New owner desperately seeking advice

[Doodlebug]

Apologies for long post-desperate for advice as i feel so down about my situation
I got my IRN 4 weeks ago at 8 weeks old-he/she was not hand reared/tamed/handled. I know I've made a little bit of progress as when I first got Doodlebug it clung to the side of the cage in fright, now (I'll call it he for quickness sake) he seems relaxed and preens and eats and sleeps well. I have spent every spare moment this past month with him, if I'm not with him I'm googling about him! The point I'm trying to make is that he still isn't taking treats from me, the closest I can get is putting some in the bars and leaving my hand a way down the side of the cage. I have tried everything!

I change his food etc by unclipping the bottom of his cage and pulling out the grill and going in underneath because if I even go near the doors with my hands he goes crazy i feel bad that he hasn't left his cage since being with us apart from that once when I went to open his door. He panicked flying into walls over and over, he didn't seem to realise he could go back to his cage? Anyway I eventually picked him up (I'm not afraid of him as I grew up with an IRN that my mum hand reared) and i held him for a while, he bit me (didn't put him back straight away to show him biting doesnt get you anywhere) I put him back because I didn't want him to break his neck-did I do the right thing or should I have left him out to figure things out by himself? I want him to come out and get exercise but if it makes him panic then is it doing him/our relationship any good?

Being with this gorgeous scared little thing is totally consuming me, I'm making such little headway with him even though I spend most of my time with him as I don't work many hours per week. Everything else is suffering as a result of my obsession, nothing is getting done and I'm not visiting friends or relatives!

Another thing I'm very aware of is that we have two weeks away booked off-one at the beginning of August and one towards the end-we are going caravanning. Transferring him to another cage plus the car journey plus spending time somewhere unfamiliar will stress him out, so we cant take him with us, but also being away from him for a week and having someone come in to change him that he doesn't know will undo all the tiny little improvements he has made-at the moment the whole idea of going away is making me cry! Silly I know but I've wanted another ringneck for years and now my dream has come true I just want to spend all my time with him, if I say I don't want to go away my partner will be really annoyed.

I just don't want to have to start over again So with regards to letting him out of his cage and going on holiday, does anyone have any advice?

Many thanks, Loo

: I should add Doodlebug is unclipped, my vet and a few others I have approached will not do it as they do not agree with it unless in medical circumstances and I wouldn't like to do it myself

[MissK]

Hi Loo,

Relax. Take it easy. Don't spend every second with Doodle. You've got years to work with here and it need not all happen this season. I think it's OK to stay home and be bird crazy for a few weeks, but now you can ease back into your life.

Just do what you do. I'd say coming to the cage once an hour three times is more productive than staying at the cage for three hours. Just keep near-ish to the bird, but don't quit your life.

About your holiday, don't worry. Would it kill Doodle to not get changed for a week? Just tell your caregiver to spend some low-key time in the room and speak gently to the bird while you're away. I have noticed that my bvird uses down time to process what he's been working on and usually makes some kind of great break-through after he has had the chance. Maybe Doodle would appreciate a rest, as well.

Also, two bits of more personal advice - let Doodle be his own bird. He isn't your Mum's bird, and you should not expect the same things from him. Also, stop trying to get him clipped. It will only add to his agitation in the long run and keep him from feeling comfortable. How would you feel if you were constantly visited by a scary monster and your feet were tied together?

-MissK

[Skyes_crew]

Just to add to what MissK said, when he bites, although it hurts, don't put him in his cage. He will associate biting with getting what he wants then. My one bird hamlet was parent raised. I got him at 12 weeks. He is flighted too. The first time I handled him was when I went into the aviary to catch him at my breeders place. I took quite a bite. Show no reaction. Continue to stroke his beak and head showing no fear. Croon softly to him. When he calms down, then place him in his cage. Do you have a separate play area for him? The next step is getting him accustomed to you and your hands. Find a distance from his cage that he is comfortable with and start there. Sit and read or play on your computer. Just carry on and pay no mind to him. Over time slowly move your chair closer and closer to his cage until you are sitting right next to it. The next step is placing your hand on the cage. Place one hand low on the cage and leave it there until he stops fluttering about. Then remove it. Do this over and over until he shows no reaction. Then move your hand higher...same thing until he shows no reaction. Once he's comfortable with your hands, open the door. Just sit there with the door open and your hand resting on the opening. Place your hand just a little bit in the cage until he starts to show reaction and stop till he calms down. I think you get the idea now. These steps should be taken over lots of time. Do not rush or you could break any trust you gain and have to start all over. No more than 15 minutes at a time. And always recap what you've already done the day before. Once you gain his trust it goes a lot smoother. Have fun with your new birdy

[Doodlebug]

Hi MissK and Skyes_crew, thankyou both so much for your replies I really appreciate them

MissK- You have really put me at ease, I think I've wanted this for so long I've completely thrown myself into it and become quite irrational in the process.

Although I do spend most of my day in the same room and talking, eating and having the odd snooze in front of him, I'm not by the side of his cage the whole time, only when I try giving him treats and changing his cage etc. Although he probably still sees that as harassment poor bird!

Thank you for your advice on the holiday, my sister will be popping by to see to Doodlebug although shes so busy I'm not sure she'll spend more time than needs be to change his food/water but obviously I'm grateful to her for that. I dearly hope he may have a breakthrough when I come back, that would so awesome! And I'm sure you're right when you say he probably could do with a break too!

I appreciate what you say about not being my mums bird, I found it hard not to compare at first as I was used to the intimacy with Biggles with none of the slow trust building process but I have accepted this now and am totally prepared to wait as long as it takes. I just don't know if I am going about things the right way! Also, about the wing clipping-I'm not a fan of it myself but having trawled through the boards for weeks and seeing most people recommend having it done, I thought I'd better mention he isn't but I had looked into it in case anyone said it might be the way forward. I think birds should do what comes natural, and I'd rather he come to me and go away from me at his own pace, I wouldn't want to make him stay with me because he can do nothing else.

