Visual Difference between Blue Lacewing & Sky Blue Lacewing?

willowisp71 · Post by **willowisp71** » Thu Nov 01, 2012 2:46 am

Hi All,

Just wondering if someone can explain...or better yet - post pics! - of the visual differences between a blue lacewing and a sky blue lacewing - preferably females in both??

I only ask, because I think there are some (novice?) breeders here in WA that are misinterpreting colour mutations. I've searched the forum already, but haven't yet found photographic differences posted. I also checked out http://www.thomasriver.co.za/ringnecks/ but got a bit confused with some of the mutation names??

ie, lime = lacewing??

Also, I was of the understanding that skyblue = blue cinnamon?

Thanking you all in advance

sheyd · Post by **sheyd** » Thu Nov 01, 2012 7:54 pm

I see birds wrongly described all the time...lol Don't have any pics- but google images should have plenty. Yes, Sky Blue is now known as Cinnamon Blue. btw- Lacewing is an old term- the new term is Pallid. Hope this helps.

willowisp71 · Post by **willowisp71** » Thu Nov 01, 2012 10:10 pm

Hi Chocobo,

Lol! Thanks for that. And yes, I'm aware that pallid is the new term for lacewing......yet no one here in my vicinity is willing to give up the term

I have used Google extensively trying to find pics that will show me the difference, but unfortunately the google search will throw up all kinds of 'blue' mutation IRNs, regardless of whether they be blue cinnamon, normal blue, turquoise blue, parblue.....frustrating! And the same thing......people labelling a normal blue bird as a sky blue, and the like. It is why I have asked here, in the hopes that the more knowledgeable breeders might better be able to answer my question

willowisp71 · Post by **willowisp71** » Thu Nov 01, 2012 10:52 pm

Ok, so if this is a BLUE pallid (lacewing)..........

http://www.indianringneck.net/sitebuild ... 29x334.jpg

......then what would a SKY blue pallid (lacewing) look like?

McmillanBirds · Post by **McmillanBirds** » Thu Nov 01, 2012 11:41 pm

Hi

I honestly don't believe there is a heck of a difference between the too-maybe just slightly lighter perhaps.
I have a pair that is meant to have blue pallid, blue pallid cinnamon and blue pallidinos.Of the 2 pallids, if i have gotten of both colours, I can't tell the difference when they are young- maybe it leans to look as light as a blue pallidino.

I don't know the history of the birds, so I am not sure whether the cockbird got the cinnamon and pallid from 1 parent or from both but here is the breakdown:

With coming from 1 from father, 1 from mother:

1.0 blue /cinnamon pallid
x 0.1 blue ino
% from all 1.0
48.5% 1.0 blue /cinnamon ino
1.5% 1.0 blue /ino
48.5% 1.0 blue pallidIno
1.5% 1.0 blue pallidIno /cinnamon
% from all 0.1
48.5% 0.1 blue pallid
48.5% 0.1 blue cinnamon
1.5% 0.1 blue
1.5% 0.1 blue pallid cinnamon

Both from father or mother:

1.0 blue /cinnamon-pallid
x 0.1 blue ino
% from all 1.0
1.5% 1.0 blue /cinnamon ino
48.5% 1.0 blue /ino
1.5% 1.0 blue pallidIno
48.5% 1.0 blue pallidIno /cinnamon
% from all 0.1
1.5% 0.1 blue pallid
1.5% 0.1 blue cinnamon
48.5% 0.1 blue
48.5% 0.1 blue pallid cinnamon

The results if swopped around for each respectively work out the same.

Regards
Carmen

Lushen1600 · Post by **Lushen1600** » Thu Nov 01, 2012 11:47 pm

Hi Willowisp, here is a description of what the pallid gene does to a mutation and what to look out for as found on the following website

http://home.wanadoo.nl/psittaculaworld/ ... rameri.htm

Pallid

Inheritance: Sex-linked recessive.

