Learning the ropes....

[Bephlam]

Hi folks,

We got our first IRN (Paolo) at the end of February. He's a gorgeous boy...16 weeks old, and very placid generally.

The breeder said he was hand reared, but used a big glove to get him from his cage in to his new home! Anyway, he's been with us almost a week...he's in a really large parrot cage, and eating and drinking really well. As of yet he's not made a sound...although appears to be quite settled, playing in his cage (at times) and preening himself daily.

My partner and I are keen to have a lovely tame boy, so we've been chatting to him (singing to him, etc) every day...and he does react to this...comes over to listen, tilts his head, etc etc. The first few days he would react really badly if you opened the cage to go in to him (jumping around, flying, panting) but over the last few days I've managed to have my hand on the perch next to him without a massive reaction. He does climb about and look at my hand as though he wants to come closer, but is obviously still scared.

My question is really...am I doing things right? Is this normal for a new baby? He doesn't appear stressed...but does just sit a lot, and definitely moves away from the side of the cage if people approach etc. In many ways I see he has came on leaps and bounds in a week...but I'm concerned I'm not doing things right.

Ultimately I just want a happy, go lucky, little bird...who enjoys his home, his humans and his life.

Any advice would be GREATLY appreciated....

Thanks in advance for taking the time to read my scrolls or iinformation! I'm keen to learn....

B x

[smallworld]

HI! Congratulations on the new fella Although it is normal for hand reared birds to feel a little like yours when they're first brought home, your breeder may have cheated you. I dont know why, but I get the feeling he is not as hand reared as one would like him to be. Also the breeder wouldn't need to use a glove to remove the bird from the cage which he/she hand reared themselves. The reason being as the bird looks upon the breeder as the parent. So why would any kid be afraid of the source of love, food & shelter if everything was done correctly?

What I do with new birds and it works everytime for me, is roll them up in a warm towel, covering the back of the neck and just under the lower beak. The warmth makes them feel comfy and the towel under the beak is a distraction from biting your fingers. Then I would just talk to them and after about 2 days try to slowly touch them on their beaks n talk. Everytime I return them to their perch or cage, I always offer something they like to eat n give a few words of praise. Although the first few times they may want to attack you after you put them down, later they become used to it and even take food from your hands, while they're in the towel. Also the first few days they're in the towel, dont keep them in for more than 5 mins at a time. You could watch tv while they're in the towel. Sometimes, we held our birds up to the com screen, so they could see other birds on youtube with their owners. haha Oh warm foods are also comforting. Not hot but warm. This mimics food from the parent birds. Hope this helps you somehow

[Bephlam]

Hi, thanks for the reply...much appreciated!

Like you, I doubt the breeders honesty. I couldn't understand myself why he would have to use a glove to pick him up, etc. I haven't owned or bred parrots before...but I do breed my own chickens, and hand reared babies show no fear of me when I pick them up etc...as I'm their parent, the hand that feeds them...so to speak. Still, I'll make the best of a bad situation...I would have liked him to be hand reared, and really tame...but nothing in life is free, so if I have to work to earn his respect and trust, then so be it!

I have only caught him once (to put him in his big cage) and he went crazy...bit me, sore...but I didn't pull away, instead pushed in to it, and he quickly let go. Since this I have purposely not caught him or restrained him at all....as I thought that would be detrimental to the 'trust' relationship I'm trying to achieve...but what you say makes sense.

So, to get this straight...I should catch him, from his cage...and wrap him gently in a warm tea towel or the likes? Then, chat to him for 5 mins at a time, before replacing him in his cage and offering a food reward? Continue to do this daily, until he allows me to stroke him etc whilst in the towel? From this, will he begin to associate me with good things...and as such will be willing to come to me, without the need to chase, catch and restrain in a towel?

Truth is...I know exactly what to do with a chicken...or another animal in this situation...but not a parrot. I was going for the 'graded exposure' method...which works with humans!

Thanks again...and hopefully you'll all keep the suggestions coming!