Skyes_crew- Thank you for your post, it makes a lot of sense too I should of realised putting him back after bites is giving in to him!

My partner made a stand for him to go to when he is out of the cage, I asked for it to be quite high so Doodlebug would feel less threatened, but not too high I can't reach. It has several perches and toys hanging off.

I can sit next to his cage at the moment with no problem, it's definitely ds that are the problem though, as for many birds So will try doing what you advise before moving on to opening the door-that's when he freaks out which is perfectly understandable!

I just hope when I go away we're not back to square one again!

Thanks so much for your advice, this is an awesome board and very helpful. I feel very welcome

[Doodlebug]

Ooh one question-should I continue trying him with treats through the bars or should I get him used to my hand first?

[Skyes_crew]

I would try to get him used to having your hands on and around the cage first. Then the treats through the bars. Then the treats inside the cage. Then you can work with treats as a lure for step up training

One more thing...if he's resistant to calming down when your hands are on the cage let me know...I have one other method I use.

[Doodlebug]

Ahh thank you Skyes_crew, will try that for sure. I was wondering if he thought my hands were a nuisance as the only time he sees them up close I'm either invading his personal space by changing his food/water etc or pestering him trying to get him to take food from me!

Another thing I've noticed is that he has pulled his cover in through the bars where he settles down for the night, I thought this may be a way to hide as he sometimes goes behind it when he doesn't want us to make eye contact with him, or maybe its purely a comfort thing when sleeping? Whatever the reason I have left it alone (he did this a couple of weeks back) in case it was his way of making the cage his own and needing a little refuge. Just hope it doesn't make him too hot although I always leave that particular corner partially uncovered to let the air in. I have read up on those 'Snug' things you can buy but have heard they are dangerous, plus I don't think Doodlebug would welcome new things in his cage right now anyway! I have bought a flexible rope perch and a preening toy but he is scared of them at the moment so have hung them up next to his cage where he can eyeball them to get used to what they look like and get curious

Everything is all about Doodlebug at the minute and I don't care less, he is just so blimmin adorable

Do you have many birds Skyes_crew and MissK? How old are they and what stages are they at now in their little funny journeys?

[Skyes_crew]

Ok...try this. Put an empty bowl in his cage. When you clean his cage and change out his food/water drop a nut in the food bowl after your done. Try stainless as it makes a noise to alert him to its presence. He will start to associate that time of the day with a treat eventually.

With the cover pulled through...just make sure it doesn't have threads that can be shredded. Birds can strangle themselves easily. They can also cut off toes. If its solid though its not an issue. It's his snuggle buddy try not to make too much eye contact with your baby right now anyway. You can try to buy one of those snuggle things, but honestly they'll make their own out of their toys. Mine went to waste and my conure now has them hanging the toys outside to get him used to them is a great idea! When you start noticing him nibbling on them he's probably ready for them. It may be awhile though. First he has to feel comfortable in his new home.

I have a whole flock lol. I have 2 IRN's. Skye a 16 month old blue male and Hamlet a 6 month old violet cobalt male. 2 cockatiels Nani almost 2 and banana almost 7. 2 year old sun conure named Jewel. 4 month old male Alexandrine named Cyrano and a 14 yr old Umbrella Cockatoo name Mack. Never a dull moment in my house I also have three dogs and a horse...I think I need to start a zoo

[Doodlebug]

Wow! You do have a lot of babies under your wing! Do you keep them altogether in one room or separate? (not the dogs and horse though obviously!!) How do you cope when they are young regarding taming-do they learn better/quicker by watching you with the others? You must have plenty of room and even more patience

My routine in the morning so far has been this: Get up and uncover him and say Good morning Doodlebug and make just enough fuss of him not to freak him out so he thinks 'Go away, I've only just woken up woman!' Then I go make breakfast for my boy and a cup of tea which I drink while in the lounge, the room Doodlebug is in. Then after awhile I do my own breakfast but be sure to include something nice for Doodlebug-his faves are yellow pepper, pear, sweetcorn and mango. I've tried him with nuts, all different ones but he chucks them on the floor. He doesn't seem to like dried fruit either. While I eat my breakfast next to the cage he sits next to me fine no problem, I Umm and Ooh like my food is really yummy, then I try him with his treat. He used to only take it when I was sitiing on the floor beneath the cage with my back to him, then I moved up next to him but didn't touch the cage. Then I touched the cage and gradually moved my hand further up towards the treat but as yet he has never took it while I am very near it or holding it.

Today I did as you suggested and just sat there with no treat just putting my hand on his cage. He looked a bit alarmed probably wondering where the heck his treat was! He calmed down a bit and I moved my hand, palm against the cage a bit, then we he got used to that I moved it again. When I thought that was enough for one session I popped a grape in his treat pot. Is that the kind of thing to do?

Speaking of food pots, he has been tossing it onto the floor these past two days. First day I was at work til the afternoon so I had no way of knowing what time he did it but today it was early morning a couple of hours after I changed him. And he also threw his treat pot too! Never his water one..? I don't want this becoming a habit, do I ignore it and let him forage on the floor when he's hungry or do I replace the pot with food in it do you think?

