IndianRingNeck.com

Did you breed this cock shey?
If so what were the parents, very nice looking bird though.

Hi Paul, Johan and Jacob.

I haven't thought too much on what to pair him with, or even if I will this year. I did have a thought about pulling the df Violet out and putting him in with my Cinn Edge hen for hopefully some df Edge babies- but am still umming and ahhing about this.

Cleartail in the long run would be nice- as long as it inherited close to his phenotype... I might see what CT hens are out there.

*Jacob- no I didn't breed this one

Hi Shey,

Isn't it bad when you have too many options.

lol Paul-- too many choices makes the decision hard

sheyd wrote:

Ring0Neck wrote: I also suspect the possibility of a mutated variant Edged here in OZ, perhaps ...

I have been thinking about this, and I suspect you maybe right-- I have since visited the nest brother of my young edged cock- he is just as light/same shade of colour as his brother. I will try and get pics next time I'm there to show there isn't much difference between them.

as promised, here he is as of today:


nest brother:
http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad47 ... 8a8179.jpg

Shey has promised a few updated pictures . Will get a few more of the other when I have time

thanks for the pics, nice birds mate

No worries shey and wondering if your still banned

Hi shey a few more

great looking cock bird

My newest addiction... er addition..

Nice bird, Shey What you reckon it is? I'm going with grey cinnamon edged.

Shady some close ups on this cock?? wing and flights extended..feet...thanks

Johan S wrote:Nice bird, Shey What you reckon it is? I'm going with grey cinnamon edged.

Thanks Johan I'm not sure about Cinnamon, I actually think that he may be a df SL Edged- he has light brown/pink feather shafts (same as my edged hen)- will try and get some good shots of this today- and his body is very diluted.

Molossus2 wrote:Shady some close ups on this cock?? wing and flights extended..feet...thanks

Will do- but not sure when that will be.. his feet do look like normal edged feet to me- darker than Cinnamon but lighter than Wildtype. - they are similar to the other edged cocks I have anyhow.


Here's another

saw the dark feet in the earlier pic.. it could be an allele of edge similar to the fusi...bright head and pale body...or it is an edged misty.

Molossus2 wrote:...or it is an edged misty.

I did not want to say it, i was waiting for Molossus to say it first
I tend to agree since SF grey edged should not have the wings so diluted but rather have the baring visible
head in the last pic also points to misty & increased grey body color in certain light/viewing angles
SF SL Edged on its own is not diluting the bird much at all if any

Tienie's SF SL Edged Grey below:

Shey, I see a very distinct brownish wash over the body, esp. visible in the flights and tail. It is very different from the grey edged bird at my place where the diluted regions appear whitish, so I'm fairly confident we are looking at a combination. I'm not sure about misty, since the blue misty edged birds I've seen show a very distinct light greyish/silverish blue colour, not brown. Time will tell, but he is stunning!



Ben, one can not compare a young edged bird with a mature one. The edge mutation becomes much more pronounced as the bird matures. There is a very good chance those grey edged chicks of Tienie are directly related to the mature bird above, which was also bred by him. Remember this mauve edged youngster I uploaded long ago? Have a look at him now after his 15 month moult. Can't wait for Jan/Feb 2015 when his ring will be coming through.

Ben and Lee, I do think it does much depend on the angle on which you view him and also the light- I'm not sure about Misty- (although I wish!) edged birds typically look Misty anyway don't they? The thought of Fusi did cross my mind- but then isn't Fusi inherited the same as SL Edged- it may well end up being just be a better phenotype of what we already know..?

Here are a few more- first from yesterday afternoon- the other from this morning.

I do think he at least DF SL Edged- thoughts?




note colour of rachis

one can not compare a young edged bird with a mature one. The edge mutation becomes much more pronounced as the bird matures.

Johan- you don't know how pleased I am that you've said this- I had hoped this would be the case, and I'm now looking forward to my youngsters first proper moult at the end of the year to see how much he changes. Thanks for the updated pic of your Mauve edge too

shey could he be a deep grey...deep tends to show an almost green shimmer on the secondaries...df sl edge .. could be

Here a few more
(all pics posted pretty much sums up his colour)











Question: I thought only DF cocks had light brown/pink feather shafts (same as hens) Ben, Johan, Tienne, Madas?

