IndianRingNeck.com

All photo's of my birds are on this link please comment with your thoughts thank you

http://s1261.photobucket.com/albums/ii581/justin76253/

Number 1 is meant to be a Indigo blue hen
Number 2 is meant to be a Pastel Grey split Butter Cup
Number 3 Not Sure
Number 4 Blue lacewing
Number 5 Young Violet Cock
Number 6&7 Not Sure Parents were Skyblue Lacewing Cock and a blue Hen

Thanks for looking

Hi Justin

I am not an expert but this is what I think of your birds visual colours. You will bot be able to see any splits, they will only show in your offspring if you get the correct pairings.

1) Turquoise blue pallid aka rainbow lacewing
2) Grey turquoise blue aka pastel grey
3) Grey green
4) Blue
5) Cobalt or perhaps violet blue (I am not very familiar with these colours as I battle to find them in my area, so if someone else can pitch in with that one)
6) Blue or cinnamon blue (the picture is a little misty so I can't see 100%)
7) Blue pallid aka blue lacewing

Just my thoughts on the birds. Anyone more experienced may be able to help more than me.

Regards
Carmen

Carmen, I don't think you need any help. It seems as if you've got it right. I agree with most choices.

1) definitely agree with this bird being a pallid (it might be an indigo pallid)
2) Interesting bird! In many circles this would go through as a grey indigo, but the rose in the neck ring makes it a very lightly coloured turquoise. Recio might find this bird interesting.
5) cobalt
6) blue

I'm rather stubborn about calling a cobalt look-alike a violet. Although I am fully aware of a strain of violet that appears mostly cobalt in SF, and violet when DF.

Thanks Johan

I have only ever seen 3 cobalts in my life and at a quick glance, I have never had a chance to look properly at them. As to violets- I have never had the pleasure of seeing 1 in real life. I would love to get a pair one day when I can afford them.

A small aside- has anyone else been having problems logging in today? I am having to try 3 or 4 times before I am successful.

Thank you Carmen & Johan for your thoughts much appreciated
as far as logging in i leave mine logged in.

Young Double Factor Violet on left and Single Factor on right







Heres a young Cobalt. What they call European Cobalt in Australia.

Rod what do you think mine looks more like? I live in Australia aswell
is a European Cobalt different to a normal cobalt? or do they just call then Cobalt and not (European)
thank you

Most times are just called Cobalt as they are the most common. The Aust Cobalts or Deep Blues are being sold by a few breeders and seem to be a bit dearer. If you breed to European Cobalts you can get a Mauve which is 2 dark factors and this doesnt happen is the Aust Cobalts I believe.

Yours looks like a Violet Blue. Its always hard to tell from photos because they all are very simliar. What is yours meant to be? What were the parents of it?

Thanks Rod yes I was told it was a Violet Blue Cock DNA Parents were blue cock and violet hen.

Thank you

I would say that is right. What state are you in? Im in NSW.

Yes Im in NSW as well

Hi Rod/Justin,

as I've mentioned, I'm a bit stubborn regarding the violet mutation. Now, I agree fully that the pictures Rod have shown is indeed one of a variety of strains of violet, but I have found (actually still do) it cumbersome to explain to breeders investigating the potential of violet that the bird 'will' give violet offspring in the double factor (proving it is violet). Here is a picture of a hen with another strain of violet. Note that this is a single factored bird.



Here is a similar bird in ADM pied. Again, a SF violet, not DF.



Like I say, you'll know a violet bird when you see one. And when in doubt and if it does look like a cobalt when SF violet, it remains the decision of the buyer, I suppose, whether the bird is 'violet enough'. I'm a firm believer in the innocence of youth. To me, the test on the quality of a bird/mutation is to take a five year old and to ask them what they see. Regarding the violet mutation, the hypothetical child should say, 'Look mom/dad, thats a purple bird!'. And a 'WOW!' would also be very nice.

And please everyone, no offense intended at all! I've had some breeders very upset with me and my opinion regarding this very topic. I'm not saying you're birds aren't violet. I fully recognise that more than one strain exists.

@ Madas, you might enjoy the blue cock in the first picture. Unfortunately, that hen nearly killed him some weeks ago. The cock is now with a violet daughter of that hen.