Sorry for all these questions, I really do appreciate all the great advice

Loo

[jmlw7]

Another thing I've noticed is that he has pulled his cover in through the bars where he settles down for the night, I thought this may be a way to hide as he sometimes goes behind it when he doesn't want us to make eye contact with him, or maybe its purely a comfort thing when sleeping? Whatever the reason I have left it alone (he did this a couple of weeks back) in case it was his way of making the cage his own and needing a little refuge. Just hope it doesn't make him too hot although I always leave that particular corner partially uncovered to let the air in. I have read up on those 'Snug' things you can buy but have heard they are dangerous, plus I don't think Doodlebug would welcome new things in his cage right now anyway! I have bought a flexible rope perch and a preening toy but he is scared of them at the moment so have hung them up next to his cage where he can eyeball them to get used to what they look like and get curious

Hi - i could be off but it sounds like maybe your birdie is looking to snuggle against something or have closer cover? We bought our 11 month old Remy a birdie binkie ring and a blanket. We put her sleeping perch through the ring and leave it against the wall and she snuggles against it every single night, and sometimes even walks through it and up the cage walls... she seems to appreciate it and we dont cover the cage at all as she hates it. She does sleep next to the drapes though so that provides some soft fabric near her too. The blanket we will use during the winter and hang it on the roof of the cage near her sleeping perch for added warmth, but for now we use it only during the day if her cage is in front of the deck door all day so she can either hide or get added shade. She chews on it and preens it sometimes but we havent seen what she does with it during the day yet, so we'll know more in the winter.

binkie ring: http://www.abirdtoy.com/Birdie-Binkies_c_22.html

fleece blanket: http://www.mysafebirdstore.com/HUTS_TEN ... eidum.html

if you get one of these or something similar, they are usually brightly colored and scary to get used to... so i usually stand in front of remy and snuggle it myself and weave my fingers through it and chew on it a little, then hang it on the outside of her cage wall or door. She usually gets so curious and heads for it immediately. after gnawing on it and realizing its fine, I can then put it in her cage and she isnt scared of it at all.

[MissK]

Hi Loo,

I think I may be the odd one out here, because I have mostly tiny little birds - two Canaries, two Budgies, and my Ringneck. The Canaries are a Timbrado from 2010 and a Hartz type from 2007. The Budgies are last year's babies. The most birds I ever kept at one time are these, plus three more Canaries (all male) while I was birdie sitting for six months. I lost my little colour-bred Canary in the Spring, and I still miss the endearing way he would stomp over to the dish as I placed his morning feed. I also keep a pair of the world's most overprivileged mutt dogs.

My Ringneck, such a prize, is a second hand male of approximately 11 years. I've had him now just over a year. He came from a situation where the original owner had died, and the family had kept him hanging around in somewhat impoverished circumstances for several years. He has come a long way since then, with regards to his human relations skills and personal development. He learned to play with toys, make toothpicks, and FLY right in my living room, as well as a million other little things. At this point in time he will fly to my wrist at my suggestion, eat fruits, some vegetables, and a pellet mash, and entertain himself happily in his large cage. He cannot be petted or have his feet touched, and he rarely bites. He can be placed in a travel size cage with minimal fuss, and travels overall well. He is pretty quiet most of the time and has learned a two-part whistle from me for the contact call.

My experiences helping Rocky rehabilitate himself have been among the most rewarding of my life. I have done quite a bit of reading, here, on the internet, and in good ole fashioned books (which I highly recommend). While I've made a few mistakes, I like to think I've learned from them and have been overall very fortunate in the parrot venture. I do aspire to bring home one more bird, again a second hand, older animal who needs me. I'm very picky on this. I am looking for an Alexandrine, but might have a hard time passing up a Jardine's, if the right one came around. I'm also fairly interested in the Vasa, but never expect to even see a live one, let alone bring one home.

Thanks for asking about my birds. Every one is different, and there are different perks to keeping each individual one. Regardless of the persnickety ups and downs, I truly believe each one is a prize, unique and beautiful, as I am sure your Doodle is, too. You stick with Skye's Crew, here, and she will help you a lot.

-MissK

[Doodlebug]

Hi there jmlw7, thanks for your input regarding the cover/snuggle situation And for posting about your experience with Remy-it sounds as if she looks so cute! I did think it may be what my Doodlebug was trying to do, that's why I thought it best to leave it as it was, glad I did now

MissK- Hello again You also sound very busy with your brood-so sorry to hear you lost your little Canary. I know how that feels, they are such little characters and are very much part of our daily lives having invested so much time, patience and love in them, when they are no longer with us its quite a hard thing to get over. All your animals sound very much cared for, it's lovely to hear.

You've done so well with Rocky! He was very lucky to have fallen across your path, it sounds like you've taught him so much. Would you like to be able to pet him? I know that not all IRN's want to be touched and we as their owners would do better to accept that rather than get upset if they don't want much if any contact from us. I must admit I am very much hoping that Doodlebug will come to allow me to pet him as I'd love that kind of relationship again with an IRN. But again I realise he is a totally different bird to Biggles and will of course take whatever scraps of attention/affection he deems to afford me lol!

You sound very clued up about lots of different types of birds, and if its ok I will continue to ask advice from all of you on the board-I can't get over how lovely everyone is and all the fantastic advice given to novice beginners like me. Thank you

Could I ask everyones opinion on the benefits of the blinking game? And does copying things like stretching and yawning etc help to build your bond?

[Skyes_crew]

MissK Wrote

Thanks for asking about my birds. Every one is different, and there are different perks to keeping each individual one. Regardless of the persnickety ups and downs, I truly believe each one is a prize, unique and beautiful, as I am sure your Doodle is, too. You stick with Skye's Crew, here, and she will help you a lot.

Awwwwww thanks, but you give awesome advice two heads are better than one and multiple heads are a veritable think tank

Doodlebug Wrote

Today I did as you suggested and just sat there with no treat just putting my hand on his cage. He looked a bit alarmed probably wondering where the heck his treat was! He calmed down a bit and I moved my hand, palm against the cage a bit, then we he got used to that I moved it again. When I thought that was enough for one session I popped a grape in his treat pot. Is that the kind of thing to do?

That is precisely what I was talking about. Good job!!!

Doodlebug Wrote

Speaking of food pots, he has been tossing it onto the floor these past two days. First day I was at work til the afternoon so I had no way of knowing what time he did it but today it was early morning a couple of hours after I changed him. And he also threw his treat pot too! Never his water one..? I don't want this becoming a habit, do I ignore it and let him forage on the floor when he's hungry or do I replace the pot with food in it do you think?