Ben: How are your possible Deep Greys going? will you be breeding any first year hens?

Ps, Lee my friend will be coming over hopefully in the next few weeks, so I should be able to get some nice flight shots + others then.

Shey,

It could be a df edged by looking at the latest pix

I got a grey emerald that could be masking deep from 2013.
I have a fertile egg from grey emerald x deep vio; this pair should lay another clutch in a week as i have had the eggs removed.
I have a grey masking vio chf x deep blue working the box & mating
from these 2 pairs i should get a grey deep, if all greys will look normal then it could just be that grey masks deep
time will tell

will you be breeding any first year hens?

i have 5 1st year hens paired like the edged emerald, emerald pied, green vio from Aaron's /emerald etc

Shey, the brown overlay is stunning in this bird. Maybe you can get him to breed this year? It will give a lot of insight. He is much lighter for sure than the grey sf edged bird with me, so it can either be df edge, sf edge cinnamon or misty edge. I'm sticking with cinnamon, though.

Here are some more oldies that can be used to see the full expression of edged:
Cobalt edged (I believe nothing else to be involved here)


Blue edged, with a twist. This hen was left out of our breeding program last year, and this year she is again sitting in a flock. I have had the opportunity to compare her side by side with a young blue misty cock in the same flock, and I'll put my neck out there that she is an edged misty. Notice the grey overlay, which looks very similar in real life. Distinctly misty grey like, not brown. And I'll be the first to say it, the colours brown and grey are literally a figment of our imagination. Those colours are not present in the colour spectrum and our brain creates them as a composition of other colours. It is also two colours that create a lot of problems to distinguish without proper reference colours in an image.


Thoughts?

Hm, i could be wrong but is this the same bird?



For me the bird is showing a blue head and rump. With the grey overlay the bird has to carry at least one Misty gen (i would say two).

madas

Looks the same bird and same pic ?

Shey

Any chance you can pair him to a violet hen?

Ringo,why violet?

Hi Madas, yes same bird. That particular pic was taken early morning and was overcast/rainy- and yes he did look blue in the head when I took that pic-- it however was just the lightning- as he doesn't appear like that in the sunlight- as you can see from the other pics.

He has bred both Blue and Grey chicks I was told. - so heterozygous for grey

Ben, yes I could- not sure I would want to though with Grey masking Violet.

Johan S wrote: Maybe you can get him to breed this year? It will give a lot of insight. He is much lighter for sure than the grey sf edged bird with me, so it can either be df edge, sf edge cinnamon or misty edge. I'm sticking with cinnamon, though.

Blue edged, with a twist. This hen was left out of our breeding program last year, and this year she is again sitting in a flock. I have had the opportunity to compare her side by side with a young blue misty cock in the same flock, and I'll put my neck out there that she is an edged misty.

Thoughts?

Best pairing I'm thinking would be to a Blue?

I'm going with more than likely DF until he proves me wrong- and if he throws non edged, then sf cocks can obviously have light, light feather shafts too- (which I've not seen before in person or in pics) Guess we shall see...

The only other grey bird I have here is a Cinnamon- she is currently paired up and on the other side of the yard so I can't compare them directly- or close together. I did think that he might have been lighter than what may have been considered as normal (going by his head shade only)- but really couldn't say for sure unless I had others to compare him too.

In the meanwhile, does anyone have a DF SL Edged Grey cock or Cinnamon Grey SF SL Edged cock or Misty (df or sf) Grey SL Edged (sf or df) I could try and compare him to?

I agree your hen does look Misty- will you be pairing her up with a normal to see if you are right?

Shey,

Here is one

http://parakeet.me/irn/m/em/IMG_7537.JPG

Lee, why not? having more colors in the nest to work with esp. if misty edged.

Thanks for the pic Ben- do you have anymore of him?

sheyd wrote: He has bred both Blue and Grey chicks I was told. - so heterozygous for grey

You were told but haven't proved it by your own, right? So do you really think that a "grey" bird can show a blue head and blue rump???