And just to illustrate how difficult it can be with photos, light and finally colour representation on an LCD screen, please give me your thoughts on this hen. What mutation do you all reckon this is?

Is it not the same violet hen as in your first picture?

I had the same problem when trying to capture my cinn clearhead fallow. in some pics he looked green clearhead, in others he looked grey green clearhead and I could never get it quite right no matter what I did. Cameras can be deceiving.

I would say violet by looking at the rump and tail

Thanks
Lushen

McmillanBirds wrote:Is it not the same violet hen as in your first picture?

Nope. Pictures taken on the same day. Note the difference in the dimension of the wire mesh.

molossus wrote:Cobalt.

Reason?

The violet looking tail.

Recio

Wow....Just breahtaking!
I am not even going to attempt colorations=D
I am however absolutly in love with your baby #5's color...Is that color avaiable here in the US? or is it just out of EU and AU? I know sometimes different color mutations are only in certain countrys.is this true for those beautiful blues/purples?!

Shonna

Johan S wrote: @ Madas, you might enjoy the blue cock in the first picture. Unfortunately, that hen nearly killed him some weeks ago. The cock is now with a violet daughter of that hen.

Hi Johan,

yep, nice dom. edged blue male. Congratulations real beauty. And combined with the outstanding violetblue (very dark one; great color) a very valuable breeding pair.
Do you have a backview and frontview pic of the rec. pied violetblue??? I can't believe it's only "violetblue". To much grey on breast and neck. Sure it's not a violet-cobalt???

madas

Recio wrote:The violet looking tail.

Recio

Hi Recio,

was it meant on: "Cobalt -> Reason?" ??? Are you joking???

madas

Hi Madas,

the bird was purchased as violet pied, and I'm pretty sure that it isn't violet cobalt. Unfortunately, I don't have pictures from the front, but here are some more.

A back view (partner of the original pied):


The two together. The slight difference in colour is due to the light.


As a side note to the original discussion regarding violets, notice the large variation of piedness. One bird strongly pied on the flights, the other shows more piedness on the wing coverts. The people 'in the know' tend to focus on the effect that the (ADM) pied mutation has on psittacin, but to me it seems as if both psittacin and melanin is effected. To my eyes, the blue ADM pieds seem a shade darker blue than the normal blue as well, and the cobalt seems to be going a shade darker - towards mauve. That is why I suspect that melanin is also effected. Another observation: With these pieds, one often notices regions in the flights (when not completely stripped of melanin, and towards the tips of the feathers) that are extremely dark (almost black). I'm not sure what causes this. The better minds, like yourself and Recio, might have some thoughts.

Johan S wrote:As a side note to the original discussion regarding violets, notice the large variation of piedness. One bird strongly pied on the flights, the other shows more piedness on the wing coverts. The people 'in the know' tend to focus on the effect that the (ADM) pied mutation has on psittacin, but to me it seems as if both psittacin and melanin is effected. To my eyes, the blue ADM pieds seem a shade darker blue than the normal blue as well, and the cobalt seems to be going a shade darker - towards mauve. That is why I suspect that melanin is also effected. Another observation: With these pieds, one often notices regions in the flights (when not completely stripped of melanin, and towards the tips of the feathers) that are extremely dark (almost black). I'm not sure what causes this. The better minds, like yourself and Recio, might have some thoughts.

Hi Johan,

yes i know that the rec. pieds look resp. gets darker then compared to normal birds. But your birds must have gone very dark (lucky man).
Attached are some examples of german rec. pieds (and some normals):

rec. pied violetgreen:



rec. pied violetblue:


rec. pied violetblue(cobalt???):



violetgreen:


cobalt:

Unfortunately, not my birds. Fortunately, my dads. I will try and find some pictures of violet cobalt pieds, but I don't think it is going to be easy. These birds are very rare, and I have not seen one.

Madas, are these German pieds from the Salaan or Hillerman pied strains, or perhaps something different? They seem to be very far along in the pied process. Beautiful birds!

Johan S wrote: Madas, are these German pieds from the Salaan or Hillerman pied strains, or perhaps something different?