[smallworld]

Yes thats precisely what I do and do it about 3 or 4 times a day. With my IRN it only took a week till he took food from me while in his towel and he stop becoming fidgety. With my red crown parakeet, he used to tuck his head in deeper n fall asleep. However, there was one lovebird that we had, n it took her almost a month to get used to us. But the breeder she came from was really bad too. She was starving when she came n she was so thin. The first half n hour of her arrival, instead of checking around her surroundings, she was eating. Once you start giving them something they like, they should be able to associate you with good stuff. You can try it from the first day he is in the towel too. But most of the time, they bite the food n then just drop it. I think this method sort of ensures the bird, you're not a bad guy and you're not gonna do him any harm. Rather you wanna get to know him.

Some people recommend the gradual method of coming n saying hi n putting out some food or treats in your hand into the cage, until the bird slowly comes to you. I dont use this method not because theres something wrong with it but because I'm a little on the impatient side
Its up to you, which one you choose

If you have the ability to do this try this as well. Boil flax seeds, buckwheat, a little bit of wild rice, millet and a tiny teaspoonful of amaranth. Add water about a cup or so & you could boil it for about 15 minutes or so and then mix some fruit into it. Chop up some red apples with skin or kiwis or strawberries(these are the foods mine likes) and mix it in. Let it sit for awhile, so its not too hot and then serve it to him while its still warm. If they have been on a pure seed diet, most of the time they'll pick out the fruits but sooner or later will get to the boiled goodies. My IRN doesnt like honey but if you have some try a teaspoonful or less, depending on how much you make. Give it to them early in the morning. You'll notice it has a sticky stringy consistency and thats good. It kinda imitates the regurgitation of the parents but of course its no where near that digested

If you want to try this, I suggest keeping the bowl away from your wall, as they will shake their heads when they dont like something and you'll get stuff on your wall you dont want. Also, you could freeze it for a few days n heat up small portions every morning so that you dont have to cook it everytime. Just add some water when reheating if it looks dry. Hopefully it will help with the getting to know you process.

[Bephlam]

Okay...so I tried the towel suggestion. OMG! He's the devil incarnate!

He screamed, and bit me...so hard he drew blood through the towel. Of course, I didn't pull away, and let him bite me until he let go and calmed a little bit. I wouldn't say at any point he was 'calm', but he did sit quiet in my hand for a few moments. He looked very stressed to be honest....panting and just looking generally unhappy. Also, it was a real hasstle catching him in the cage, which ended up a bit of a run around and a flapping session.

If this is the best thing to do I will most definitely do it, but right now it feels like it's so stressful for him and me!

Those wee beaks are mighty strong...bit through a pair of leather gloves and a gardening glove...and it was still sore!

Let's hope with this happening daily he'll soon realise we're not hurting him...and calm down a bit.

Who knows...again...some constructive criticism or feedback would be wonderful. I'm terrified of stressing the wee guy out unnecessarily.

[smallworld]

Yeah the first few days are not easy and it really depends on the bird. But I'm surprised at how terrified he is of human contact. He most definitely is not hand raised. Echo came from an outdoor aviary and the breeders only interaction with his IRNs was feeding. He only brought food and water for them. Echo calmed down pretty fast compared to your IRN.

Yes they do have very strong beaks and I will admit that my fingers were scarred the first 2 weeks. In fact my index finger on the right hand was so numb to biting that I didnt feel pain, only saw it bleeding I think the real pain comes not from the bite but rather the chewing motion. After the first week, I didnt use the towel with Echo, thats why my finger paid the price. Ayy these birds

I admit that this is a more invasive method than some others but it does work quicker as compared to some others I've tried. It also helps to get them used to the towel, when you need to trim nails, give meds or so on.

If however you want to try something not too invaisve and less stressful as you said, you could try this one video I saw on youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzJqEu75Zfw

However the wings of the bird have to be trimmed to do this. Otherwise they'd just fly in circles around your bathroom or worse fly into the wall, which could really injure them.

