IndianRingNeck.com

Hi Sheyd

unfortunatly that was a long time ago,all i can remember is that a friend of mine was selling a turquoise violet blue pallid hen, and I purchased it and it looked like a yellow bird, i paired it up to my blue (not sure if it was split to anything) cock bird and produced a turquoise violet blue split pallid cock

Gratz wrote:Hi Madas

do you really think my avatar is a saddleback ?
I have sent Deon Smith a pic of this bird quiet a while ago and asked him what his thoughts were but he still hasnt gat back to me.
i wont put any pics on here as this is Bens thread but if you think its worth while i might start a thread on it
by the way i finally posted the pics i wanted Ben to see

thanks for your input Madas

Yeah open a new thread. I am interested in the parents.

Ben
I will try to find out over the next few days for you,
I purchased her as a turquoise violet blue pallid ,

here are more pics of the hen with her babies
ps still trying to get in touch with the breeder to find out what her parents were

Gratz wrote:Hi Sheyd

unfortunatly that was a long time ago,all i can remember is that a friend of mine was selling a turquoise violet blue pallid hen, and I purchased it and it looked like a yellow bird, i paired it up to my blue (not sure if it was split to anything) cock bird and produced a turquoise violet blue split pallid cock

That's amazing- looking forward to the parent info- also, for being so pale- would this be considered a "light phase" Pallid? probably why the Turq turns yellow as there is no/hardly any pigment to work on??

I must admit that if it weren't for this forum, then I wouldn't have known what I had or was going to be getting either..it is a tricky mutation when it can blend in so easily- most are probably mistaken or sold as normals esp the sf cocks.

That CHF is what I think a Pallid SL Edged would look like too- you never know- there are probably soome about- Pallid seems pretty popular in Oz right now.

Hi Ben and Sheyd,

Finally got on to the breeder of the turquoise violet blue pallid hen (yellow looking bird)
The cock bird was a turquoise blue pallid
The hen was a violet blue
Ps , I asked him if there was any chance that the cock bird was a turquoise blue pallidino, he said " no but it was very heavily pasteled" , possibly DF turquoise ?

Hope that helps
Regards
Gratz

Gratz wrote:Hi Ben and Sheyd,

Finally got on to the breeder of the turquoise violet blue pallid hen (yellow looking bird)
The cock bird was a turquoise blue pallid
The hen was a violet blue
Ps , I asked him if there was any chance that the cock bird was a turquoise blue pallidino, he said " no but it was very heavily pasteled" , possibly DF turquoise ?

Hope that helps
Regards
Gratz

Hi Gratz,
Nice work, Thanks for that.

from that pairing it can not be df turquoise, as both parents needs to be turq.


POssible scenario : the father to be indigo-turquoise? then the yellow hen could have received both mutations: indigo & turquoise.

Hi Ben
Sorry for the confusion
I should have specified when I said

Ps , I asked him if there was any chance that the cock bird was a turquoise blue pallidino, he said " no but it was very heavily pasteled" , possibly DF turquoise ?

I was referring to the father of the yellow looking hen

Hi Ben , Sheyd and anyone else interested
Here is a pic of the father (far right)
Ben you could be on the right track about the bird being Indigo , didn't know much about the Indigo in 2006 but looking at the cock bird now it has a pale lemon coloured head and chest and belly look sky blue same trait as the Indigo




Hope this helps

Hi Ben

unfortunately I don't know where the cock bird ( father ) has ended up.
But yes I believe that he was carrying something like cinnamon , ino or even opaline, we cant see the wings of the cock bird but that is the reason I asked the breeder if the bird was a pallid split to anything,
is there such a thing as pallid creamino ?

with the yellow looking hen , she has only produced violet blue and blue , also both in turquoise , never produced a yellow looking bird, but I assume her offspring that were cocks may carry the gene to reproduce the yellow looking bird,
I will try to find out if anyone who has a cock bird from her and has bred from him

This pic is a pallid-opaline crossover so it'd be hard for a breeder to pick it other than the flights but even that, Shey's violet pallid shows that sort of opaline-pallid marking in the flight feathers.



[/color][/quote]
Is there a difference between an pallid-opaline crossover as pictured and a pallid opaline, or same bird different terminology ?

Benjamin same bird.

Gratz

ino and pallid are mutations of the same locus so no you can not have hens pallidino

did you keep the violet turq. male that you bred? he would also be split the hidden mutation.