Hi Johan,

i can't tell you. Most rec. pied breeders here don't care about the origin of thier pied strain. Means if they are out the Jaynee Salan pied strain or out of the Helmut Hillermann strain. But i know for sure there are both types available here in Germany. Some breeders own both types because they tried to stabalize the pied pattern by mixing both types. BTW.: Most pied birds in the pics above are youngsters and haven't moulted for the first time. So the they haven't lost a part of thier piedness.

Here are some other pieds of Europe (Mr. Geldhof - if i remember correct he was one of the first european breeders with Salan pieds):

Hi can anyone confirm if this is true, I've heard that the Hiillermann Pieds were bred by the Hillermann Brothers from Wartburg in Pietermaritzburg, I've heard that their dad bought a flock of green birds and bred the pied out of this lot of visually green birds, they own Hillermann Brothers Sawmill here in Wartburg, Pietermaritzburg. This is how the story goes but don't know if its true

Thanks
Lushen

The Salaan pieds are actually rather scarce in South Africa, probably because of the abundance of the Hillerman strain that originated here and therefore less interest. If the young ones in Germany loose their piedness, those are probably from Hillerman stock. Jaynee stated that the Salaan pieds 'are stabilized and doesn't loose it's piedness'. Since they are so rare here, I haven't heard of a local breeder here that confirmed that statement, although I'm not claiming that it isn't true.

@Lushen. Yes, the Hillerman pied strain originated in Pietermaritzburg. Small world, hey!

Hi Johan, thanks for confirming, I've heard this as a story from a friend who also breeds ringneck, but found it hard to believe that they originated from the same city I live in, I hope to one day get and breed some pieds from this strain, another question, if a breeding pair of ringnecks are both green/pied, is there anyway of visually knowing if they are in fact split pied or will they just look like normal greens

Thanks
Lushen

Lushen1600 wrote:Hi Johan, thanks for confirming, I've heard this as a story from a friend who also breeds ringneck, but found it hard to believe that they originated from the same city I live in, I hope to one day get and breed some pieds from this strain, another question, if a breeding pair of ringnecks are both green/pied, is there anyway of visually knowing if they are in fact split pied or will they just look like normal greens

Thanks
Lushen

Some split birds show one or two yellow flight feathers or one light toenail. But this isn't a "true" sign for a split bird. Some other breeders believe that they are identifiable by thier higher, squeaky voice.

Johan S wrote:If the young ones in Germany loose their piedness, those are probably from Hillerman stock.

Some do and some don't. That's why some breeders tried to mix them.

A breeder wanted to swop a pair of green/pieds for my blue cock in Pair 3 and my blue rainbow hen in Pair 7, but I'm not too keen on getting birds which look visually green and don't know if they are really split pied, he claims the pair to both be green/blue/pied, but I have decided to rather keep my birds than to have birds which I'm not sure if they really have these split, do you guys think I made a wise decision

Thanks
Lushen

madas wrote:

Lushen1600 wrote:Hi Johan, thanks for confirming, I've heard this as a story from a friend who also breeds ringneck, but found it hard to believe that they originated from the same city I live in, I hope to one day get and breed some pieds from this strain, another question, if a breeding pair of ringnecks are both green/pied, is there anyway of visually knowing if they are in fact split pied or will they just look like normal greens

Thanks
Lushen

Some split birds show one or two yellow flight feathers or one light toenail. But this isn't a "true" sign for a split bird. Some other breeders believe that they are identifiable by thier higher, squeaky voice.

I am one of those breeders and it is 100% true for some birds. Ironically, the mystery bird above is just such a / pied with a much higher voice than your normal IRN. You can clearly distinguish it, and it is rather strange! Actually, I posted a wrong photo for the mystery bird! The bird above is a 'decent' quality violet bird split for pied that was photographed at a very 'unflattering feather angle' (somewhat from below).

Here is the bird that I meant to upload...



This is a cobalt, but a rather purple looking one when compared to our others. And also the first bird to be confused by visitors with the violet we own that looks like a cobalt in SF. To be fair, this bird actually looks more violet than that actual violet bird, which, to me, makes it a mystery. She is currently on 5 eggs, paired to a normal looking cobalt, to establish if they will produce normal looking mauves. It is incredible to me how much this cobalt differs from the European cobalt (should be the same) that Rod has uploaded.

