Cinnamon effect...

Carr.birds · Post by **Carr.birds** » Mon May 13, 2013 10:47 pm

Stefan

Yes, both of them are proven sf SL Edged

1,0 Dblue sf SL Edged/chf and 1,0 Dblue sf SL Edged-cinnamon

Both are 7 years old matured breeding cocks

Tienie

bennjamin · Post by **bennjamin** » Mon May 13, 2013 10:54 pm

Tiene,

Have you added violet, cobalt or violet cobalt to these in the cinnamon series ?

If so any pics .

Ben

madas · Post by **madas** » Tue May 14, 2013 1:33 am

Carr.birds wrote: 1,0 Dblue sf SL Edged /chf

For my eyes the split clearhead fallow is visible then you compare the eyes of both birds.
Your opinion?

And if both are proven sl edged (sf) then why do they Show such a light phenotype?

thx.

greetings.

Stefan

sheyd · Post by **sheyd** » Tue May 14, 2013 5:13 pm

Mada's- turns out I didn't have the program i needed it to run- so all sorted now cheers.

Well curiosity got the better of me, and her flights appear more yellowish than greenish- I unfortunately don't have any forum worthy pictures as I didn't have my son to help me out.

Still need to move her into the other aviary when its finished so will get hopefully quality shots then-actually I've never handled an aviary bred bird before- is there a good technique on how to as I don't want to stress her out?

So far having no luck finding a Cinnamon bird-at least locally- have inquired about a Violet Blue/Cinnamon cock- but haven't truly decided.

Does anyone know if Grey masks SL Edged?

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Tue May 14, 2013 5:17 pm

Does anyone know if Grey masks SL Edged?

No it does not

sheyd · Post by **sheyd** » Tue May 14, 2013 5:19 pm

Ring0Neck wrote:
Does anyone know if Grey masks SL Edged?

No it does not

Ben, would you know where i can find a picture of a Grey SL Edged?

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Tue May 14, 2013 6:07 pm

http://www.mcw-indianringnecks.com.au/global-aviaries/
it's Tienie's grey edged birds i believe

trabots · Post by **trabots** » Tue May 14, 2013 8:28 pm

Can we get comparison images of SL Edged and Dominant Edged in the same colour? I didn't think SL Edged was in Oz. The Dom Edged has been here for decades known as 'fallow', cocks of which were supposedly all split Cinnamon. From what I can see the SL Edged has much more going for it as far as patterns on the wings, back etc.

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Tue May 14, 2013 8:44 pm

Willy,

SL Edged and Dominant Edged

dom edged is => SL dom edged
How i understand the edged situation:
As far as i know most breeders have mostly Dominant SL edged,
OZ breeders had edged with cinnamon (must have been imported like that) becuase of that breeders were confused due to SL & dominant they eliminated it from breeding program and thought cinnamon is part of the mutation somehow and believed it is was not possible to separate the 2 mutations.
Oz breeders called it fallow, which explains how much they understood this mutation.
there is a rec. edged, if anybody has it please put your hand up.
i believe all the discussions we've had re edged (and pics) were all about sl dom edged.

trabots · Post by **trabots** » Tue May 14, 2013 11:27 pm

Ben, how about a lesson on the inheritance mechanics of SL Dominant? How is this different than just SL? The cock colors hens in a dominant fashion however the cock attains his colour in a recessive manner.

I had a 'fallow' Blue and a 'fallow' Cinnamon Grey Green for many years. I didn't bother breeding them as other than the markings on the flights and slightly less 'brightness' than in the Blue I couldn't see the attraction. Now I see these gorgeous SL Edged birds on this forum and I know what I had is not the same as these.

madas · Post by **madas** » Tue May 14, 2013 11:40 pm

@Tienie:

Why do both males show such a light phenotype (it is not uncommmon for the cinnamon one, but not for bird without cinnamon)?
Any other Mutation involved?

Attached please find a german sl Edged Dblue which is supposed to be split for cinnamon. But he has visible pinkish feet and light nails. So do you think he is a visual cinnamon too or is it possible to detect sl edged birds split for cinnamon by feet color?
Furthermore he isn't that light as Tienies normal non cinnamon sl Edged Dblue. Why?

thx.

greetings.

madas

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Wed May 15, 2013 12:07 am

hmmmm - I'm sensing an attitude here Willy.

