF Emeralds. As far as I know Chris is the only breeder that has done it

Phil Highland did it and sent the bird to Chris who sent it on to Deon. Phil did not realise it was df. Chris having already bred one, spotted it is what I gather. Recio, I am sure that others have also bred them and that is why we are getting reports of 100% EmeraldBlue young.

Did Phil really pair up two SF Emeralds to produce a DF bird

Yes, he told me. Deon's UV pic comparison of df to hetero confirmed the extra psitticin.

Probably SF Emerald to green does not produce 100% SF Emerald green but around 90-95%.

Why would a heterozygous Emerald bird breed more than 50% hetero Emeralds? What mechanism would alter Mendelian genetics?

Could you Willy take a pic of one of your Emeralds (50% Emerald offspring) besides an Emerald known to produce 100% Emerald offspring?

I don't have access to a df Emerald. Phil is in Perth but has not bred another so far.

Recio, Willy, Johan, Ben and ......

I took some pics of Deon's sf and df emerald imported birds. I could tell by the naked eye that one was a sf and the other a df. I will ask Deon's permission to post the pics.

Tienie

Just for my curiosity , when we are talking about " double factor emerald blue" are we really talking about emerald green .? That is an emerald bird with no blue gene .?
Ps, my emerald hen was bred by Phillip Highland and it has green flights nothing like a turquoise flights and the babies are 1 blue and 1 emerald
Maybe luck is playing a part in the 100%offspring being emerald , would be good to know how many seasons these birds have bred,it would be like having a split cleartail with a visual cleartail and breeding 4 from 4 cleartails , it's not common but not impossible then the same pair next season produce 3 splits and only 1 visual
Or even better is Emerald like turquoise , single factor only appearing on some of the offspring and double factor appearing on all the offspring as now we have Emerald violet, Emerald cobalt, Emerald grey etc , so when we talk about Emerald are we talking about the affect on the appearance of the colour of the bird or the actual colour of the precious stone Emerald
Something to think about

Gratz

My way of thinking is that emerald is a structural mutation like dark and violet (incomplete dominant) and not like indigo and turquoise allele's of the blue locus. Referring to df emerald I meant df emerald blue. What puzzles me is why nobody can account for a sf and df emerald green.

Tienie

Tienie
Well said
Think about this, grey masking violet, do we also have Green masking Emerald ???


Gratz

Hi Gratz.

Green masking Emerald ???

Do you know anyone who has paired emerald x green?



** I found a breeder with a possible split emerald from J F which i'm trying to contact once i find his number.

Gratz wrote:Tienie
Well said
Think about this, grey masking violet, do we also have Green masking Emerald ???


Gratz

Gratz, you ask a good question, but I'd approach it slightly differently. We already know for sure that neither blue, nor combinations of blue with dark, violet and grey masks emerald. The only factor left is psittacin. So rather than testing the idea with green, I'd use an ino to only investigate emerald and psittacin. Perhaps a bit radical an approach.

I'd use an ino to only investigate emerald and psittacin...

Yea good idea Johan
Lutino will work on green and ino

Recio wrote:Food for thougth: I will try to develop Gratz post.

The first Emerald wild caugth bird produced 100% emerald offspring according to Babu's report. If Emerald is an incomplete dominant mutation it would be really strange that the first wild Emerald is a DF Emerald. It would also have been very strange if the first wild Emerald was also homozygous blue. So we should conclude that this first emerald producing 100% emerald offspring was a green series SF Emerald.

Thinking that this bird was a parblue it was bred to blues, producing green/blues and blue series emerald. We have conclusive reports from Willy telling us that those blue series Emerald have never produced green offspring and that they produced roughly 50% emerald offspring. So we should conclude that Emeralds inherit as a classical incomplete dominant mutation in the blue series.

Are blue and green series emeralds phenotypically similar? This could be the case if emerald was a structural mutation producing a structural yellow in the same wavelength that the ligth reflected by the yellow psittacin(s). It would be great to have a pic to comapre, side by side, two Emerald birds of the same sex and age, one of them producing 100% emerald offspring (possible green series emerald) and another producing 50% emerald offspring (possible blue series emerald).

If the apparent inheritance depends on the presence/abscence of psittacin, it would mean that probably the presence of a phenotypic Emerald depends of 2 different genes: one related to psittacin production and another related to feather structure. Whether these genes interact at the genomic level or at peripheral level (Ex: deposition of psittacins in the cortex could depend on feather structure) ... time will tell us.

This is a global idea, easy to test whenever the first (for sure) Emerald green series will be bred.