IRN's will eat off the floor. My one IRN Skye Likes to eat out of a bowl on the floor of the cage. He has a weighted bottom crock. My other cages have locking bowls but Skye doesn't and I was tired of finding all of his food ruined and wasted.

jmlw7 Wrote

Hi - i could be off but it sounds like maybe your birdie is looking to snuggle against something or have closer cover? We bought our 11 month old Remy a birdie binkie ring and a blanket. We put her sleeping perch through the ring and leave it against the wall and she snuggles against it every single night, and sometimes even walks through it and up the cage walls... she seems to appreciate it and we dont cover the cage at all as she hates it. She does sleep next to the drapes though so that provides some soft fabric near her too. The blanket we will use during the winter and hang it on the roof of the cage near her sleeping perch for added warmth, but for now we use it only during the day if her cage is in front of the deck door all day so she can either hide or get added shade. She chews on it and preens it sometimes but we havent seen what she does with it during the day yet, so we'll know more in the winter.

Good catch Josie

Doodlebug Wrote

You sound very clued up about lots of different types of birds, and if its ok I will continue to ask advice from all of you on the board-I can't get over how lovely everyone is and all the fantastic advice given to novice beginners like me. Thank you

MissK is very knowledgeable and way too humble lol. This is a great forum compared to others. We all try really hard to support one another without the drama

[MissK]

re blinking: I think the blinking game, as well as mirroring, has a lot of merit. I do this with Rocky, sometimes, during our morning chat. Of course, I get really into it, and I slowly "zoom" my head closer and farther out, to the side with an exaggerated swoop, turn it as close to upside down as I can, and generally try to do the things he does when he's really into something, especially his little pink ball. I'm not exactly sure what he makes of it, but he pays very close attention. I think everybody should try this at least a few times.

re petting: Personally, I think it would be thrilling to hold the bird in my hand and snuggle him a little. I'm not really looking for that, though, and that's a good thing because I think it would be a long day coming. Probably my earlier experiences with finch type birds set my expectations that I don't really snuggle with birds. I hold them for a tiny second as needed and then let them go. Even the most I did with my first ever Budgie was to sit him on my finger and talk to him. With Rocky, I think the farthest I would realistically like us to go on a daily basis would be doing a few acrobatics in and on my hand. Of course, I do keep those dogs and I get more than my fill of snuggles from them.

re forum: Honestly, not like I get out that much (so to speak) but this is the best forum I have ever seen. I love how people will speak up to help others, how various concepts will be respectfully discussed, and how it rarely disintegrates into a "Yer bird is so Quueeewwwwt" fest. The quality of the interaction and information here is superior. Too, the friendliness of strangers banded together for the good of the birds and the hobby is a delight.

-MissK

[Skyes_crew]

I love how people will speak up to help others, how various concepts will be respectfully discussed, and how it rarely disintegrates into a "Yer bird is so Quueeewwwwt" fest.

OMG...Rocky is lik soooooooo kewt...hes totes better than lik the lik other birds on here ya kno? I mean lik hes just lik sooooo kewt!!!!!!! Lik if he entered a kewt contest he wud lik soooo win!

My 16 year old wrote this...I have no clue what it means I'm very glad we don't talk like this on this forum.

[Doodlebug]

That is precisely what I was talking about. Good job!!!

Thanks so much Skyes_crew, I tried it again this morning and got quite close him against the cage-while he was eating too

I'm going to see if the food pots stay where they are put today! Hope he leaves them alone if not they'll stay on the floor!

MissK- I do enjoy playing the blinking game with Doodlebug, it's amazing when they start doing it back how they appear so tired and about to go to sleep, he even starts grinding his beak sometimes lol! I copy him stretching too but am unsure if he knows what I'm doing as yet. I'm wondering is Doodlebug too young for toys? He doesn't seem to notice them or has any interest. He occasionally will nibble them but that's as far as it goes at the moment. I have made a homemade foraging thing-a toilet roll tube stuffed with shredded paper with millet inside-has figured that out now which made me happy However I got some munch balls and stuffed them with yellow pepper in front of him-he doesn't even touch it!

Regarding petting, of course dogs are way better for that sort of thing than birds, our feathered friends are so flighty and free-that's why it makes it so lovely and special when they choose to spend time with us, and it gives us a sense of satisfaction that all our persistence and consistency for many months/years pay off and they trust us enough to allow a little stroke every now and then. (I live in hope!)

Agreed what is being said about the forum-I have visited so many but always returned to this one with it specialising in the IRNs and being such a friendly place to come. Are most of you from the US or Australia? There are many different time zones and I guess its very unusual for many people to be online at once!

You mentioned you have taught Rocky a contact call? Doodlebug will squawk when I am out of the room, and also when I'm on the laptop or phone, I'm seeing this as an attention call? I ignore it as I don't want to encourage it, but would also like to know how you taught Rocky to respond in the way you liked? I only respond to the 'nice' chatter Doodlebug makes, its such a lovely sound and I'd love him to do it more! I'm always talking and singing and whistling to him, and when I'm out at work I sometimes leave the TV on, just to get him listening to words, am I doing the right thing or should I turn off the set and leave him in peace?

Sorry again for all these questions-you must have answered thousands of the same over and over again!

Loo

[sanjays mummi]

Sanjay was Exactly the same when I got him at 8else, I've always left the radio on for him. I persisted letting my hand stay in the cage for a minute or two until he became de sensitized to it, I offered treats through the bars until eventually his tummy overcame his fear, and no, he isn't clipped.Sanjay still won't step up, or allow me to touch him, but he kisses me through the bars, grooms my hair, and shares food.It depends what your expectations are, personally, I prefer a bit of mutual respect.

[MissK]

Thanks for that; I laughed till I cried. (Might be wired a bit tight these days....)