Keep us posted on how it goes /b]

[pinkdevil]

I personally have not tried methods as sugested above but I think anything that stresses a bird is a small step backwards.

From my experience, a bird needs to feel safe and secure with your presence before you can gain their trust, and trust is a huge issue with birds, whether handraised or not.
In another post you mentioned that you have only just got Paolo. A few days is not that long of a time for Paolo to settle in.

If you put yourself in Paolos' position, s/he has been removed from his 'familiar & only known' home and placed in strange house with unfamiliar sights, sounds, people and routines. Paolo has 'lost' his routine of life. It is only natural that Pablo would be a bit stressed and very unsure about what is going to happen next. He just becomes used to his new cage then a scary towel covered hand enters his 'safe place' and thoughts of previous owners gloved hand that scared and removed him from his original home, comes flooding back.
I know if I was in Paolos position, I would be terrified and do all I could to escape the evil towel.
A 'panting' bird is not a good sign IMO. Shows the bird is very stressed. Birds have been known to die from stress.

If toweling looks like it is not working in the birds best interest, I would try using different methods. It may take a little longer but it would make for a less stressed bird in the end.

If Paolos wings are not clipped, I would sugest clipping a few of the flight feathers from each wing to help with taming. A flightless bird will need to become more independent on you. Also the feathers do not take long to grow back at all.....just a few short weeks. So he would be back to flying in next to no time.

If you are having trouble getting Paolo out of the cage, try leaving the cage door open and let him come out on his own accord.

I use food rewards with most of my birds as it seems to work best for me. Just use the food reward treat for training and not as an everyday food as they will tend to not be so keen to do the right thing for it. Each of my birds have a different food preference, some prefer grapes, others apples or capsicum etc.

I have trained one of my babies to do a couple of tricks using food as a reward. There is a video of him doing one of the tricks in the 'video section' of the forum. The same bird last year went through the 'bluffing' stage and was tearing chunks of skin from me and didn't want to be near me....would not think it was the same bird now. lol

Anyway, good luck with Paolo. Hope it works out for you both.

[smallworld]

Yes pinkdevil is right about the trust part. There are just different methods of building trust and mine is to towel them, offer them treats and show them that I'm not a threat to them. I only suggested it because, of all the different methods I've tried, I think this is kinda what has worked with all my birds, the fastest.

[Bephlam]

It all makes sense...and I was most definitely going for the 'I'll respect you, so you can respect me' method...however, so many people suggested catching him and showing him there is nothing to fear, so I did it. I did feel at the time that he was too stressed, and that the experience wasn't positive for me...or him. However, as I have no previous experience to go by...the only thing I can do is follow other people's success stories.

I'm still very grateful for all the advice...and I will continue to learn every day, but for now...I'm not going to be catching him again. I'm going back to the 'graded exposure' method. I feel he's less friendly today than he was yesterday (which is totally expected). He is fluttering away from me each and every time I stand up, never mind go near the cage. Poor baby is terrified of me. which was never my intention...

The wing clipping is a good idea, but how am I meant to do this when I can't even get him out his cage without causing major stress issues? or should I just be catching him again and doing it...then going back to step one with the graded exposure?

Unfortunately, I can't just have his cage open all day to encourage him out...it's just not safe, as we have other animals who are not used to him yet. When he's friendly and able to come out to play, I can then begin the process of exposing the other animals to him. Complicated business. (Hence the reason I looked for a breeder who sold HAND TAME birds...which he is supposed to be, but is clearly no where near that!)

Anyway...I'll keep trying...if it takes a month, it takes a month. I'm in no rush..his cage is plenty big enough to give him room to move about...I just want to have a happy little bird who enjoys spending time with me as much as I do him.

Oh, and he's been here 10 days...which is no time at all. I'm scared I've caused some damage now by exposing him to all that stress. Here's hoping it can be repaired....

[smallworld]

Dont worry you havent traumatized him IRNs can be very stubborn and he is showing you that he is unfriendly because he doesnt want to be man handled.