Regards
Recio

Hi Recio
Excuse my alternate view, but I would have thought it was in fact most likely that the first wild caught emerald was in fact a double factor bird. Surely, there would be no reason to catch it as a new mutation until it showed itself. In this regard, if emerald is a blue locus allele, it would not show up in the wild until a DF Emerald or an EmeraldBlue bird was fledged.
In a localized wild population in which an emerald gene was circulating, would it not be more much likely for emerald splits to pair up and breed than for an emerald split to find and pair up with another disparate rare mutation and reveal itself as an EmeraldBlue?
Kind regards
Mike

my emerald hen was bred by Phillip Highland and it has green flights nothing like a turquoise flights

I knew these would come in handy, they also make great wings for balsa wood air planes. Gratz, if the flights are green but you aren't breeding all Emeralds then we have a mystery

top EmeraldBlueTurquoiseBlue flash



top EmeraldBlueTurquoiseBlue flash



top EmeraldBlueTurquoiseBlue no flash

http://i1305.photobucket.com/albums/s54 ... 1383390474

Here she is
[URL=http://s1281.photobucket.com/user/ ... .jpg[/img][/url][URL=http://s1281.photobucket.com/user/ ... .jpg[/img][/url]

Mikesringnecks wrote:Hi Recio
Excuse my alternate view, but I would have thought it was in fact most likely that the first wild caught emerald was in fact a double factor bird. Surely, there would be no reason to catch it as a new mutation until it showed itself. In this regard, if emerald is a blue locus allele, it would not show up in the wild until a DF Emerald or an EmeraldBlue bird was fledged.
In a localized wild population in which an emerald gene was circulating, would it not be more much likely for emerald splits to pair up and breed than for an emerald split to find and pair up with another disparate rare mutation and reveal itself as an EmeraldBlue?
Kind regards
Mike

Hi Mike,

I would agree with your reasoning if Emerald was a parblue mutatiom (thus recessive) but I think that it is an incomplete dominant mutation. In this situation the first wild caugth Emerald bird must have been a SF Emerald Green series bird. The reasons have been developped above.

Regards

Recio

trabots wrote:Why would a heterozygous Emerald bird breed more than 50% hetero Emeralds? What mechanism would alter Mendelian genetics?

Hi Willy,

I have only developped the idea that the expression of a mutation (Emerald) could be different depending on the expression of other(s) gene(s) (blue/green gene controling psittacins). If you google "non mendelian inheritance" you will find some unexpected mechanisms of inheritance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-Mendelian_inheritance). Together with these mechanisms there are other "strange" mendelian inheritance patterns depending on genic interaction (digenism, trigenism, pseudodominance, activation of lethal genes, ...) which could account for unexpected breeding results, with higher than expected rates of Emerald offspring .

I agree with you that our reference frame must be the mendelian laws of inheritance, but whenever reality does not fit ... as Ben uses to say .... let's be open minded . So the first thing is to know if reality fits: do SF Emeralds in Green series produce more than the expected 50% Emerald offspring? .... but to properly answer this question we must first be sure that we are dealing with a Green series Emerald .... and probably, till now, we only have Lee background with the Emerald Alex.

Regards

Recio

Gratz, looks like you have a mystery bird. If it bred a Blue, you have possibly a SF Emerald /Blue not a SF Emerald Blue which logically mine would be if we are talking an incomplete dominant Emerald mutation. All of my straight Emeralds have the bluish flights. While we are on it, how about some other pics of your Emeralds, people, showing the flights?

Willy Good call
I agree sounds like I have an Emerald Green split blue

here is a pic of the babies,unfortunately they are still in the nest so i had to use a flash
[URL=http://s1281.photobucket.com/user/ ... .jpg[/img][/url]

Ben I agree..

Gratz- is it possible for you to take pics of your Emerald.....? hen with a Turqblue or Indigoblue after the season?

Hi Sheyd

Yes will do, I have a turquoise blue baby in another nest so when they are all self defendant I will place them all in a holding cage and take some pics

Ben ,
I know what you are saying , I sold a indigo blue to a friend of mine who also purchased an emerald from someone else and when the birds are both facing away from you ie you can see their back they do look very very similar , but front on the indigo has a shade of blue showing,ps I have seen some Emeralds that resemble par blue

Hope we sort this mystery out soon

Ben ,
here are some comparisons
Indigo chicks ,photo taken with flash
[URL=http://s1281.photobucket.com/user/ ... .jpg[/img][/url]
Emerald chick taken with flash
[URL=http://s1281.photobucket.com/user/ ... .jpg[/img][/url]
Emerald hen
[URL=http://s1281.photobucket.com/user/ ... .jpg[/img][/url]
Indigo hen
[URL=http://s1281.photobucket.com/user/ ... .jpg[/img][/url]
Indigo hen
[URL=http://s1281.photobucket.com/user/ ... .jpg[/img][/url]

What has changed to believe that Emerald is not a Parblue mutation?