Ben, how about a lesson on the inheritance mechanics of SL Dominant? How is this different than just SL? The cock colors hens in a dominant fashion however the cock attains his colour in a recessive manner.

A: DF in males

Johan S · Post by **Johan S** » Wed May 15, 2013 12:43 am

I have seen quite a lot of variation in the amount of edging in the SL dom. edged birds. That could also play a role. And Tienie is sitting with some of the better marked SF SL com. edge cocks. The edging are more pronounced, and the body colour a bit more diluted. Has anyone noticed whether the edging increases with age?

sheyd · Post by **sheyd** » Wed May 15, 2013 4:15 am

Ben thanks for the link- is different to what I was expecting.

Johan- I'm glad you brought this up- from what I researched about this mutation in the last few days, there does seem to be a great deal of difference between two exact genotypes- why are we seeing such variation? Some I wouldn't know if they were or not unless I was told. So the barring down the tail is only one of the indicating factors - do they all have rachus- some pics I couldn't make it out (so don't know). This bird believe it or not, was sold to me as a Green Cinnamon- and I believed it to be- it was only until the next day I noticed a blueish tinted tail with barbs and started to wonder what was up with it. I have never seen one before and didn't know how to identify- I must say after now owning one, they are a thing of beauty.

trabots · Post by **trabots** » Wed May 15, 2013 5:00 am

I'm sensing an attitude here Willy.

No attitude Ben, that is what I thought. Terry doesn't cover it in his book is why I asked. Following then, what are the birds we have been looking at? Bastiaan suggests that the hens express the mutation better than cocks. We would then also have sf Edged and df Edged males. Have these been identified? My two 'fallows' were probably sf males so not as nice.

Johan S · Post by **Johan S** » Wed May 15, 2013 5:21 am

trabots wrote:
I'm sensing an attitude here Willy.
No attitude Ben, that is what I thought. Terry doesn't cover it in his book is why I asked. Following then, what are the birds we have been looking at? Bastiaan suggests that the hens express the mutation better than cocks. We would then also have sf Edged and df Edged males. Have these been identified? My two 'fallows' were probably sf males so not as nice.

Hi Willy, yes you are right. Hens would express the mutation better and in the same way as homozygous edged cocks. Heterozygous cocks are not nearly as well marked/edged, and it seems as if there are some variation. Admittedly, Tienie is sitting on a strain where the cocks show significant edging, better than in the example below. Most likely also why this son is appearing much darker than the previous dark blues. Still wonder if age plays a role, though. Have a look at the two pics below, both cobalt birds, a mother and her son, so they have to carry the same mutant gene. The expression is very different. Homozygous cocks are actually rather rare.

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Wed May 15, 2013 5:23 am

what are the birds we have been looking at?

Tienie is the one that has most experience & Madas.
I have kept back 2 1/2 edged pairs
One is mature breeders: df turq sf edged/cinn male X silver df turq edged hen
a df turq df edged cinn male X blue edged hen
and a violet to the pied hen

See pics:
(4mb file)
http://parakeet.me/irn/f/edge/3edged.jpg

a df turq silver edged hen? unsexed (don't have it anymore)
http://parakeet.me/irn/f/edge/edgegreydf.jpg

You can also download them & zoom in.

PS Johan, we must have been writing at the same time.

Still wonder if age plays a role, though

from the stock i have i say very possible. look at my df turq edged, clear cut edgeing.
don't know his age but i had young 3 y old from him (bred by original breeder) so 5 y o +
his 2 y old son in 1st pic left.
(the older pair i know both are df turq. coz i have 2 df turq hens from them same clutch 2 y olds (breeder had more all df turq but they were sold off)
http://parakeet.me/irn/f/dfturquoise.jpg

Carr.birds · Post by **Carr.birds** » Wed May 15, 2013 8:18 am

Stefan

Light contrast between my pic and yours. I will search my folders for other pics and post it.

Dblue SL Edged-cinnamon

Violet blue buttercup & 'SA deep' blue SL Edged

Dblue SL Edged

Stefan if you compare all these pics you will understand what I mean. With the naked eye the Dblue SL Edged is darker compared to Dblue SL Edged-cinnamon but not a lot. I would say <5% difference. The 'SA Deep' blue SL Edged is lighter compared to Dblue SL Edged.

