Emerald, einmal

[Sherjil]

Hi Recio
I have been thinking again. I agree with you that the possibility of a close linkage between Emerald and Blue would effectively negate the chance of proving EmeraldBlue by breeding my TurquoiseEmerald hen with a BlueBlue cock. However, as I have said before, surely anything other than EmeraldBlue or TurquoiseBlue chicks does prove the opposite IE that Emerald is not a par blue.
I am convinced that the Emerald BlueBlue proposition also has a simple fatal flaw. I now have a few EmeraldBlue Cleartails and they all carry a good amount of that pale yellow emerald psitticin underneath. As I understand it, BlueBlue is a null mutation shutting down the production of psitticin completely. If this is correct, they should surely be white underneath not pale yellow. Therefore Emerald BlueBlue is presumably impossible.
If I am wrong again please explain.
Kind regards
Mike

Mike, and an alternative to Recio's point of view, if blue1blue1 completely blocks the production of psittacin, and blue2blue2 completely blocks the production of psittacin, why does the blue1blue2 budgie have a yellow face? The reasoning of Recio regarding enzymatic regulation can also apply here.

Hi Johan;

Can you please share side by side snap of Blue1Blue1 and Blue2Blue2 budgies ?

Br/Sherjil

[Mikesringnecks]

Hi Johan
I'm afraid I don't really know anything about regulation of enzyme production, I'll have to find a reference somewhere.
As to Blue1 and Blue2 are they not at different Loci and if so how can one have Blue1Blue2 which, written like that, surely places them at the one locus. I'm afraid I have never read up on the two budgie blue loci because it didn't exist in the IRNs, I'll do so forthwith unless you can explain it to me first.
Do you still want a photo of young Emerald chicks. As I think I told you a week ago I have a clutch of 5 hatching from a VioletGreen BlueBlue CleartailCleartail cock and an EmeraldTurquoise CleartailCleartail hen. The last egg is a day late hatching (3 days after the forth egg) so should be out tomorrow and I can try photographing from the side door in the nest box. I can't do any better, hen is not tame and I can't access my boxes from the top.
Any education on B1 and B2 would be much appreciated.
Kind regards
Mike

[Mikesringnecks]

Hi Recio
Thanks very much for the response. I will keep hoping that my emeralds are something more than simple alleles of blue for a bit longer. However, I don't understand anything about complementation so I will have try and learn something about it presumably from the reference you gave.
I can envisage how Cinnamon and Ino might produce an unexpected outcome because Cinnamon is a result of shortening the eumelanin production process is it not. If so, then maybe Ino has its primary impact towards the end of the eumelanin production process thereby allowing the passage of some "brown eumelanin". Rubbish or a viable explanation?
Kind regards
Mike

[Mikesringnecks]

Hi Recio
Read the Terry reference thank you so now understand that the complementation terms are used to define some as yet unexpected and unexplained outcome in the phenotype.
The only weird outcome I have so far seen with Emerald is the EmeraldTurquoise outcome where the expected psitticin patchiness in young birds seems to be eliminated. Are there other forms of "complementation" associated with Emerald that I should be looking for and does the elimination of patchiness mean anything significant in your view re complementation?
Kind regards
Mike

[Johan S]

Hi Johan;

Can you please share side by side snap of Blue1Blue1 and Blue2Blue2 budgies ?

Br/Sherjil

Hi Sherjil, unfortunately I don't. Will have to Google it.

Hi Johan
I'm afraid I don't really know anything about regulation of enzyme production, I'll have to find a reference somewhere.
As to Blue1 and Blue2 are they not at different Loci and if so how can one have Blue1Blue2 which, written like that, surely places them at the one locus. I'm afraid I have never read up on the two budgie blue loci because it didn't exist in the IRNs, I'll do so forthwith unless you can explain it to me first.
Do you still want a photo of young Emerald chicks. As I think I told you a week ago I have a clutch of 5 hatching from a VioletGreen BlueBlue CleartailCleartail cock and an EmeraldTurquoise CleartailCleartail hen. The last egg is a day late hatching (3 days after the forth egg) so should be out tomorrow and I can try photographing from the side door in the nest box. I can't do any better, hen is not tame and I can't access my boxes from the top.
Any education on B1 and B2 would be much appreciated.
Kind regards
Mike

Hi Mike, you are right to question the notation, because it is confusing compared to Recio's hypothesis. However, the two unique blue mutations known to exist (the case for budgerigar) are in fact alleles of the same locus. Recio's theory of blue1 and blue2 being non-allelic and at different loci would be unique with no known examples to exist (yet) (that I known of at least). So in this, Recio and I differ in our approach to blue1 and blue2, and also the emerald mutation, which I believe to be an allele of the blue locus too. Note that either models, emerald being an allele, or a close gene tightly linked, would both behave very similarly, and only one in a hundred (approximated) chicks will deviate from the expected (allelic theory) if and only if emerald is non-allelic to blue/parblues but tightly linked. Establishing this, for me personally, isn't such a high priority, because the result would not have a significant impact on the way we calculate the offspring. For me, the more interesting question is whether emerald is recessive to green or codominant. We'll need to investage a green bird carrying emerald under UV. I think an experiment with 2 such birds paired together would also yield interesting results.