Ben, no change for sure with me yet however in the meantime, with respect to Gratz' bird and assuming: We now have evidence of 3 phenotypes. Chris' DF Emerald, Gratz' bird and my birds. Gratz' bird is SF but is different to my SF Emerald. A Parblue has only 2 phenotypes with none visible in Green series. The only thing a 3rd phenotype can be is a Green series Autosomal Dominant either SF or DF. Gratz' bird fills the SF criteria (and it sure is green).

A Parblue has only 2 phenotypes with none visible in Green series.

Sorry, : When I say Green series I mean a wildtype Blue locus, both sides.

Ben, how do you reconcile the flights colour?

The green flights are actually bluish now? Gratz if you have a TurquoiseBlue how about a comparison?

Hi Willy

I have a turquoise blue hen the same age as my Emerald hen, if the turquoise hen is out of her nest box in the morning before I go to work I will take a photo of both birds so that we have a good comparison ie same camera , light etc

Gratz wrote:Hi Willy

I have a turquoise blue hen the same age as my Emerald hen, if the turquoise hen is out of her nest box in the morning before I go to work I will take a photo of both birds so that we have a good comparison ie same camera , light etc

the comparison should be done with both birds in together- too many variables otherwise imo.

Best I could do this morning
1st photo
Group shot with Emerald on one end and Turquoise blue on the other
2nd photo
Turquoise Blue and Emerald
3rd photo
Turquoise Blue Cleartail
4th photo
Young Turquoise Blue
[URL=http://s1281.photobucket.com/user/ ... .jpg[/img][/url]
[url=http://s1281.photobucket.com/user/ ... .jpg[/img][/url]
[URL=http://s1281.photobucket.com/user/ ... .jpg[/img][/url]
[url][/url]
[URL=http://s1281.photobucket.com/user/ ... .jpg[/img][/url]

Hi Sheyd

the comparison should be done with both birds in together- too many variables otherwise imo.

This comparison will be done with the young Turquoise Blue and the Young Emerald when they are placed in the holding cage with all this seasons young birds

Regards Gratz

Hi Ben

purchased the bird from a well known breeder (Phillip Highland)
as an Emerald split cleartail hen
Im not certain what the parents are but I think only one Emerald is involved

Cheers

Gratz, I know Phil and we have been to each others aviaries. Deon's df Emerald is Phil's bird via Chris. These latest pics agree with mine, the flights are those of a parblue. The green appearance of the flights was obviously a trick of the lighting etc. We are back with Mike's results, 7 chicks from a TurquoiseEmerald to Blue pairing resulting in no Blue or TurquoiseEmerald young. The odds of that happening are one over 2 to the 7th power or 1/128 or 0.78%. After one more season with the same I will bet my house on Emerald being a parblue. Hopefully someone else this season will back it up.

Willy,

Agreed.

the green appearance of the flights was obviously a trick of the lighting etc.

point i was trying to make, although it was a poor attempt i must say.

There is no trick
One photo was taken in the day time on a sunny day and the others taken this morning early with overcast conditions , surely you can see the difference between the emerald and the turquoise blue in the group photo 1st pic and the 2nd pic
The other photos are of turquoise blue

Not implying trickery by you Gratz, the camera angle does the tricks. Any change in the incidence angle of a blueish feather as in a Parblue will alter the blue tones, decreasing them makes the feather greener looking. In the 1st image the TurquoiseBlue's flights are at 90 degrees to your camera whereas the flights of the EmeraldBlue are at a different angle simply because it is farther away.The close-ups of the flights match mine although I see one is a CHCT. Your bird is also probably a sibling of Deon's df Emerald, both having been bred by Phil.

Willy
Point taken
I understand what you are saying
Ps I rushed in those pics before I went to work and the Emerald wouldn't let me take a good close up,
When time allows I will try to take better shots of the birds at the same angle, ps the point I was trying to make is that the flights on the Emerald are green compared to the flights on the turquoise blue,

Cheers

Hi Gratz, not too sure yet about your perceptions of green and blue. This is your last image of your EmeraldBlue which I see as being the same as mine. Taken straight on or at 90 degrees. In my eyes definitely bluer than green.

Best I could do this morning
1st photo
Group shot with Emerald on one end and Turquoise blue on the other
2nd photo
Turquoise Blue and Emerald
3rd photo
Turquoise Blue Cleartail
4th photo
Young Turquoise Blue

Willy
that is the young turquoise blue

Hi Ben

yes I know what you are saying
I guess the photo where the bird is bright green is like taking a pic with a giant flash, the birds were in the sunlight

Cheers
Gratz

trabots wrote:Hi Gratz, not too sure yet about your perceptions of green and blue. This is your last image of your EmeraldBlue which I see as being the same as mine. Taken straight on or at 90 degrees. In my eyes definitely bluer than green.

According to his numbering, that bird is actually a young turquoise blue.