If you want to be the nice guy to your bird then you shouldnt trim the wings yourself. Because then, he's really going to hate you. Take him to a vet or if someone in your home knows how to do it but doesnt spend as much time with him, then go ahead and ask them.

Once you trim their wings, the first thing they do is try to fly and they hit the ground. That can be dangerous so make sure he has a soft landing or return him to his cage. I've only trimmed the wings on 3 of my parakeets because I really hate the sad look they have after that. But each time I did it, I made sure I had a towel around their face or something, so that they dont see me do it.

Echo is trimmed for the one reason that everytime he saw a bird outside the window, he tried flying into it and I didnt want him hurting himself. None of our other birds do this though.

Well good luck to you

[Bephlam]

Right, well I've established a treat....a monkey nut. He adores them...however, it appears he doesn't adore anything enough to come and take it from us. We've went right back to basics...chatting to him through the bars, then attempted to give him treats through the bars. He just won't look at you, or show any interest...he climbs away as far as possible from you...and if he does approach, he squawks at you and looks quite aggressive. Of course, we ignore this behaviour...but I don't see any improvement. His cage can't be left open at the moment, because if he does come out, I have absolutely no faith I'll be able to get him in...!

So, where to go from here? are we beginning to see some cage aggression? He's still at the stage where he moves away from you if you just stand up to go to the bathroom...although he'll happily watch us eat, and eat his fruit whilst we eat etc...and listen to us chatter away...even moving in his cage to get a clear view of us if we're watching TV or something. He does allow us to put our hand in the cage, but he does move away every time...and it seems that regardless of the length of time you leave your hand there, he never decides to investigate, even if you have a treat in your hand.

He's been with us 15 days....and remember half way through his second week I flooded him and freaked him out.

Any ideas?

[smallworld]

You said you're not in any kinda hurry, so 15 days is too early. You cannot keep changing the method of approach. It has to be constant and stable. So just keep at it.

[Bephlam]

I'm not trying to change methods...I'm not doing anything different, just concerned that he's not made ANY progress. He's perhaps got a little bit worse, showing some sign of aggression now. I just want to tame him as humanely and effectively as possible.

I don't want to leave him so long that he becomes protective of his cage, or becomes more aggressive!

[smallworld]

2 weeks is not a long time. It might be a long time for humans but not for birds. If you choose to go the method where you feed him, talk to him, offer him treats in your hands and wait till he takes it or he comes to you, its going to take time. Its going to take months and not days. But that is all you can do. You can go up to the bird, offer him some seeds or something he likes to eat in his hand. But dont offer it too close, he'll defend. You can slowly decrease the distance between your hand and him, if he doesnt show signs of aggression. You can walk up to his cage and talk to him, repeatedly everyday in soft voices. There are some good videos offering tips on various things to do with a new bird down at Youtube. You could search there too. But thats the gist of it and its through routine & repetition, that the bird gets used to you. The first thing you can teach a new bird is the step up command. But if you want this to work at 2 weeks, than you'll need to trim his wings. But before you do that, i think you should go down to youtube and watch people trying to teach the step up command. IRNs are stubborn. More stubborn than most other parrots, so apply alot of patience.

[Bephlam]

PROGRESS!!

We removed his food (went to feeding twice daily). We've been giving him apple and stuff through the bars, and he's been getting friendlier about the whole thing. Even allowing our hands quite close to him on the outside of the cars...only squawked at me once!

[smallworld]

Thats really good. I'm happy that you're making progress. Once he starts taking the food from your hand, you could try to put your hand inside the cage with the food in your palm. If he is not too scared, he might step on your thumb or fingers to reach for the food. Those few baby steps and test bites are the groundwork for the 'step up' command

[Bephlam]

He escaped!!

Somehow, his food bowl hadn't been locked in place again...and the clever little guy just let himself out.

It was a nightmare!! He flew around...and whenever we tried to put the perch up to him he just flapped about like a mad man! Eventually my partner bribed him in to the cage with a monkey nut!!