You get good quality Edged cocks and bad marked birds. I think you can compare it with opaline's . Not all them well marked. Suppose almost the same as ADM pied (minor and major)

A good example of a violet blue opaline

These are my thought and observations based on breeding results and experience.

Tienie

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Wed May 15, 2013 8:25 am

A violet cinn edged for comparisson (not a dblue but close enough)
http://parakeet.me/irn/f/edge/edgedviong.jpg

*I think Madas said something important. The feet color, pinkish for cinn edged and whitish? for edged?
Tienie, what's your take ?
Nice vio opaline

Carr.birds · Post by **Carr.birds** » Wed May 15, 2013 9:31 am

Ben. Madas & Johan

Ben I can live with Stefan's statement about the colour of their feet

Father

Daughter

The above hen was bred from the Dblue SL Edged-cinnamon cock and an American violet blue hen. Do you think she is just violet blue SL Edged-cinnamon or violet dblue SL Edged-cinnamon. I have paired her with my 'SA Deep' blue SL Edged cock for 2013. See pic below

Opinions welcome

Tienie

madas · Post by **madas** » Wed May 15, 2013 10:06 am

Carr.birds wrote:
Daughter

The above hen was bred from the Dblue SL Edged-cinnamon cock and an American violet blue hen. Do you think she is just violet blue SL Edged-cinnamon or violet dblue SL Edged-cinnamon.

Hi Tienie,

thx for Clearing up.

Regarding the "Daughter". She Shows a very saturated violetblue. So my vote is for sl Edged-cinnamon violet Dblue.

Regarding the feet Color: Have you noticed the lighter feets for proven split cinnamon birds too?

madas

Carr.birds · Post by **Carr.birds** » Wed May 15, 2013 10:35 am

Willy & Ben

SL Edged can only be judged when matured (4 to 5 years)

Willy if you look at the comparison pic of an indigo bronze fallow and indigo SL Edged you can understand why breeders in the 90's named it fallow.

df SL Edged blue (proven)

df SL Edged dblue

df SL Edged greygreen (proven)

Tienie

trabots · Post by **trabots** » Wed May 15, 2013 5:26 pm

Thanks for the education. From the mature hens and df cocks that have been posted it again seems that the mutation was named before the full expression was bred. The mutation does much more than just 'edge' the flights and tails as in sf males. There is an overall dilution with parts like the face left better coloured. I am now a believer.

What other mutations are dominant sex linked??

trabots · Post by **trabots** » Wed May 15, 2013 7:35 pm

Tienie, is it the norm for only Blue series birds to be diluted? The image of the DF SL Edged Grey Green seems full colour. Also it doesn't seem to have near the expression that some of the other birds have, it looks like a SF based on the information.

Carr.birds · Post by **Carr.birds** » Wed May 15, 2013 9:37 pm

Willy

Your opinion about the df SL Edged greygreen will change when you see a sf SL Edged greygreen. It is very close to a normal greygreen in phenotype. Will post pics this afternoon

Tienie

madas · Post by **madas** » Wed May 15, 2013 10:43 pm

trabots wrote: What other mutations are dominant sex linked??

There is no other dominant sex-linked mutation in IRN. The "same" Mutation exists in the Lineolated Parrot formely know as "greywing".

btw: sl Edged is also know as Dom. dilute Edged. But dilute isn't a right Name at all because it removes 80-90% of melanins. And this isn't seen in sl Edged birds.

madas

Johan S · Post by **Johan S** » Wed May 15, 2013 11:23 pm

madas wrote:btw: sl Edged is also know as Dom. dilute Edged. But dilute isn't a right Name at all because it removes 80-90% of melanins. And this isn't seen in sl Edged birds.

madas

Not only that, it also causes confusion between the edged birds and the combination between edged and dilute that seems to be getting quite popular in SA.

Willy, I don't think the name edged is completely wrong. The full expression of the mutation in hens still shows edging in the flight feathers.

sheyd · Post by **sheyd** » Wed May 15, 2013 11:28 pm

Ben- I sent you a pm

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Wed May 15, 2013 11:32 pm

Tienie's pic of grey-green sf SL edged
It is the young greygreen 2nd from the right next to the Lutino hen.

http://parakeet.me/irn/f/edge/carrsGreygrnedge.JPG

Johan S · Post by **Johan S** » Wed May 15, 2013 11:46 pm

Does anybody have pics of a SF SL dom. edged green cock and an edged green hen?

madas · Post by **madas** » Thu May 16, 2013 12:56 am

Carr.birds wrote: df SL Edged blue (proven)

I guess it is the right bird in the first pic.