Description

Body: Looks somewhat like cinnamon however without the brownish tinge; visible wing markings.
Tail: As Cinnamon without the brownish tinge.
Head: Yellow or White, brighter around the beak; neck ring grey with rose or white in cocks.
Beak/Feet: Red upper and lower mandible; light feet, light nails.
Eyes: Darkred with yellowish iris.

And below is a description of what cinnamon does to a mutation and what to look out for

Cinnamon

Inheritance: Sex-linked recessive.

Description

Body: General lighter; washed with brownish tinge.
Tail: Lighter with brownish tinge and lighter tip.
Head: Body color, brighter around the beak; neck ring darkbrown with rose or white in cocks.
Beak/Feet: Red upper mandible, brownish lower mandible; pinkish feet, light coloured nails.
Eyes: Darkred with yellowish iris.

As for pics that will be difficult to obtain unless breeders on here have a blue cinnamon pallid and share with us, then you will be able to identify such a mutation, I do have thoughts of what to look for but will wait for others to reply

rod038 · Post by **rod038** » Fri Nov 02, 2012 12:05 am

I would imagine it would be an almost white bird, alot lighter than just a Lacewing. I had a Cinnamon Grey Lacewing and it was almost white. Not a good combination in my opinion.

Cinnamon Grey Lacewing Hen

http://i1104.photobucket.com/albums/h32 ... ingHen.jpg

willowisp71 · Post by **willowisp71** » Fri Nov 02, 2012 12:22 am

Thanks Rod, Lushen and Carmen! That actually helps quite a bit, although I understand that the differences won't be as glaring as say between just a normal blue and a sky blue, (without the pallid being involved).

My biggest problem I think is that the term "sky blue" is being thrown around far too loosely in my area......I think in most cases these people actually only have standard blues or standard blue lacewings, but have somehow got the wrong end of the stick, and are using sky blue to describe their birds. Most people associate the word 'sky blue' with a lovely bright sunny shade of blue, which is where I think the confusion is coming in.......

Thanks again for your help and advice

McmillanBirds · Post by **McmillanBirds** » Fri Nov 02, 2012 12:58 am

cinnamon blue

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

ordinary blue

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

McmillanBirds · Post by **McmillanBirds** » Fri Nov 02, 2012 1:00 am

and in a batch of my babies
2nd one normal blue, last one cinnamon blue

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Also notice how the 2 pallids are different shades. The 1st one is darker while the other is lighter.

The one that was hiding behind was a normal blue baby too

rod038 · Post by **rod038** » Fri Nov 02, 2012 12:24 pm

I understand what you are saying as I see the wrong names used quite often. In most cases it is just a misunderstanding. I still use the Lacewing and Pastel names as most people do in Australia.

I here alot of people say they have got an Olive Ringneck which would most times be a Grey Green. Its the problem of naming colours by what they look like and not how they are formed. The problem is that mutations can react differently in each Species and so you could have a Sky Blue in a Budgie or a Sky Blue in a Ringneck, both the same name but both are a combination of different mutations.

willowisp71 · Post by **willowisp71** » Fri Nov 02, 2012 11:02 pm

Carmen - thanks so much for the pics you uploaded! That's awesome, and yes I can see the differences, sometimes obvious, sometimes only slightly different shades

Rod - I think you've hit the nail on the head in reference to the budgie mutations and the IRN mutations....I believe this is probably the root of most of the problem, where (some of) the breeders have begun with breeding budgies ad wiero's, and have then got into IRNs at a later date, and are just transferring some of the colour names over to the IRNs, mixed in with what the get told by the person they originally bought their birds from! At least now I have a bit of a reference guide from Carmen's photo's, and be able to recognise the difference when I come across them

willowisp71 · Post by **willowisp71** » Fri Nov 02, 2012 11:15 pm

Also, Carmen.....the third and forth pics you posted....are they of a normal blue cock and cinnamon blue hen?

And what were the parents of the babies in the sixth pic? Or are some of the chicks from different parents?