Hmm.. My personal experience and studying of Greys is limited since I haven't owned any before this year. I have heard others who say their normal Greys can have a blue through their heads at certain angles and lights- similar to what I have heard for some Dark Blue Greys.
-to me he (his head) only really looked blue (but not like reg Blue) in that light- now I wished I had of video'd it- just to study it again. In other lights (so far- haven't had him long enough) his head just looks grey.

Here is the shot straight after the one you quoted- it is less dramatic as the angle of the bird has changed-

sheyd wrote:I agree your hen does look Misty- will you be pairing her up with a normal to see if you are right?

Don't have the space, unfortunately. If one of my pairs don't click, I'll move her and the blue cleartail cock that is showing interest in her into a breeding aviary. That should give you your answer, you curious person you.

Johan S wrote:

sheyd wrote:I agree your hen does look Misty- will you be pairing her up with a normal to see if you are right?

Don't have the space, unfortunately.

Yes, I'm having similar 'issues' lol

Curious/interested? Definitely
I guess you'll all let us know later on down the track anyhow.

Shady something for you to remember. about misty blue:
one allele (grey body bird such as your pic bird) is actually grey bodied with a blue head and rump.
I have a misty grey that has a light grey body and a darker almost blueish head...this is a grey type. the head is actually grey , but appears blue..I would not rule out the arrival of a grey allele with a blue head,,,resembling the bird in your pic.

I go with Ringo with pairing the bird with violet...but I would use a green series violet. this will give you a wider range of color offspring..
I enclose nestbox pic of misty young. no flash used.if you have a misty in your hands this will give you valuable experience iro the mutation making identification easier..
df dk green dk green and v green : all misty. first pic with fosters in open light and second pic in box.

hi johan,uncle lee,shey, hope url are doing well

i had a bird that looked very similar ti that but he was not edged
is it possible that this could b a cobalt cinnamon grey edge???

.

Hi Sherwin(?) yes, keeping well

Any chance of some pics of the bird you had?

Sanzaf1 wrote:hi johan,uncle lee,shey, hope url are doing well

i had a bird that looked very similar ti that but he was not edged
is it possible that this could b a cobalt cinnamon grey edge???

sheyd wrote:Hmm.. My personal experience and studying of Greys is limited since I haven't owned any before this year. I have heard others who say their normal Greys can have a blue through their heads at certain angles and lights- similar to what I have heard for some Dark Blue Greys.
-to me he (his head) only really looked blue (but not like reg Blue) in that light- now I wished I had of video'd it- just to study it again. In other lights (so far- haven't had him long enough) his head just looks grey.

So then the question is why can a grey bird show blue? The grey mutation isn't altering the psittacine and isn't altering the melanin too. The grey factor is destroying the spongy zone of a feather cell which is responsible for the blue color we see in birds. So there is no change to produce resp. see blue within a grey bird. The only possible explanation could be that grey isn't a fully dominant mutation. And so only df grey birds can't produce blue (and blue heads).

So is there an info about to distinct phenotypes of ef and df greys?

hi shey
u have me mistaken for some1 else
unfortunately the bird was stolen from me and i had no pics of him,i always had bad luck with him he flew away the 1st time and i only got him 6 months later and now his gone or goo

Sanzaf1 wrote:hi shey
u have me mistaken for some1 else
unfortunately the bird was stolen from me and i had no pics of him,i always had bad luck with him he flew away the 1st time and i only got him 6 months later and now his gone or goo

ah, nevermind- .

What a shame he was taken from you- can never understand why people would do that to each other.

madas wrote:

sheyd wrote:Hmm.. My personal experience and studying of Greys is limited since I haven't owned any before this year. I have heard others who say their normal Greys can have a blue through their heads at certain angles and lights- similar to what I have heard for some Dark Blue Greys.
-to me he (his head) only really looked blue (but not like reg Blue) in that light- now I wished I had of video'd it- just to study it again. In other lights (so far- haven't had him long enough) his head just looks grey.

So then the question is why can a grey bird show blue? The grey mutation isn't altering the psittacine and isn't altering the melanin too. The grey factor is destroying the spongy zone of a feather cell which is responsible for the blue color we see in birds. So there is no change to produce resp. see blue within a grey bird. The only possible explanation could be that grey isn't a fully dominant mutation. And so only df grey birds can't produce blue (and blue heads).