We can not use pallid male becuase we need to see the hidden mutation without pallid.

Yes no surprise there in your breeding results. I also bred 3 violet parblues last year but i did not keep any unfortunately.
males will be split to that hidden mutation as well as pallid.

will try to find out if anyone who has a cock bird from her and has bred from him

we are only interested in hens, half the hens should be the hidden mutation.

83IV

Ben, if opaline when combine with CT changes head colour to dark, why did it not darken the head colour on the pallid, any thoughts ?

Recio mentioned in an old post regarding this bird:

The bird in that pic is a grey pallid opaline combo in the blue series, so there are not psittacines, and it does not allow to know the effects of opaline on psittacines.

There are hen blue series opaline CT that have been bred and have the blue head, so I thought that would be an indication to its combining effect on the light head colour mutations.

Yes i know.

I can only guess that it has to do with both mutations being in the same cromossome hence the crossover and pallid-opaline's head color stays as pallid?!

Recio, Madas etc, could answer this better then I.
Good question, haven't thought about it before.

I also found this post by Recio, it might give us some insight.

Hormonal independent melanin: this would be the melanin shown by pallids. It is an homogeneous layer of melanin througout the whole body but the head. In pallids the head is free of any melanin. This is a very light layer and this is the reason that pallids display very light colours, mainly in the blue series where no psitacine is present to "increase colouring". I thinck that pallid mutation prevents any synthesis of hormonal dependent melanin from birth. Data in this sense come also from the effects of pallid on opaline mutation: when looking at a combo of pallid-opaline (look at Jay's pic) we can see that pallid prevents opaline induced changes in head colouring (darkening) which are mediated by a hormonal mechanism.

Ben
unfortunately I didn't keep any ,
but I will get in touch with the person who purchased the bird from me.
will let you know

bennjamin wrote:There are hen blue series opaline CT that have been bred and have the blue head, so I thought that would be an indication to its combining effect on the light head colour mutations.

Bennjamin, what is the head colour of a normal blue series CT hen without opaline? If unsure, have a look here http://www.indianringneck.com/forum/vie ... 6&start=50. That should explain why the combination opaline CT hen have a dark head.

Interesting- thanks for updating Glenn.

Ben, while looking through some pics on one of the FB sites I stumbled across a TurqBlue pallid who had yellow and green patches on her back (sent you some pics).

Benjamin- that pic makes her wing markings look darker than they actually are

molossus wrote:Ringo its the turq violet daughters tail...
I somehow see a lot of red on the dams features. try breeding her to an opaline.
btw I voted for the cobalt like bird.

Molossus
Somehow, no idea how i missed above reply from you, just saw it now while doing a search on opaline

I do not have Opaline; but i paired her to a grey pied, next best thing, so far they seem to go well

Well here's a couple more pics for viewing:
(pretty sure i used flash)





*** Does anyone have an open wing of an opaline? cobalt or violet preferably.

The makeup only works on her
I have a small suspicion why, so i paired her to a grey
I see better in grey

Ring0 - that hen above is absolutely stunning!! Nice one!

Hi RingONeck

Just came across this thread. The Yellow bird with the Violet Cinnamon flights and tail I am confident is a combo Turq/Indigo Violet. I have seen this variant previously when Turq/Indigo are crossed. Another telltale is in the daughter where the Indigo has enhanced the psittacin to Aqua Green and the Violet to Electric Dark Blue. The Turq influence is shown in the suffusion of the psittacin across the daughters back and body. The mother the Turq has turned parts of the Green to Yellow and the Indigo represented by the Lemon coloured areas. Another trait is these crossovers normally always seem to have the Yellow Turq coloured head. I have seen these traits in an NQR Indigo Blue cock I owned. This cock although had Indigo patter-nation had the wrong colour face being green, this bird turned out to be split for Pallid and Cinnamon and always produced these mutations in every clutch, sometimes the split between these two mutations would be evident in the same bird 50/50. The Lemon Ino of Murphy's was a direct result from an Ino/Indigo cross and was a nice coloured bird although miserable in type and shape. I have a picture of this bird if you want. The problem with Murphy was he really did not have a clue, however he was able to pick the Indigo (Aqua) at a time when all others were convinced this bird to be a Turq variant.