Thanks

Youngspud · Post by **Youngspud** » Sun Nov 04, 2012 12:23 am

When I got my latest IRN I had the option of a blue lacewing and a sky-blue lacewing, they were both in the same flight and were noticeably different, the blue in the sky-blue LW is barely visible compared to the blue LW, both are equally attractive and they are very similar but there is a distinct difference in the shades.

sahhbear · Post by **sahhbear** » Sun Nov 04, 2012 1:26 am

Thank you SO much for asking this Willowisp. I wanted to ask this but didn't quite know HOW to!!!

You've all just helped me finally figure out what colour Rani is thank you!!

willowisp71 · Post by **willowisp71** » Sun Nov 04, 2012 5:46 am

Thanks for the info, Youngspud!

LOL! No worries Sahhbear! So what have you decided your IRN is?

McmillanBirds · Post by **McmillanBirds** » Mon Nov 05, 2012 12:15 am

Hi Deb

That is a normal blue cock bird paired to a turquoise blue cinnamon hen.

The babies all came from the 1 pair. She is an excellent mom. Its the pair I gave a breakdown of in the 1st post I did for your link. Although have been working it out and the male must have got his splits from 1 parent so the results for that pair are:

1.0 blue /cinnamon-pallid
x 0.1 blue ino
% from all 1.0
1.5% 1.0 blue /cinnamon ino
48.5% 1.0 blue /ino
1.5% 1.0 blue pallidIno
48.5% 1.0 blue pallidIno /cinnamon
% from all 0.1
1.5% 0.1 blue pallid
1.5% 0.1 blue cinnamon
48.5% 0.1 blue
48.5% 0.1 blue pallid cinnamon

Regards
Carmen

sahhbear · Post by **sahhbear** » Mon Nov 05, 2012 12:27 am

Well now, I'll never be certain but my bird looks exactly like the blue cinnamon in the pics McMillan posted.... right down to the greenish parts on his wings and head!

McmillanBirds · Post by **McmillanBirds** » Mon Nov 05, 2012 12:35 am

Then your bird is probably a turquoise blue cinnamon. Do you have pics sahhbear?

sahhbear · Post by **sahhbear** » Mon Nov 05, 2012 12:49 am

I do! But I'm not allowed to post them yet for spam reasons... Something about 10 posts and 5 days? I should be able to post them tomorrow though

willowisp71 · Post by **willowisp71** » Mon Nov 05, 2012 3:10 am

Thanks so much for the breakdown, Carmen....it all helps with my trying to learn all the different mutations and how to use the calculator

Sahhbear - can't wait to see pics of your bird

sahhbear · Post by **sahhbear** » Tue Nov 06, 2012 12:51 am

Okay.... Today is day five so here goes- everyone, meet Rani

I hope these work!!

It's difficult to tell in the pictures but he has an olivey hue to his feathers around his wings and on top of his head and his chest is a very, very pale blue. I love the cheeky sod either way :lol:either way

willowisp71 · Post by **willowisp71** » Tue Nov 06, 2012 4:42 am

Oh wow! He/she IS very light coloured! In the second picture you posted he/she almost looks like a blue pallid, but yes, I see what you mean about the green tinge on his/her wings

What a pretty birdie he/she is though

willowisp71 · Post by **willowisp71** » Tue Nov 06, 2012 4:44 am

McmillanBirds wrote:Then your bird is probably a turquoise blue cinnamon. Do you have pics sahhbear?

Carmen - Turquoise blue pallid maybe?? Such a definite line between the head and body colour......???

willowisp71 · Post by **willowisp71** » Tue Nov 06, 2012 5:43 am

Lushen1600 wrote:Hi Willowisp, here is a description of what the pallid gene does to a mutation and what to look out for as found on the following website

http://home.wanadoo.nl/psittaculaworld/ ... rameri.htm

Pallid

Inheritance: Sex-linked recessive.

Description
*
Eyes: Darkred with yellowish iris.