So is there an info about to distinct phenotypes of ef and df greys?

hopefully others that keep and breed Greys can reply- I do know that a few have theorized that Grey maybe an incomplete dominant in the past.

madas wrote:

sheyd wrote:Hmm.. My personal experience and studying of Greys is limited since I haven't owned any before this year. I have heard others who say their normal Greys can have a blue through their heads at certain angles and lights- similar to what I have heard for some Dark Blue Greys.
-to me he (his head) only really looked blue (but not like reg Blue) in that light- now I wished I had of video'd it- just to study it again. In other lights (so far- haven't had him long enough) his head just looks grey.

So then the question is why can a grey bird show blue? The grey mutation isn't altering the psittacine and isn't altering the melanin too. The grey factor is destroying the spongy zone of a feather cell which is responsible for the blue color we see in birds. So there is no change to produce resp. see blue within a grey bird. The only possible explanation could be that grey isn't a fully dominant mutation. And so only df grey birds can't produce blue (and blue heads).

So is there an info about to distinct phenotypes of ef and df greys?

Hi Madas,

As far as I know Grey acts as a dominant mutation and the grey birds that I own do not show any blue head.

At least there are two possible explanations for such a blue head in a grey bird:

1. Grey is an incomplete dominant mutation but the difference between SF and DF Grey is not visible on standard green or blue birds. Has anybody look at the possible différences between SF and DF Grey in Cinnamon series, or on mutations desaturating melanin as Dilute? Anyway this is not the case in this bird.

2. A mutation acting as recessive and present in that bird as split (heterozygous), could become apparent in grey series and allow to see a bluish head. Hear I am specifically thinking on mutations acting on head colour as Cleartail or Clearhead Fallow.

In any case what I am meaning is that the description of a mutation as recessive, dominant, or whatever, ... is related to the behaviour of such mutation respective to the wild bird, that is respective to a standard mix of genes ... but this does not mean that the behaviour of such mutation will be the same respective to another "gold standard" than the wild bird. We should describe the behaviour of a mutation not only respective to the wild gene but respective to the homozygous and heterozygous combinations of every other mutation, or at least the following:
Green series
Blue series (not psittacin present)
Dilute series (decreased amount of melanin)
Cinnamon series (the pigment changes)
Grey series (as the structural mutation showing the highest "degradation" of the cloudy zone)
Misty series (as a probable example of structural mutation acting on the cortex)
Dom Pied (as the mutation with the most important effect on mélanocytes physiology).

In my view most of the mutations are incomplete dominant, since the expression of each allele of a gene is independent (both allèles are always expressed, each one coding for its specific protein), but it is not readily apparent mainly due to saturation phenomena of the pigment, our eyes perception , .... The study of a mutation on a different series (as described above) could uncover a different genetic behaviour.

In this specific case I would bet that the bird is carrying as split a mutation acting primarily on feather structure and producing a clearhead by secondary decreasing melanin content (Clearhead Fallow, Cleartail, ???). Could we know the parents and grandparents of this bird?

Regards

Recio

wing spread (there you go Lee- turns out I didn't need my friend afterall + close up of feather shafts

Does anyone have pics of a Cinnamon Grey SL Edge(df or sf)?

Recio wrote: In this specific case I would bet that the bird is carrying as split a mutation acting primarily on feather structure and producing a clearhead by secondary decreasing melanin content (Clearhead Fallow, Cleartail, ???). Could we know the parents and grandparents of this bird?

Regards

Recio

no sorry, Recio- no known history on this bird at all. The seller has only said that he throws Blue and Grey young- however as Madas pointed out this has yet to be proven by myself.

Thanks for everyone's participation.... Ringo & Lee I am lining up a Violet Parblue hen

not cinnamon

Molossus2 wrote:not cinnamon

The bird in question? For sure he is a cinnamon. Feets, beak, quills are matching.

madas wrote:

Molossus2 wrote:not cinnamon

The bird in question? For sure he is a cinnamon. Feets, beak, quills are matching.

If Cinnamon then it also makes sense why the head is blueish due to lighter colored head of cinnamon.