Cheers
Paul

Ring o Neck welcome to the world and murky depths of aqua {indigo} breeding in the IRN. The unexpected photo that you have just posted was experienced by myself last year and now you can revisit all your theory as you will now enter a new dimension of this enthralling hobby. Finally someone else looks like falling into the abyss of the unknown and unchartered zone of gene reaction I reiterate on the possibility of a second blue locus that you may not find predictable be warned it's a strange journey.
Cheers
Paul

Hi Paul,

You're very likely to be right and so far I tend to agree with you for the most part.

Indian Ringneck Vic wrote:R... Finally someone else looks like falling into the abyss of the unknown and unchartered zone of gene reaction I reiterate on the possibility of a second blue locus that you may not find predictable be warned it's a strange journey.
Cheers
Paul

It's music to my ears

I hope it is as complex as you think it is and if so, I am more then willing to solve the puzzle.

I am however confident that i'll know just that once the birds from this breeding season feather up.
I also have 4 young chicks from her daughter, so 9 young if all goes well should tell us a lot.
*As for now it seems that the yellow hen is turquoise & Indigo or df indigo & daughter is turq-indigo (turq from father)


I appreciate your input, if you'd like to send Murphy's pic or any other photos email them to me at
ringneck@
techemail.com


PS: I said in previous post:

I did not see this coming although i am glad that it did

What i did not see coming is the non violet or violet-dark offspring, but i did expect a second Parblue mutation.

Cheers
Ben

Both! But if I had to choose, 2

Ring0Neck wrote: Look at the bird below; 1st pic close to real color but 2nd pic is with flash and see what happends.

enlighten me- what are we looking at with the flash? (nice df btw! )

sheyd wrote:

Ring0Neck wrote: Look at the bird below; 1st pic close to real color but 2nd pic is with flash and see what happends.

enlighten me- what are we looking at with the flash? (nice df btw! )

Thanks Shey,
That bird is the "alpha" in this pack
It is a Violet & Dark blue from what i can see thus far, the only only 1 that does not show parblue yet! If he ends up not being parblue then that proves the yellow hen carries 2 different mutations and it is not a homozygous turq or indigo and proves Non-allelic relationship between the 2 mutations but i guess parblue will show up later on, most probable in a few days i'd say.

The last 2 pics in perv. post is the same bird.
I see Purplish color without flash (and when i look at the bird with naked eye)
I see Blueish with flash
I don't think it means anything... if anything it lets me see better if the bird is parblue
It highlights how difficult it is to compare birds through pics without a reference bird.

why not- isn't there about a one in four chance of a chick not getting Turquoise or Indigo from a parent which carries both in sf? I'll say no parblue for him. Nice colour now you're making me look forward to my Violet Cobalt (nest brother to my Violet(df?) Cobalt cock) birthday present

No, it acts as a homozygous parblue
As i understand it: offspring is 100% turquoise-indigo or turqupise-emerald etc

PS: Here's the bucket:
the 2 non-violet parblues ATM looks 2 diff. shades of green...

huh! well that's interesting- wouldn't have thought it would act like that. I see the chick's now got the green markings coming thru- you have a mixed barrel for sure- and very curious on the two different hues on the two non violets..

Congratz on your present , well done.

BTW my Bday is coming up too

Yeah, need to work on Christmas now...

Honestly ! they look much nicer in the pic below then they do in real time,
amazing colors though, my camera seems to see things i don't see hmm 1 of us need to see an optom
BTW these 2 are the non-violet parblues





and with violet in full sun



Just to clarify when i said "offspring is 100% turquoise-indigo or turqupise-emerald etc"
I mean 100% parblue, if we have a turquoise-indigo X blue
offspring will be:
50% turquoise blue
50% Indigo blue

Your result with a blue is true for this pairing : turq.blue X indigo blue

My guess is the bird on the right of your top pic is turq blue the other is what I consider to be typical indigo aqua variant it will change considerably be time fledging then again at juvenile moult then at 12 month moult it will indicate it's final phenotype then subtle changes will a cur up until 3 years old.The nest mate being turq is another indicator of this genotype being present in this family and will play havoc on your breeding results.

My guess is the bird on the right of your top pic is turq blue the other is what I consider to be typical indigo aqua variant

Aqua is the official name for Emerald which is not involved in this pairing.

From the image of 4 in the bucket I can see 4 Parblues. They will either be IndigoBlue or TurquoiseBlue if the parents were IndigoTurquoise x Blue as you have stated Ben. Now we just need a TurquoiseEmerald x Blue pairing to prove/disprove the Emerald inheritance.

trabots I disagree on all points stated in this post as I do with regard to a lot of your comments ringoneck I stand by my comment re indigo aqua variant.