For the contact call, all I did was keep an ear out for when Rocky made that loud call or whistle when I was either in the same room but not minding him, or out of the room. When he made an unattractive noise, I ignored it. When he made any loud noise I modeled the whistle I wanted, the first half, pause then the second. After that I started initiating the whistle when I was not in the room and Rocky was quiet. What do you know, smart little cookie picked it up!

I must stress it is a very simple whistle, and he had previously made the first part himself on many occasions. I'm not sure who invented that little noise, but I suspect it is actually the Canaries' "I'm thinking about starting a song right now" cheep. In Canary, it is the most endearing, and it is true that I have long talked back to all my animals, imitating and possible mocking them. They never mind.

Why don't you pick a whistle that your bird already makes and learn it yourself? You could possibly have a new contact call by next week.

-MissK

[Skyes_crew]

Don't we all talk to our animals???? Please tell me I'm not crazy Well not too crazy anyway lol.

Back when I was flight recall training hamlet I picked a recall whistle for him. He's always been a really quiet bird. I got into the habit of recalling him if I noticed him getting into trouble somewhere. It was gut reaction since birds have no concept of the word no. Anyway, just a few days ago, he started returning it out of the blue. So it really is just repetition. Basically what I'm saying is, you can listen for one you like, like MissK is saying, or you can develop one that's unique to you and your bird

PS glad I could make you laugh MissK

[Doodlebug]

Sanjay was Exactly the same when I got him at 8else, I've always left the radio on for him. I persisted letting my hand stay in the cage for a minute or two until he became de sensitized to it, I offered treats through the bars until eventually his tummy overcame his fear, and no, he isn't clipped.Sanjay still won't step up, or allow me to touch him, but he kisses me through the bars, grooms my hair, and shares food. It depends what your expectations are, personally, I prefer a bit of mutual respect.

Hey sanjays mummi-thanks for posting your experience with Sanjay, I'm at the stage where I'm putting my hands on the side of the cage but don't think he's quite ready for me to open and go in yet. He still shakes quite a bit when I first go up to the cage-is this normal considering how many weeks he's been with us? Mind you I expect its still scary being confronted with this front-eyed long armed monster! He eyeballs my bare feet as if they may be hands too...

BUT...! I HAD A BREAKTHROUGH TODAY EVERYONE!! I'm so happy

I've been at work today and it's been soooo hot-we/re having a level 3 heatwave here in the UK and that my friends, NEVER happens! It's usually miserable even in the summer lol. Anyway, I come home dripping and irritable but seeing my baby cheers me up. I sit on the chair next to his cage with a bit of yellow pepper quite prepared for him to climb round and round the cage in frustration but not to come get it... I put it between the bars of the cage, it slips a bit so I push against it with my index finger to hold it still, I say 'come on then, come on then baby' and he comes!! I think to myself, no way will he come right up and take a bite..BUT HE DID!! I couldn't believe it-he's never eaten anything I'm touching at the same time So just thought I'd share my joy with you all and thank you for your continuing support and advice

MissK its a great idea about the contact call, I will think of a good simple whistle and give it a go.

And Skyes_crew- So good to hear its worked for Hamlet, (great name by the way) especially with him being a quiet bird!

So this weekend I will be working more on the hands thing, and hopefully soon I'll be inside the actual cage.. Dum dum duuuuummm!!
What are you all up to?

Loo X

[sanjays mummi]

I live in the UK too, Sanjay had a Spritz of water, rosewater and glycerin today,it cooled him down, and stopped him trying to cram himself into his water bowl, try Doodle with a walnut half, Sanjay adores them.

[Skyes_crew]

Heat must be the theme this weekend lol. It's hot everywhere. and of course on the weekend I'm going on holiday...ill be by the pool if you need me

[Doodlebug]

How old is Sanjay now? I've tried Doodlebug on all sorts of nuts, and dried fruit but he chucks them on the floor! He does love the fresh stuff though so I'm glad he's getting variety in his diet.

I want to try a bath! Not for me lol, I'm no soap-dodger! I'm wondering if he would know what to do... Is there some way to stop it from being tipped over? He is enjoying tossing his food pots at the moment. I think I'll look for a suitable one and see if he takes to it-he is scared of anything new in his cage right now.

[Doodlebug]

Heat must be the theme this weekend lol. It's hot everywhere. and of course on the weekend I'm going on holiday...ill be by the pool if you need me

I'm so envious I've turned green and now resemble Doodlebugs evil twin Enjoy!

[MissK]

Heat. It's Hot. Today 95 degrees F on the shaded patio outside, and a slightly (slightly!) cooler 90 degrees in the Living Room, curtains drawn. Dogs are holed up in the bedroom with a window AC unit, and the birds are doing a stint in the basement for their protection. Light's getting all screwed up down there. But they seem fine. I miss them , though. The house suddenly seems to have No Life in it with all my little darlings shut away for safety. Maybe some storms this weekend to drive off the heat.....

-MissK

[Skyes_crew]

MissK...time to get creative and make your own swamp coolers...if you can still find stores that sell blocks of ice. Place them in a cookie sheet. Pre drill the cookie sheet in the corner and attach some rubber tubing running down into a bucket. Place a fan behind the block of ice and set on high and oscillate. Voila...a homemade swamp cooler it's no AC unit, but it will help to drop the temp some. So sorry you and your birdies are suffering. Darn east coast heat waves. My sis is in NJ and she said its miserable. I spent 9 years living in Germany where they basically still live without AC. I used to black out my windows and live in the dark. I will cross my fingers for some thunderstorms to wipe out that heat for you

Loo...I don't know how much of a holiday it'll really be lol, my four girls are coming with me

[Doodlebug]

Skyes_crew, are you secretly the fifth member of the A Team?! How do you know all this stuff!

I tried Doodlebug with some pear again earlier, he came to eat when I was holding onto it

So happy

[Skyes_crew]

Skyes_crew, are you secretly the fifth member of the A Team?! How do you know all this stuff!