Lesson 1) ALWAYS lock the food bowl thing.
Lesson 2) He cannot be out in the room full stop
Lesson 3) He's booked in to get his wings clipped Friday!

Failing that...if he still doesn't want to be our friend, I don't know what to do with him. Really?

[smallworld]

haha oh yeah should've warned you. I was surprised too how echo got out of his cage. They have crafty and strong beaks and even if they're clipped, if you slip up on something, that lil fellar's gonna get out Though it might not really be recommended, if you want him to get used to the surroundings, just close your windows and let him fly about at home. You'll see that he has a favorite spot to sit on.

But clipping him will help u in the training alot! Especially with IRNs. I hate to have birds clipped but sometimes its necessary. He might be molting soon though, so you wont have that much time.

Well I'm glad you had your windows closed and he didnt fly off

[Bephlam]

OMG, I can't believe how many mixed opinions the topic of 'wing clipping' throws up.

Some people think I'm the devil incarnate for even considering wing clipping...

Other people think it's the best thing to do...

Parrot owners are complex things!

[smallworld]

Yeah... sadly. I find your parrot owner opinion the same as well. Wing clipping is such a touchy topic, that in some forums it sparks a wild fire. Well thats why I never really asked for someones opinion on the topic. You're the best judge of the situation, to see how well your birds relationship with you is progressing. If you think its not going to well and you think wing clipping will allow you to become more intimate, then do it. But if you do it just for the sake of rendering the bird flightless, then my friend, you are the devil himself.

I always say and do it only from 1 molt to the next. If I really have to. Why? Because in about the span of 1 year, you should've worked on a close enough relationship with your bird. If your bird is still afraid of you, then you are the problem. Secondly, birds need to fly, like we need to walk. Its their form of keeping fit. Without flight, their muscles (especially those in the chest), atrophy. A bird that has not flown for some years can show considerable muscle atrophy. Also if you dont want your bird to be obese, or dont want him to have a shorter lifespan than normal, let him fly. It keeps them happy and healthy and in the long run, you get less vet bills and a closer companion.

So if you need to do it, do it for 1 season and thats it. If you think nooo..I dont want him flying about my house and making a mess and I'm going to clip his wing everytime it grows back, then a bird is not the right thing for you. They're by nature a lil messy and as nature intended will fly or will want to fly.

The right decision in the end of the day is in your hands.

[Melika]

Exactly, it depends on you and your bird.
It's as personal a decision as cropping a dog's tail.

I had a bird that had a great relationship with me until he could fly- then he became the personification of evil.

Hane is fine with flight and I always give him a few weeks of flight when he gets his feathers back. But with the doors opening and closing all day it just isn't safe to leave him flighted. Not to mention the doggy instinct to snap when a bird buzzes the doggy's head.

If I had a larger parrot that wasn't inclined to take off when frightened, I doubt I would clip at all. Recall training would be way more fun!

[Bephlam]

Well...it's been a wee while now, and Paolo is just the same!

He didn't get his wings clipped...only because I had a terrible chest infection, so couldn't get out of bed to take him. But, I will make another appointment for this month, so that'll definitely be getting done.

He's not really friendlier...will stand his ground when we put our hands to the side of the cage now. Sometimes makes a loud screech (which although I'm sure is aggression, really isn't scary and we don't pull away or anything), other times he makes a very light screech, which sounds far softer...but he just stands his ground.

Unfortunately he still won't take food from our hand...he'll come and get it from the bars if we're quite close, but if we're right there he won't come near.

We're still chatting to him and singing to him all the time...and hope that he'll get better, but so far nothing much happening. We tried to put a perch in to see if he'd step up on it, but nope...just flew about like a nutcase!

He's a gorgeous boy...and has a home for life no matter what, but I still want to tame him. Any more suggestions? should I just keep this up and let him learn in his own time? Also, he's about 6 months now...so could he be going through the bluffing stage as well? Is there a chance when he passes through the bluffing stage he could come round to our way of thinking? Should I be getting him a 'friend' to be with, etc?