The left one is it one of your dom. pieds???

Stefan

Carr.birds · Post by **Carr.birds** » Thu May 16, 2013 1:10 am

Stefan

100% as spotted. I originally paired them in 2012 but then decided to pair her with the df violet blue cock, but it is eating me up if I think what the combination will look like.

BTW I think SL Edged is the correct name

Tienie

Johan S · Post by **Johan S** » Thu May 16, 2013 1:45 am

Thanks for the pic of the green edged, Tienie.

madas · Post by **madas** » Thu May 16, 2013 3:47 am

Hi Tienie,

the pics of your sl Edged (df) blue and sl Edged green males Show light feets nad nails too. So did they procude any cinnamon offspring???
regarding the dom. pied female: She is very light nearly complete White. Is it a ef or df dom. pied?

thx in advance.

Stefan

PS: I only want to be sure that it is marker for identifying cinnamon in the sl Edged series.

Carr.birds · Post by **Carr.birds** » Thu May 16, 2013 4:50 am

Stefan

dom pied = sf only. Unlucky in 2012 when paired to the df violet blue only 2,0 violet dblue and 0,1 violet blue. Not a single dom pied.

the green sl edged cock is /pied/turq/cinn? = didn't breed any cinnamon hens in 12 babies but those yellow sl edged adm pieds and I suspect are sl edged-cinnamon adm pied.

df sl edged greygreen = difficult to tell if he is cinnamon or /cinnamon because all babies are sf sl edged. Don't think he is cinnamon, to dark for cinnamon. Didn't keep his babies of 2011 & 2012

Tienie

Farzz1 · Post by **Farzz1** » Thu May 16, 2013 7:11 am

Hi All
I do have some interesting pics of my dom edge however they look different that the ones posted in this forum
Can anybody help me post them?
Many thanks

madas · Post by **madas** » Thu May 16, 2013 8:11 am

Farzz1 wrote:Hi All
I do have some interesting pics of my dom edge however they look different that the ones posted in this forum
Can anybody help me post them?
Many thanks

Send them to me and i will upload them for you.

mada_s(at)ymail.com (replace (at) with @)

trabots · Post by **trabots** » Thu May 16, 2013 10:20 pm

I should have finished reading all of Deon's book, there is a chapter on Edged mutations but still have the following questions:

Are Blue series birds always 'bleached' far more than Greens. Are the variations confined to the cocks? Can a sf Edged cock look like a df Edged cock or have the same expression of an Edged hen?

There are images here (Tienie's DF Edged Blue) and in Deon's book of Edged birds which clearly have pied type feathers ie: localised loss of melanin or more to the point remnants of full colour left in places and un-bleached heads, like a DF Dom Pied.

Is Edged in fact sex-linked at all? A SL Edged hen bred to a non-Edged cock will breed 100% sf Edged cocks and nil Edged hens. Has this been confirmed 100%?

In sex-linked mutations in general, are coloured hens correctly called homozygous?

Johan S · Post by **Johan S** » Fri May 17, 2013 12:20 am

trabots wrote:Are the variations confined to the cocks? Can a sf Edged cock look like a df Edged cock or have the same expression of an Edged hen?

Hi Willy, I have seen some variation in cocks, but never a SF edged cock that comes close to the expression of an edged hen. I'm not saying it is impossible, though. However, I also think that the combination with cinnamon plays a role that shouldn't be forgotten/taken into account. And if edged shows variety, then when combined with cinnamon, that variety will come through again to rapidly increase the different phenotypes.

trabots wrote:s Edged in fact sex-linked at all? A SL Edged hen bred to a non-Edged cock will breed 100% sf Edged cocks and nil Edged hens. Has this been confirmed 100%?

Although our offspring numbers aren't nearly as high as Tienie's, this has been our experience.

Recio · Post by **Recio** » Fri May 17, 2013 1:40 am

trabots wrote:In sex-linked mutations in general, are coloured hens correctly called homozygous?