Molossus has anticipated and predicted the puzzle rather well. He had the answer without even the correct photo uploaded! Lets just say he had an unfair advantage, as he knows me well and we have discussed this topic before.

Hi Johan,

To me it looks like violetcobalt, this is what I have been breeding with cobalt & violet combinations. I think you have answered you own question "the bird is more violet than a violet" this is typical of the violetcobalts, in my breeding outcomes the violetcobalt colouring is not much different than the df violets, but certainly more violet then a sf violet, this is based on my breeding experiences and we know there are variations in the depth of the violet colour in the sf violetblues.

The photo of the cobalt posted by Madas is exactly how my cobalts appear.

For those who read my previous post on the emerald violet pallid, she is currently on 3 eggs, looking forward to outcomes, she is paired with a violetcobalt possibly split pallid.

Good luck with breeding season to those in the southern hemisphere.

Regards Glenn

Hi the topic on pieds always intrigued me and while searching last night I found this article, might be of interest to some

http://www.sunbird1.co.za/new_page_8.htm

Thanks
Lushen

mallee_1 wrote:Hi Johan,

To me it looks like violetcobalt, this is what I have been breeding with cobalt & violet combinations. I think you have answered you own question "the bird is more violet than a violet" this is typical of the violetcobalts, in my breeding outcomes the violetcobalt colouring is not much different than the df violets, but certainly more violet then a sf violet, this is based on my breeding experiences and we know there are variations in the depth of the violet colour in the sf violetblues.

Hi Glenn, that is exactly what we were thinking last year! But, I've since developed some doubt that it is a violet cobalt combination. Her 2011 clutch produced two normal cobalt looking birds (like the cock), and two birds that looked exactly like her. My thinking is that, if it is indeed a combination, we should be more likely to see separate components of the combination in the offspring than multiple chicks with the same combination. However, as you know, 4 offspring are not enough to make a conclusion. One might get lucky and get 2 violet cobalts in a season, and then nothing the next. What also worries me is that there wasn't any blue or mauve offspring. That is why we are test breeding her for another season. Hopefully there will be 5 more chicks to help solve the 'mystery'.

And good luck with the breeding season to you too!

Johan S wrote:

mallee_1 wrote:Her 2011 clutch produced two normal cobalt looking birds (like the cock), and two birds that looked exactly like her. My thinking is that, if it is indeed a combination, we should be more likely to see separate components of the combination in the offspring than multiple chicks with the same combination.

...

What also worries me is that there wasn't any blue or mauve offspring.

Hi Johan,

but from a pair cobalt x violet-cobalt you will get 25% cobalt and 25% violet-cobalt. So nothing special in your breeding results.
Just as expected. ;) I am pretty sure you will get your mauve this season.

Very true Madas, but 25% cobalt and 25% violet cobalt only accounts 50% of the expected outcome. Just like for cobalt (variety 1) x cobalt (variety 2). And for cobalt x violet (variety X?)... But, since we already have the first 50%, let's hope that this season all chicks will be form the other 50%.

Hi everyone

I know this is going off topic of cobalt, violets and pieds, but referring back to the beginning with the turquoise grey. The rose in cocks indicating it is turquoise. I have a question, do all turquoise males have the rose in cocks? My turquoise blue male has white in the back, no rose.
The comment only processed in my brain when I was feeding my birds yesterday.

Thanks
Carmen

Hi Carmen

For a turquoise the neck ring is black with either rose or white

Thanks
Lushen

Thanks Lushen

Aah ok, I see

so this is my male with his hen(photos are always deceiving, but I think closest to his colours at the time)


Uploaded with ImageShack.us

She is currently on 4 eggs.

What would he be "classified" as?

Hi Carmen, no worries about hijacking the topic; I'm guilty of that myself and can only justify it by saying that the topic is on 'thoughts on mutations'. And we both supplied some thoughts!

As for the question regarding the neckring, if the neck ring consists of black, white and rose, it is turquoise. If it consists of only black and white, it is considered by our overseas friends as indigo. In SA, the distinction hasn't been adopted widely and all birds are referred to as turquoise.

Ok I never knew that, thanks Johan, I've learnt something new

Thanks
Lushen

Sharing is caring, my friend!

Thanks Johan. I find it interesting that there are so many differences between SA and elsewhere.