I tried Doodlebug with some pear again earlier, he came to eat when I was holding onto it

So happy

My mom claims its because I'm ambidextrous...I use both sides of my brain. I claim it's because I like to read and I'm curious about absolutely everything. For example...I went to university for a degree in landscape architecture...got a minor degree in botany because I became fascinated by plants and life cycles, worked for a large company for aWhile and got sucked into the engineering side and went back to school for engineering. Stayed at home with the kids for a little and worked from home for a bit. But eventually the kids and my animals overtook my whole life. Now my kids are getting older and more independent and my animals are getting more of my time and I'm giving some serious thought to going back to school again to be a DVM specializing in Avian Medicine. That would make my fourth degree lol. But it would be the degree I would cherish the most. Sometimes it just takes some time to find your calling. In the meantime, like I said, I read a lot...I surf the Internet for interesting, but useless facts, and I store them for another day. My husband thinks I'm a walking fount of useless information (shrugs) oh well...that's me

Doodlebug will be eating out of the palm of your hand in no time

[MissK]

Remember the old tv ad - "Reading is FUNdamental!"

Thanks for the MacGuyver tip. Actually, I just make a lot of excuses to "check on the dogs". They maxed out today at 84 degrees - None too shabby! Once the day cools a bit they go down to 71. (I have a smart thermometer keeping an eye on the for me.) Tomorrow's forecast a mere 95 degrees......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94NiuOViR1g

Loo, I'm so glad you found a food that gets through to Doodle. Honestly, if I had to pick Just One Tool in the Ringneck box, and live without the rest, treating by hand is the one thing I would never want to be without. When you treat by hand you have a conversation, I swear you do. You're IN, Baby!

-MissK

[Doodlebug]

So did you all survive the weekend?

Doodlebug is coming straight to me to take food through the bars now every time I have been trying to de-sensitise him to my hands by putting them on the side of the cage and sometimes putting my fingers through and giving them a little wiggle. I'm wondering at what stage do I attempt to open his cage to put hand in? He still freaks when I have my hand against the door and it moves making it sound as if I'm about to open them...

And should I expect him to flap the first time I go in and should I take hand back out if so, or leave it in?

Thanks in advance for your tips, Loo

[sanjays mummi]

Sanjay is three years old, don't bother with a bath for doodlebug, We spent a fortune on a "giant splash" and he ignores it, just fill a spray bottle with tepid water, add a few drops of edible Rosewater, and a drop of glycerine, and mist Doodle with it, Sanjay lifts his wings and btm when he sees it coming!, make sure Doodlebug is dry by bedtime, Sanjay Loves a cool blow dry from my hairdryer.

[MissK]

Hey Loo,

You're not just going to all of a sudden open up the cage and stick your hand inside. You'll do it in tiny steps, like everything else. Try just feeding through the bars and then pause, open the door, and resume as you were. Door just is open. When that's good with Doodle, you can put a finger to rest on the doorframe (the bottom). When that's good, rest the whole hand, etc.

You absolutely do NOT want to see flapping. If the bird ignores your action, he could be (1) ignoring or (2) distracted and not actually noticing. Neither of these is great, but if he doesn't see your hand and you then advance, he will get a fright when she figures it out. What you want to see is the bird looking at your hand from wherever he is, or advancing in a non-aggressive way. If he retreats, you go no further. If he shows signs of alarm, you have gone way too far too fast.

If you ever take action that causes the bird visible alarm, you must consider that you have FAILED to correctly evaluate how much he can tolerate. When you cross that threshhold, you begin working against the progress you have already made because now the bird has reason to expect you to upset him.

Balloon analogy: Think of blowing up a balloon. Here, the balloon is the bird. If you misjudge how much to blow, and you overfill the balloon, it may pop in your face. Now your balloon-filling is all wasted because you lost your air, your progress. With balloons you have to go back to square one. With birds you may not have to go back that far, but you still have to do your work over again.

See the analogy from another perspective - now you are the bird. Once the balloon unexpectedly pops in your face, will you feel some concern when you blow up the next one? Maybe hesitating to fill it so it won't pop again? Maybe you might want to avoid the balloon altogether.

If you can get behind my analogy, I hope it will show you it's better and more productive to err on the side of caution. Ultimately, balloons are subject to definite limitations, while (in theory) birds can be conditioned to accept nearly endless human behaviours over time. But they both have a breaking point.

I hope this made sense for you. I haven't had my coffee yet.

-MissK

[Doodlebug]

Hi again sanjaysmummi I must admit I have been looking at the baths, there are a lot to choose from! I used to spray my first IRN with just plain water and he also used to love standing on the sink by the taps when they were on dunking his head and wings under the stream-I don't have a shower here only a bath but I love the thought of these IRNs taking a shower with their owners! I know little Doodlebug will one day be brave enough to try these things, just wouldn't want to scare the living daylights out of him coming at him with a spray bottle at the moment-maybe when he trusts me a bit more do you think? What are the benefits of the rosewater and glycerine? Is it literally because the rosewater is tasty and the glycerine is good for the feathers? Is it ok if it goes in the eyes?

Hi MissK Thanks for your suggestions regarding the next steps to take. I didn't want to make him flap so that's good news.

The doors to his cage are really awkward, there are two of them side by side and they have a plastic thing that you have to twist to the side which is REALLY stiff so you have to fumble around making a noise, so by the time you actually have it so you can begin to slowly open them he is really freaking. Also they open inwards making a level platform for him to stand on which is a great idea but would be better if they opened outwards so it doesn't invade his personal space straight away.

Your balloon analogy was perfectly understandable thank you I would never like to alarm him, I would rather take the smallest steps to get him to trust me which will get there quicker in the long term rather than scaring him and taking three steps back again.

What do you think about use of a clicker or other noise when I treat, then moving on to target training with a stick to get him moving to certain spots in the cage in readiness for when he comes out? I have been reading up on it and it makes a lot of sense, have you tried it or know anyone that has? Obviously this doesn't get him used to my hands but it appeals to me regarding the training side

[MissK]

People do use target training and clickers, and I think they report good success. Rocky has never experienced either, in the formal sense, but since he lives with a human, and humans tend to tap things (at least this one does), he does pay attention to when things get tapped. That's a type of targeting.