Hi Willy : mutated females in sex-linked mutations are called hemizygous (not homozygous or heterozygous).

A sex linked mutation can be recessive (only expressed in females and homozygous males, ex: SL-ino) or dominant. If dominant it can be:
1. Completelly dominant (true dominant) : hemizygous females, heterozygous males and homozygous males show the same phenotype.
2. Incomplete dominant: homozygous males and hemizygous females show the same phenotype. Heterozygous males are mid-way between the wild and the completelly mutated phenotype.

This is just theory. My question: what would be your conclusion if the hemizygous females were different than the homozygous males in a dominant sex linked mutation?

Regards to everybody

Recio

madas · Post by **madas** » Fri May 17, 2013 2:00 am

trabots wrote: Is Edged in fact sex-linked at all? A SL Edged hen bred to a non-Edged cock will breed 100% sf Edged cocks and nil Edged hens. Has this been confirmed 100%?

A german breeder in last year only got edged males from a pair non-edged male x edged female. This season only edged male offspring and non-edged female offspring from same pair.

madas

Johan S · Post by **Johan S** » Fri May 17, 2013 3:29 am

madas wrote:
trabots wrote: Is Edged in fact sex-linked at all? A SL Edged hen bred to a non-Edged cock will breed 100% sf Edged cocks and nil Edged hens. Has this been confirmed 100%?
A german breeder in last year only got males from a pair non-edged male x edged female. This season only edged male offspring and non-edged female offspring from same pair.

madas

Stefan, I assume you meant only got edged males?

madas · Post by **madas** » Fri May 17, 2013 4:31 am

Johan S wrote:
madas wrote:
trabots wrote: Is Edged in fact sex-linked at all? A SL Edged hen bred to a non-Edged cock will breed 100% sf Edged cocks and nil Edged hens. Has this been confirmed 100%?
A german breeder in last year only got males from a pair non-edged male x edged female. This season only edged male offspring and non-edged female offspring from same pair.

madas
Stefan, I assume you meant only got edged males?

Correct.

Have edited it.

madas · Post by **madas** » Fri May 17, 2013 4:50 am

Pics of Farzz1:

madas · Post by **madas** » Fri May 17, 2013 4:52 am

Pics of Tartan (Kevin):

trabots · Post by **trabots** » Fri May 17, 2013 6:47 am

what would be your conclusion if the hemizygous females were different than the homozygous males in a dominant sex linked mutation?

mutation specific dimorphism ???

Recio · Post by **Recio** » Fri May 17, 2013 12:59 pm

trabots wrote:
what would be your conclusion if the hemizygous females were different than the homozygous males in a dominant sex linked mutation?
mutation specific dimorphism ???

Let´s reformulate the question: what would be your conclusion if the hemizygous females were different than the homozygous males before adulthood in a dominant sex linked mutation?

Recio

Farzz1 · Post by **Farzz1** » Fri May 17, 2013 1:14 pm

Hi
I have concluded that the dominant edge has indeed altered the physical look and appearance of the bird i.e. by bleaching, darkening and leaving some looking like spangles but I have also noticed that the change is not constant for the specific dominant edge mutation, what would bring about the change and continuous variation within this mutation?
Does this mutation contribute directly or indirectly to a spangle mutation or does it have an unlocking effect when paired differently? That could produce spangle looking mutations?
And conclusively what does contribute to lightning and darkening effect as displayed in the array of pic’s as one can clearly see the edging effect and the other a bi-coloured flight and a significant edging? Uploaded by Madas for me thanks you are a star!!!

How does one angle this accordingly? In view of the true characterises of a dominant edge and it’s unlocking potential when paired to other dominant mutations and dominant colours ?
Thanks

trabots · Post by **trabots** » Fri May 17, 2013 7:24 pm

what would be your conclusion if the hemizygous females were different than the homozygous males before adulthood in a dominant sex linked mutation?

Recio, as is my way, I wouldn't make any conclusions before the birds were mature. In any event I am interested in your answer to your question.

sheyd · Post by **sheyd** » Sat May 25, 2013 12:11 am

not the best pics, but based on everything in this thread- I'm assuming newest one is a male? Thanks Ben for helping to identify him

(looks like it's getting a hint of a ring, however it is pale beige-grey if it is)