And yes please, I'd still like photos. In the nest is much better than no photos, so I'd be happy with them. You can send them to me privately if the forum uploading is giving you hassles.

[Sherjil]

Hi Johan;

Can you please share side by side snap of Blue1Blue1 and Blue2Blue2 budgies ?

Br/Sherjil

Hi Sherjil, unfortunately I don't. Will have to Google it.

Hi Johan;

To my knowledge only allele of blue2 exist (yf type1&2 and goldenface) and not the blue2 mutation itself.

Regards;
Sherjil

[Mikesringnecks]

Hi Johan
Thanks a bunch for that, I actually understood it this time. Do you have any idea if the complete loss of psitticin patchiness in young birds when TurquoiseEmerald emerges has any genetic meaning/significance?
Fifth chick hatched last night so I will take photos of the clutch today. Only one of the previous 5 turned out to be Emerald, the other 4 are all VioletGreen TurquoiseBlue CleartailCleartail but I can't see the psitticin yet in all of them (not unusual that was the case last year too).
Kind regards
Mike

[Mikesringnecks]

Hi Johan
Photos taken as promised from side in nest box with flash. Mother TurquoiseEmerald CleartailCleartail father VioletGreen BlueBlue CleartailCleartail. The youngest is visible in the second photo in the middle of the pile about 1 day old.
The previous clutch under a tame foster mother comprise 5 VioletGreen CleartailCleartail one of which is EmeraldBlue, the other 4 are presumably TurquoiseBlue but I can't yet see the Turquoise.
I hope the photos transmit this time, I have degraded them to minimal pixels from picassa.
Kind regards
Mike

[Johan S]

Thanks for the pictures, Mike. Can you see any difference in skin colour/tone in the chicks in real life?

[Mikesringnecks]

Hi Johan
Both my experienced EmeraldBlue hens had 5 eggs in the first clutch but only 1 Emerald in each clutch. They both had 5 again in the second clutch and I am anticipating that the Emerald odds should improve. I will therefore have a very careful look at skin tones in the second nest of the first mother who will usually cooperate. The second one is still on the eggs but she is extremely uncooperative.
Kind regards
Mike

[Johan S]

Thanks Mike. I'm holding thumbs that you have better success the second time around.

[Mikesringnecks]

Hi Johan
In the first photo I sent you can just see the back of the youngest chick of the 5 on the bottom left. It looks to be a darker pink than the other 4 and I thought that was probably because it was a lot younger than the others (3 days). I have just ringed the other 4 and the youngest still has a different darker pink body colour. I will keep you posted if it turns out to be significant in terms of phenotype. It is ring number 060 MG.
Kind regards
Mike

[Recio]

Hi Mike,

Try to have a look at the skin colour under different lights including, of course, uv. Let's see if any kind of relation can be made with the final feathers phenotype.

Regards

Recio

[Mikesringnecks]

Hi Recio
Will do. Last clutch of potential emeralds is just starting to hatch. Mother is EmeraldBlue split Cleartail and father is Violet TurquoiseBlue Cleartail so unfortunately there are quite a range of possible outcomes which makes picking emerald effects difficult.
Kind regards
Mike

[Mikesringnecks]

Hi Recio, Johan
I have the results of my EmeraldTurquoise CleartailCleartail hen's season. Last year 5 Emerald and 2 Turquoise no Blue Blue or EmeraldTurquoise.

This season she was paired to a VioletGreen; BlueBlue; CleartailCleartail cock and they produced 2 clutches of 5 chicks.

The first clutch comprised 1 VioletGreen; EmeraldBlue; CleartailCleartail and 4 VioletGreen; TurquoiseBlue; CleartailCleartail chicks. I could not see any yellow pigmentation on the last TurquoiseBlue so put it under a UV light this morning. No yellow on the white belly, socks or tail but quite a bit of greenish florescence in the wings which is invisible in natural lighting.

The second clutch is still in the nest but it clearly comprises 1 VioletGreen; TurquoiseBlue; CleartailCleartail, 1 Violet Green; EmeraldBlue; CleartailCleartail and 3 EmeraldBlue; CleartailCleartail chicks. The darker chick that I photographed earlier on Johan's suggestion turned out to be one of the EmeraldBlues Johan so no clues there unfortunately.

I will continue to look for EmeraldTurquoise in the 5 chicks carrying Emerald but I don't hold out much hope there. I think I may have EmeraldTurquoise; VioletGreen chicks from another clutch which should facilitate comparison when they all fledge.
Kind regards
Mike

[Johan S]

Thanks for the feedback, Mike. Much appreciated.

[Mikesringnecks]

Hi Recio and Johan
This seasons chicks from my TurquoiseEmerald Cleartail hen have now fledged and coloured up sufficiently to be certain of their phenotype. There are 5 EmeraldBlue and 5 TurquoiseBlue. There are no BlueBlue and no TurquoiseEmerald unfortunately.
Last season there were 5 EmeraldBlue and 2 TurquoiseBlue.
Kind regards
Mike

[Johan S]

Thanks Mike. We can say with high certainty that we are dealing with allelic mutations.