You should insert the step of treating after manipulating the noisy cage lock into your routine, before the actual opening of the door. IRNs definitely will learn what sounds mean, so once he's good with that, should present no trouble.

If it's in the budget you should keep an eye out for a better cage. IRNs live too long to always be fighting a cage that's hard to use.

I love the HQ Double Flight cage, and they also make a single size. Google it.

-MissK

[Skyes_crew]

So did you all survive the weekend?

Doodlebug is coming straight to me to take food through the bars now every time I have been trying to de-sensitise him to my hands by putting them on the side of the cage and sometimes putting my fingers through and giving them a little wiggle. I'm wondering at what stage do I attempt to open his cage to put hand in? He still freaks when I have my hand against the door and it moves making it sound as if I'm about to open them...

And should I expect him to flap the first time I go in and should I take hand back out if so, or leave it in?

Thanks in advance for your tips, Loo

Back from my holiday and all birds accounted for lol. The heat was bad, but the pool felt great I missed a lot, but looks like you have everything well under control. Great job any new updates??

[Doodlebug]

Hey MissK- your advice about treating after manipulating the lock is a great idea, sometimes the things you guys suggest are so simple it makes me feel really thick for not thinking of it myself! But as I've said to another member, it really does help to get a different perspective on your situation-sort of not seeing the wood for the trees thing. I am after another cage yes, I've never really got on with this one, the size is fine but it doesn't really have the functionalities I need to get the most potential from Doodlebug. The cage you suggested looks great and just what we need, will keep my eye out when I think Doodlebug can cope with changing cages

Hi Skyes_crew-welcome back, did you have a good time? Thanks for your kind words regarding our progress, I am so happy with the way its going, such a contrast to how I was feeling when I first joined a few weeks ago and its all down to you guys suggestions and advice I decided to start using a clicker today (well a pen anyway lol) and have had a few sessions during the course of the day. Think he was wary at first, as he is when he hasn't seem something before, but when I tried again just now he eyeballed it before he took the treat and think he will soon come to associate it with getting good stuff and when I think he's ready to move on to the next step I shall start clicking first then offering the treat, hopefully then he'll start showing signs of getting excited to listen out for a click, I think that's what I'm meant to be doing..?!

Hope you are all cool and haven't melted yet!

[Skyes_crew]

I never thought to use a pen for the clicker sound...see, always room to learn something new I'm not really too schooled on clicker training. I just tap or point where I want my birds and when they go there I treat. So I guess when you incorporate the clicker it would be point, respond, click, treat. Or something like that ;)

I had a great time, thanks for asking but I missed my fids. My husband stayed home with them so they weren't with strangers. But Skye, my most attached baby, decided to stop eating on Monday so it's a good thing I came home Tuesday. I need to make him more independent lol.

[MissK]

Melissa, I don't know if you know this, but the birds are chatting on their own thread........ I bet you're going to see a boastful post from Skye about how he's training you to a curfew.......


Loo, see if you can get a book from the library or cheap from Amazon -- _Don't Shoot The Dog_ by Karen Pryor. I was actually too lazy to check my bookshelves, but I think that's one that will teach you how to get the most out of your clicker. I really wish everyone would read it.

-MissK

[Skyes_crew]

I had heard about that...ill have to have a look ;)

[InTheAir]

Hey all,
There is also heaps of good tips on Karen Pryors website, while you are waiting for the book.
I don't use a clicker, I just follow the same style. Also goodbirdinc is the same concept too.
My boyfriend promised to buy me that book for Christmas last year. . Still waiting... and I got him a brand new bird cage *sigh*

Claire

[Doodlebug]

Morning all-or is it afternoon where you are

Thought as Karen Pryor is so highly thought about here I would order the book you recommended MissK, I first looked at the reviews and one lady said that it works well with not just dogs and other animals but humans too, and in her case she was recommended it for her autistic son that has tapped into his way of thinking which is fantastic as my son is autistic too, so I'm so looking forward to what she can teach me in relation to communicating with both my babies! I say baby, he's actually 13

Well Doodlebug is now on the click first, treat after stage. BUT... Is there any way I can get him to take the treat nicely? He lunges at it! I know this is because he is probably scared still and wants it quickly, but it's not like he runs away to eat it, he sits where he is. I thought maybe its far enough away for him as he has to lean the whole way his neck stretches to lunge...I did then try holding the treat just out of his reach so he had to come get-but he still lunged lol. He is at the stage where he recognises the clicker/pen as I hold it up so he can see it so the sound doesn't take him by surprise, he knows what it is and takes the treat but I can tell he isn't 100% comfortable with the whole thing! Do you think I should not hold it where he can see? I'm sure he won't be able to hear it if I didn't provide him with the visual cue.

He now takes small things like sunflower seeds, where as a while ago he would only take bloomin great bits of pepper etc!

So pleased with how its going, and if I can do it, so can all you other guys reading this who are worried and stressing about taming your birdies-believe me, it can be done-just a whole bunch of perseverance, patience and kindness

[Skyes_crew]

I think as doodlebug gets more comfortable he won't snatch it so much. But what you can try to do is train him to take the treat a certain way. Instead of going directly at his beak with the treat hold it more down toward the perch between his feet. Then click. This kind of throws them off balance a little so he won't have the opportunity to lunge at the treat. Are you able to get in the cage door yet?

As far as him seeing the clicker...if it doesn't seem to really be stressing him I wouldn't worry about it

I'm currently looking into using Karen Pryor's training method to train my husband. Ill update with results

[MissK]

Pryor's book will teach you how to train nearly anything. I used it to train a handful of teenagers to come *running* for job assignments, even pushing each other out of the way to be first. I did this to solve our trouble at work of never being able to get any of them to come for anything. By the same token, I used the methods to train my mother not to be nasty on the phone. I confess, for her, I did also use the fairly hefty "no reward marker" of hanging up a few times..............