And below is a description of what cinnamon does to a mutation and what to look out for

Cinnamon

Inheritance: Sex-linked recessive.

Description
*
Eyes: Darkred with yellowish iris.

As for pics that will be difficult to obtain unless breeders on here have a blue cinnamon pallid and share with us, then you will be able to identify such a mutation, I do have thoughts of what to look for but will wait for others to reply

Hi Lushen - I just went and re-read this post and noticed the description of both pallid's and cinnamon's say that both mutations produce DARK RED eyes...??? Is this without fail? Are there no instances of pallids or cinnamons having black eyes? Thanks for your input

sahhbear · Post by **sahhbear** » Tue Nov 06, 2012 5:53 am

Thanks Deb!

I have no idea what Rani is- I call him a he even though I'm not sure yet if Rani is a boy or a girl. I have no information on his parents but I know about the other birds in his clutch. There was another blue much darker than Rani, a green bird, a yellow and a white. I have no idea what this says about his parents other than they must have ino in there somewhere to get the white baby? At least I think (I'm new to the genetic/mutation) IF they're even the parents of all the birds.... seems quite an eclectic mix?

Sarah xx

McmillanBirds · Post by **McmillanBirds** » Tue Nov 06, 2012 11:22 pm

Hi Sarah

Does your baby show any signs of yellow in it? or is it just the light blue with olive tinge? If it has yellow in it too then it could be turquoise bue pallid aka rainbow. But no yellow would mean a normal cinnamon turquoise blue. In some lights my hen looks like she has an almost white head with a green wash through it.

Deb, that cinnamon blue baby from the pic was born with dark red eyes. I thought it would be a blue pallid, then when the pins started to show under the skin and when they came out they were too dark to be pallid. The eyes gradually got darker until they looked black(maybe just very very very dark red).

I have noticed that not all cinnamons have dark red eyes. I have cinn greens being born with 'black' eyes, but their toenails are a 'flesh'/very light grey colour.

Hope that helps
Carmen

sahhbear · Post by **sahhbear** » Wed Nov 07, 2012 3:42 am

Hi Carmen!
Both of his wings have been clipped but I just fanned them out and had a look! I don't think he's a rainbow but I'll have to wait and see. I guess his colour will only get more prominent as he ages? He definitely has black eyes though that pin a light blue/grey colour!

Thanks for all your help, I really appreciate it

sheyd · Post by **sheyd** » Wed Nov 07, 2012 4:34 pm

when they say "red eyes" I believe they're talking about the pupil-not the iris- am I correct in thinking this?

willowisp71 · Post by **willowisp71** » Wed Nov 07, 2012 10:47 pm

Hi chocobo,
Yes you are correct, they are talking about the pupil either being black, red or dark red

Hi Carmen,
thanks for the info regarding cinnamon colored eyes being red or black. I have met my baby grey cinnamon and she definitely has black pupils not dark red, but yes, she also has very light coloured toenails as well

smick · Post by **smick** » Fri Nov 09, 2012 3:07 am

Interesting topic, the first blue lacewing hen that I bought is quite pale in colour even when she matured . I have a pair male turquoise blue pallid to normal blue hen and all blue pallid hens from them have been a darker blue from the the original hen even in the nest. Another pair turquoise blue/pallid to creamino hen , the blue pallid hen in their nest is also more darker then the original hen.maybe the first hen is sky blue pallid?, she is a paler colour then all the blue pallidhens that I have bred over 3 seasons .

McmillanBirds · Post by **McmillanBirds** » Fri Nov 09, 2012 3:36 am

Hi Smick
There is a good possibility. What was she paired to? And what colour chicks did u get from them?

smick · Post by **smick** » Fri Nov 09, 2012 11:53 pm

Carmen,she is paired to green pallidino cock and this was their first season together,2 green pallid chicks and 1lutino /blue hen, hanks smick.