Disagree? Great

More then happy to hear your version.

I am always ready to learn something new.

I know what you don't agree with: The name Aqua, as you believe the name should be atributed to the Indigo mutation.

You are welcome to post your views here if you sincerely want to contribute.

You said:

as I do with regard to a lot of your comments ringoneck

Please do correct me when i make a wrong assumption, as you realise most of this thread regarding the yellow bird is assumptious NOT conclusive hence me doing the investigation, it'd pointless doing the breeding test if i already knew the answer.


I said:

Thanks Paul for your contribution and nice work/report on your website.

* I just praised (not critised ) you on your work on Parblues in my previous post, so what's with the Agro attitude?
As i mentioned previously please do share your knowledge, but if its just to do with naming, keep me out as i have no part in it, i just called them as they have been named so others understand what mutation i'm refering to.

PS: did i mention that i hate politics??
Cheers

It is not that I object to the name, call it want you want. What I object to is being corrected for using a description of a morph by someone that hasn't taken the time or had the decency to digest this blog in it's entirety. Hence the further comment in regard to test mating emerald/turquiose when the topic is about your subject bird and it's genetic composition any experienced person with animal husbandry would surely regard this notion as ridiculous as what has been suggested cannot be beneficial unless full history is known of the 2 new birds to be used in this comparison pairing. Even if this information was available then what? To upset things I read a post by Madas last week where he stated he had seen photo's of SA emeralds that looked patchy wouldn't it be prudent to see what the outcome is there before making brash statements about what is or isn't an emerald or aqua think carefully on this subject. I stand by my description or are we to be chastised for using a word in it's correct text. I will now go to the shop in my blue green car because I can't have an aqua one if I did it couldn't have any patches on it or it would then be indigo what ever that is. Nonsense absolutely. Spoiling the forum with alter ego absolutely. How many professors participate in this forum my guess none. How many pseudo professor's participate too many. What is wrong with just being a birdo.

trabots I disagree on all points stated in this post as I do with regard to a lot of your comments ringoneck I stand by my comment re indigo aqua variant.

IRN Vic,

1st point: Bastiaan and Martin and Smith and Mutavi and the International Naming System use Aqua to name the mutation in IRNs we call Emerald. Babu named the Indigo, we are stuck with that name, who besides yourself calls it an Aqua?

2nd point: The correct way to name a heteroallele is to leave no space between the names of the alleles and use capitals.

3rd point: If one of the parents is Blue paired to a Parblue then there cannot be a heteroallele not containing Blue in the young.

4th point: An IndigoTurquoise paired to a Blue will only breed IndigoBlues and TurquoiseBlues.

I am happy to be corrected with facts and references, please elaborate on these points as Ben also has asked.

It is not that I object to the name, call it want you want. What I object to is being corrected for using a description of a morph by someone that hasn't taken the time or had the decency to digest this blog in it's entirety. Hence the further comment in regard to test mating emerald/turquiose when the topic is about your subject bird and it's genetic composition any experienced person with animal husbandry would surely regard this notion as ridiculous as what has been suggested cannot be beneficial unless full history is known of the 2 new birds to be used in this comparison pairing. Even if this information was available then what? To upset things I read a post by Madas last week where he stated he had seen photo's of SA emeralds that looked patchy wouldn't it be prudent to see what the outcome is there before making brash statements about what is or isn't an emerald or aqua think carefully on this subject. I stand by my description or are we to be chastised for using a word in it's correct text. I will now go to the shop in my blue green car because I can't have an aqua one if I did it couldn't have any patches on it or it would then be indigo what ever that is. Nonsense absolutely. Spoiling the forum with alter ego absolutely. How many professors participate in this forum my guess none. How many pseudo professor's participate too many. What is wrong with just being a birdo.

Where would we be if we were all just "birdos" who instead of the correct mutation name, use whatever name they think of to describe a bird's colour? How are the rest of us supposed to know what you are talking about? You mentioned Aqua, I didn't see how this thread applied to Emeralds so I commented. So ask a question about outcomes of a pairing involving 'aqua' when the bird is actually an IndigoBlue, how are we pseudo gurus or anyone else going to be able to help you, especially if Aqua is determined to be dominant and not Parblue? What exactly is an "indigo aqua variant", how is it bred?