I also would think that if Doodle's treat was not in a lunge-able place, lunging would fade.

-MissK

[kanundra]

Aww, reading this is inspiring. My Bobby is getting so cheaky at the moment. From flying to my hand while I'm picking up stuff he wants from his cage but dropped to jumping across while we're having dinner! and robbing off my plate!

So funny but don't want him to do it all the time.



bobby has been with us three months now, and he's come such a long way. I'm really happy for him and for me.

His broken bent feathers have all started to really grown in and he's flying with amazing confidence.

[Doodlebug]

Hey all, how is everyone?

Thanks for posting Kanundra, I am so pleased to be able to share my progress with others to give them hope Your Bobby sounds adorable and I so wish my baby Doodlebug will get to that stage, I love it when they nick your food and do cheeky little things like knock objects off tables etc just so you put it back and start all over again But as you rightly say, it can get a little wearing, like having a toddler!! How old was he when you got him and was he hand reared?

Just thought I'd share whats new with you all: I started target training today after I bought a suitable stick at the weekend. First thing this morning before I changed his cage and food/water I sat down next to him with stick, clicker and treats. Not knowing if he would be afraid of the stick I held it in front of him slowly. He flapped to the other side of his cage! He came back straight away though so the lure of apple was too great I held it again but further away, and also held the clicker too. I thought it would help him realise the stick was with the clicker so it meant a good thing, and it worked like a dream. I pointed it at him, he did the natural thing and nibbled it out of curiosity. I clicked and gave him a treat. Not bad I thought, he's a clever birdie! But having several session of this today, he has started to aggressively bite the stick, lunging at it and really going for it! Now I am worried I might be starting to reward biting. I have thought about pulling the stick away before he can bite, but would this be taken as doing nothing for getting the reward?

How do you possibly get across to your IRN that he is meant to be only touching the stick with his beak and not biting? I really don't want him to start biting me when he comes out of his cage thinking it'll get him a treat!

I have tried placing both treats and stick in 'non lungable positions' but he still seems to be grabbing at it with an enthusiastic effort shall we say!!

I got Karen Pryor's book in the post today and I can't wait to devour it, Claire I am more than happy to post it to you when I've read it and taken all the info into my non bird-brain! Just say the word

When did you all start seeing your IRNs little characters developing? At what age roughly would you say they start becoming more curious about toys/foraging and becoming less fearful of new things? Or are some always like that?

[MissK]

First, make sure your bird understands that the click is a reward marker.
Then click for touching the stick, not biting it.
If the bird is already biting like a fiend, you may have to shape the bite down to a touch. If that were me, I would remove the stick for a while and hope we naturally went back to just touching, BECAUSE I'M LAZY.
Read the book.


-MissK

[sanjays mummi]

Sorry for not being here in a while, the rosewater and glycerin conditions the powdery skin, and prevents scaly foot, it doesn't hurt their eyes. Sanjay has enjoyed these showers since he was a chickster.During moulting they soothe itching, and loosen up the plumage, making it less stressful and itchy.

[InTheAir]

First, make sure your bird understands that the click is a reward marker.
Then click for touching the stick, not biting it.
If the bird is already biting like a fiend, you may have to shape the bite down to a touch. If that were me, I would remove the stick for a while and hope we naturally went back to just touching, BECAUSE I'M LAZY.
Read the book.


-MissK

You have to be quick to associate the touch with the reward!
I think the problem with targeting to a stick is that a parrot will beak any novel items to investigate it. I wonder if using a huge perch width stick would decrease this tendency in the initial stages? Has anyone considered or tried this? I can ask nila tomorrow.
Nila loved the novelty of the teeny target stick when we tried it and had so much fun hanging from it I gave up on target training. He does touch my finger of I ask and also focuses on where I'm pointing if I ask that though, so targeting is n not really needed anyway.

Regards,
Claire

[Skyes_crew]

After this whole thread I've been working with Cyrano on targeting. (Trying to be unlazy lol) But Cyrano is frightened of random sticks that aren't attached to a cage or tree lol. So I target like Claire using my finger. Take the stick you bought and draw marks a few inches apart on it. Now hold the stick across the bars of the cage. Point to one of the marks and when doodle puts his beak to the mark click and treat. Like Claire said though, you have to be quick. I found this method with Cyrano less stressful for both of us.

[Doodlebug]

Hey everyone, sorry I haven't been around-it's the schools 6 week summer holidays at the moment and I'm trying to juggle children, work and birdie!

Thanks for all your input I was doing so well with Doodlebug, he picked it up superquick and I was targeting him around the cage, but during the period of shaping the bite down to a touch (or near touch) he kinda lost the plot. I think maybe I confused him because at first I tried moving the stick away and saying 'Nicely' then putting it back til he nibbled it nicely, then he started biting again so I tried what you suggested and pulled it away before he got the chance to bite. He would taget the stick if it was close to him or a step or two away, but I couldn't get him to move any distance to it-he just say there like he couldn't be bothered!

So upon reading through Karen Pryor's book it suggested 'going back to kindergarten' where you go back to the start of training to refresh what's expected, so this is what I did. He went through the stages quickly with no fuss and I am back to using the stick and he seems more gentle this time, lets hope he will get enough enthusiasm to be led around the cage now!

I don't overtrain so he gets bored and I make sure he isn't getting too full.

I am noticing now out of the mix of seeds in his regular food, he is picking out the sunflower seeds and leaving the rest? Knowing they are the bird equivalent of a double quarter pounder with cheese I don't give him many in the first place so I can use them as treats. But he just doesn't seem interested in the other stuff! I always give him fresh fruit and veg but it's the first time he hasn't eaten the other seed. Maybe its the heat?

I will definitely try the spray when I get a suitable bottle, and hope he doesn't get stressed as it will help him cool down.