McmillanBirds · Post by **McmillanBirds** » Mon Nov 12, 2012 2:16 am

Hi Smick

With that pairing we sadly don't get to see the cinnamon come out in the babies, unless he is split for cinnamon somewhere down the tree, but if someone used the male babies for breeding in future they may see it come out

sahhbear · Post by **sahhbear** » Tue Nov 13, 2012 11:34 pm

Hi guys,

Haven't got any recent pics but Rani's colours are changing again the olive is becoming even more pronounced and he is getting some around his eyes and at the feathers around his feet now too. No yellow yet but I wouldn't be surprised!

sheyd · Post by **sheyd** » Thu Nov 15, 2012 10:04 pm

Sarah- I agree with the other poster who said your bird looked like a Turquoise Blue Cinnamon (aka pastel sky blue if you're not familiar with the new terms)

sahhbear · Post by **sahhbear** » Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:19 am

I know this was ages ago we were talking about this, but I took Rani to the vet for a general health check the other day and the vet has confirmed that he is a sky blue- otherwise known as a rainbow. He's going through his first molt at the moment so his feather colourings change daily. Just thought I'd let you know you were all right

sheyd · Post by **sheyd** » Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:39 am

Hi Sahhbear- a 'skyblue' is actually a Cinnamon Blue, while a 'rainbow' is a Turquoiseblue Pallid

sahhbear · Post by **sahhbear** » Thu Feb 21, 2013 5:49 am

Lord!!! That's so confusing hahaha

I said to the vet "ohhhh I thought he was a pallid?" and he said well some people call them that you may also hear rainbow (then he said something else which I forget) but your guy is a sky blue. So that's just confused me even more now! Thanks for the clarification chocobo!!

willowisp71 · Post by **willowisp71** » Fri May 17, 2013 2:11 am

Hi all, have only just caught up on this thread, as I've been away for a few months (from the forum).
Sahhbear, I will have to do a search if the forum to see if you have posted anymore pics of Rani?

Just an update on my FID situation - the cinnamon grey hen we were waiting on being weaned got very sick and didn't make it, so we ended up sourcing another hen from a different breeder. We ended up with Pepper, a SF violetblue, and we love her to bits (even though she can be quite naughty at times!). Although she was not hand-raised, we have made quite good progress with both her and Skittles, our mature blue male, in getting them to fly to our hand to eat a seed or a chilli, which is more than we expected, so very happy. They have bonded well, (after a rough start), and play together nicely (most of the time).

Here's a pic of them both, happily chowing down on the roses my sister gifted to me

McmillanBirds · Post by **McmillanBirds** » Fri May 17, 2013 3:56 am

Hi Deb

Sorry to hear about the loss of the cinnamon grey

That must have been heart breaking to hear.

The violet blue girl is a real stunner though. Fantastic progress you are making with her

Regards
Carmen

willowisp71 · Post by **willowisp71** » Sun May 19, 2013 11:08 pm

Thanks Carmen - yes, it was very upsetting at the time, especially as we had already met her, and got to hold her - but these things happen, and the breeder did everything she could to save her, along with a couple of other birds that were also sick. It was just not meant to be

It was a big decision to go with a non-handraised bird, but by December, our options were becoming very limited. Most young birds were already spoken for, and we were really only interested in getting a grey or greycinnamon, a violet, or another blue at the very least, which further limited our choices - so when we saw the batch of violets come up for sale, we decided breeding potential took precedence over having cuddly pet

With patience and persistence, we've made lots of progress with them both, so although they may never be "cuddly" - we still get immense enjoyment from our daily interaction with them

sahhbear · Post by **sahhbear** » Mon May 20, 2013 12:59 am

How lovely Deb!! She's a stunner!! I too have had a little break from the forum and therefore haven't posted any recent photos of my terror, though I'm becoming more and more sure Rani is a he.

He's off to the birdy dr tomorrow. The bugger escaped (I mustn't have fastened the latch on his home properly) and he's hurt his elbow? I guess that's the best way to describe it.. the back part of his foot. When he's not feeling poorly I'll snap some pics and post them! Love the pics of your babies
xx