Hi all,
I'm not sure if this topic has been covered before but I wanted to ask the genetic experts if it is possible to combine whwt with lacewings (pallids)? whether it be splits or visual. I have a blue lacewing hen that has the typical markings of a blue lacewing lacewing but a complete white tail. I was told she is split whwt but I highly doubt that. She was priced as a lacewing and I have no history information so I'm not going to get my hopes up. But I do have a spare violet whwt cock as I just lost my hen for him...very sad. And since all my other pairs are working their boxes and feeding each other I thought of just pairing these two up for some blue and violet babies to hand rear and let my other whwt pairs give me some nice breeders.
So to make a long question short, is it possible to produce a whwt lacewing bird (not from this pairing but in general) and is this a desirable bird?
Thanks
sarah23 wrote:Hi all,
I'm not sure if this topic has been covered before but I wanted to ask the genetic experts if it is possible to combine whwt with lacewings (pallids)? whether it be splits or visual. I have a blue lacewing hen that has the typical markings of a blue lacewing lacewing but a complete white tail. I was told she is split whwt but I highly doubt that. She was priced as a lacewing and I have no history information so I'm not going to get my hopes up. But I do have a spare violet whwt cock as I just lost my hen for him...very sad. And since all my other pairs are working their boxes and feeding each other I thought of just pairing these two up for some blue and violet babies to hand rear and let my other whwt pairs give me some nice breeders.
So to make a long question short, is it possible to produce a whwt lacewing bird (not from this pairing but in general) and is this a desirable bird?
Thanks
In short No, not ideal to mix whwt & lacewing. (but you can, takes 3-4 years to make a bad combo)
Why?: Who would want a whwt washed out color as a lacewing?
The lacewing's downfall is the body color being so washed out that you can barely see the blue or even grey.
As far pairing the violet to your lacewing hen, . (A violet whwt ? not ideal)
I did not see whwt violet when i first read your post, if you don't have a hen for him , get one any color, even green (not INO or Lacewing).
You will get all splits for whwt, Ideally it'd be good to find a hen split for whwt.
You can pair the lacewing hen to a normal violet.
However you must remember one thing: ALL Males will be split for Lacewing.
That is important info to remember or if you sell them to tell the buyer.
Even if they don't care, they still need to know just in case they pass it on to someone else later for breeding.
No, your lacewing is not split whwt because it has a white tail
Blue series Lacewings have white tails. they look similar to whwt.
A split whwt looks like a normal bird and it is not visible to be identified as splits.
One can only tell if a bird is split to whwt by the parents, one parent had to be whwt, then all birds from that pair will be splits to whwt.
Hi, sorry I think you may have misunderstood my post. Of course I know splits are not visual etc. . I was asking more for the genetic detail for if and how pallids and cleartails could be split for each other etc. basically if it were possible for my pallid to be split at all? As i have no history. I'm only pairing as all my other ringnecks are paired for the upcoming season. And as I tend to hand raise other colours I'll just hand raise the violets and blues.
Thanks for the help next year it will be different
sarah23 wrote:Hi, sorry I think you may have misunderstood my post. Of course I know splits are not visual etc. . I was asking more for the genetic detail for if and how pallids and cleartails could be split for each other etc. basically if it were possible for my pallid to be split at all? As i have no history. I'm only pairing as all my other ringnecks are paired for the upcoming season. And as I tend to hand raise other colours I'll just hand raise the violets and blues.
Thanks for the help next year it will be different
Yes, you can have a CT cock split for Pallid and a Pallid (both sexes) split for CT. Knowing the parents of the bird in question would help you determine this
When we say that a mutation is recessive we are meaning that it is not visible to our eyes in the heterozygous form, produciong split birds. This is not a good definition. We should better say that we call a mutation recessive when the heterozygous form in a bird not carrying other mutations acting on the same pigment is not visible (split).
Split clearheads are not visible. Split pallids are not visible. Both mutations act on melanin production, and whenever a pallid bird is split for cleartail (or a clairtail bird split for pallid) I would expect a ligther phenotype telling me that the bird is carrying the other mutation. This does not mean that both mutations are alleles of the same locus. This is a epistatic phenomenon, telling us that both mutations act on the same metabolic pathway so that the presence of one of them, even as split, changes the expression of the other.
A pallid IRN does not show a white tail, and as Sarah wrote, I think that a white tail in a pallid bird could be a sign of the bird being split for cleartail (or for another mutation acting on melanin production or expression).
Farmore about this subject: I have a green /clearhead fallow/ blue male paired to a green cinnamon/blue female. They have bred 3 green and 1 blue chick. Among the 3 green chicks one of them si a bit ligther, and this is mainly visible in the tail feathers (greener respective to the normal blue). My thougth is that the ligther bird is probably double split for cinnamon and for clearhead fallow, so that the heterozygotic presence of both mutations allows them to be perceived by our eyes.
All this means that probably what we call recessive mutations are in fact incomplete dominant mutations with low expressivity.
Sarah ... could you post a pic of your pallid/cleartail?
Sarah ... could you post a pic of your pallid/cleartail?
Seriously??
They called it split cleartail because it has a white tail.
Surely we are not entertaining stone age tactics to identify mutations.
That is not a reason for you to consider that bird is in fact split for cleartail without parents info.
0% genetical proof or any proof or reason in fact.just beacuse they see how white the tail is, what a joke.
Perhaps you read the posts too fast (happends to most of us)
All my (non parblue) pallids have cleartails but i don't call them split CT.
Among the 3 green chicks one of them si a bit ligther, and this is mainly visible in the tail feathers (greener respective to the normal blue). My thougth is that the ligther bird is probably double split for cinnamon and for clearhead fallow,
Assuming the lighter bird is a male for the theory to stand.
Interesting!