Recio wrote: In this specific case I would bet that the bird is carrying as split a mutation acting primarily on feather structure and producing a clearhead by secondary decreasing melanin content (Clearhead Fallow, Cleartail, ???). Could we know the parents and grandparents of this bird?

Don't agree with you. If i am not wrong all structual mutations are dominant resp. incomplete dominant. And i have never heard that cleartail is causing changes to the feather structure.

Grey => completely destroys the spongy zone of the feather => no chance to see blue color in such a bird becaused no light of the blue wave length is reflected
Dark and Violet => altering the width of the spongy zone => changes the wave length of reflected light

So to bring back the "blue light" to a grey birds makeup we need a mutation which is altering the structure of the feather. But there aren't much structual mutations left. To say it clear there is no structual mutation left (beside Deep).

Even Misty isn't altering the structure. It is changing the Eumelanins.

So what can we deduce from it?

There is an unknown structual mutation at play (but i don't think so) or grey isn't full dominant and only the df type is completely destroying the spongy zone.

madas

madas wrote:Grey => completely destroys the spongy zone of the feather => no chance to see blue color in such a bird becaused no light of the blue wave length is reflected
Dark and Violet => altering the width of the spongy zone => changes the wave length of reflected light

Now, it is my turn to disagree. If the spongy zone is completely destroyed, the feather integrity would be compromised and the feather would break apart during flight. It reminds me (i.e. similar, but not exactly the same) of the problems with mauve masked lovebirds many years ago, where they suffered from brittle feathers. That is what a completely destroyed spongy zone means to me, that there is no spongy zone left. The grey mutation alters the ordered nano-scale structures of the spongy zone, making it more random and difficult for light to pass. Therefore, it destroys the pattern in the spongy zone, not the spongy zone itself. Grey birds that we own show extraordinary strong feathers, and they typically look in perfect feather condition long after many other mutations start showing the wear and tear of the season.

The above, of course, merely my interpretation of what a complete destroyed anything is, and for me it means it doesn't exist anymore.

madas wrote: So what can we deduce from it?

There is an unknown structual mutation at play (but i don't think so) or grey isn't full dominant and only the df type is completely destroying the spongy zone.

madas

And another alternative, the specific selection of the brownish colour of the body and the slate head colour could be fooling the signal processor in the camera and/or our eyes and brain into making us believe that the colour is blue rather than grey. Here is an experiment: Cover the entire screen except for a small part of the head, and then ask people what colour they see. When I do that, and force myself to forget the entire picture, I interpret the colour as a lighter grey (say cinnamon grey), and not blue. Bring back the brown body by exposing the entire screen, and it changes to a more blueish colour again.

okay- I'll go with Cinnamon- if only they can also have normal coloured edged feet and lower beaks like other non Cinnamon SL Edged birds.

as said previously, his feet look like normal edge feet- normal coloured- the horn parts (nails) are grey- and the flesh is grey/brown his lower mandible is dark red (same as top) with black- not brown through it. Also, his feet and beak don't resemble my Cinnamon SL Edge hen.


Johan- I did that trick before you mentioned it (cover up the pic apart from a bit)- but as of now having the bird for several days I can clearly see that his head is grey- although light- his body looks just as how it is photographed- in the sun it is a warm kind of diluted caramel kind of colour- his head remains clear of any warm tones. In the shade, the warmness or brown tones of the body are perceived? gone.

I have a question that has me confused... Why isn't his head showing the same warm tones of that of a Cinnamon Grey?

To enlarge any of my pics, click on the pic and then click on the magnifying glass in the lower right hand corner once, then twice to get the picture to the actual file size.

Pic below shows feet and upper and lower mandible
http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad47 ... af1dfb.jpg

Anyone have a Cinnamon Grey SL Edge I can compare with?

sheyd wrote:okay- I'll go with Cinnamon- if only they can also have normal coloured edged feet and lower beaks like other non Cinnamon SL Edged birds.

Shey, we all have so much still to learn. Keep in mind, Tienie reported that the cinnamon edged chick also doesn't have plum coloured eyes, which is something else that doesn't make sense when you have a cinnamon, and dilute the colour further with SL edged.