Generally looking for some feedback...or suggestions...again!

He also has developed a funny little growth on his toe. It looks like a wart...doesn't appear to be bothering him at all, but should I be concerned? I think he's just caused a friction burn from climbing around his cage...but I know little about them...so would appreciate some advice.

Thanks folks!

[smallworld]

Hi!
Good to hear from you again. Hope you're feeling better Well your last paragraph with the wart caught my eye and perhaps you should take him to the vet. Its definitely the safest thing to do, if you dont want to take any chances and while you're at it, you'll be able to get his wings clipped too. So its killing 2 birds with a stone

I think you're doing quite okay by yourself with Paolo. Because, at least when you approach him he doesnt fly to the other end of the cage. So the trust is building steadily. The fact that he takes food from you, even when you're father away, means he trusts that you're giving him food. So good job with that. Give it time and alot of patience and he'll catch your drift. IRNs are known to be adamant. About the perch, its normal reaction. Some people take a much slower approach with new stuff. For instance, they leave it next to the cage for a few days, so he can see it but not too close. I personally dont do that as our birds are usually pretty used to new things and people. But maybe thats because we've more than one and even when we get a new one, they trust us faster, seeing the way the older ones sit on our shoulder and play etc.

By the way if you get a mate, will it be Paola? haha Some people get 2 birds at the same time but I personally dont think it really helps the training. It can make it worse. Of course in the long run, it would be better for him if you got a friend but for now, since he isn't properly disciplined yet, you should do the training first, I think. 6 months is alright, still pretty young. We only got Echo when he was 5 or 6 months. He has learned alot since. Turning around, step up and step down, no biting etc etc. Training, is sort of like a good form of entertainment for them. Because when they get bored, then they usually resort to behavior we dont want.

Good luck

Ps. Wanted to add that, if you're sick and resting, just make sure he has something to do. You know these rattan balls, that people use for deco? Get one that is not colored, and you can fill it up with shredded paper or dried treats, like dried fruit, and usually they like to destroy the ball to get the food. Or they pull out the strips of paper. Its a relatively cheap toy to make and it works with all types of birds

[GILLIAN]

Hi all, I have been reading through everyones comments on this and have found them very helpful.

I got Monty, my irn about a month ago and his behaiour is exactly the same as Poalo's.

I cant get near him without him flapping about and avoiding any kind of contact. He has settled down a little bit, he doesnt flap as much when i got near his cage, but goes mental when i put my hand inside the cage.

I'm going to try the towel method to try and build our relationship.

thanks

Gillian, x

[smallworld]

Hey Gillian,
just wanted to say that before you try the towel method, you might want to consider that we've never tried it on birds that are already used to us. I mean a month, he should be used to you a little bit right? Its just if he has already began to trust you, even in the smallest ways, then you dont want to just grab him and try stuff with him. He might not trust you so much again. But if you think he doesnt trust you at all and you want to go ahead, thats your decision. If it works in a week or two, let me know how its going

Monty is a cool name
Good luck

[Bephlam]

Hiya...

The towel method didn't work for Paolo or me, but I'm sure it does work with some birds...and people.

Paolo is in no where near hand tame, but he's much better...and gives the impression he quite likes being near you now. Although screams if he thinks you're too close!

I think he's bluffing now too...because although he's screaming, and got his beak wide open as though he's going to bite...I've found out that if I actually stick my fingers in to his beak he does nothing, apart from move away!

He'll come round...give him more time!

[Lolly]

Hi....
Please dont get discouraged ..it sometimes takes a great deal of time .
Our daughter trained hers and took 2 years min ...but she is the only one to handle her . we got her at the age 4 from a pet store .
about 4 to 6 months ago we got a male HES 2 years old ,I did clip his wings but slightly because he may need to run from the female ,but because he is wild and in need of training . im sure now feathers are full .
We are just able now for about 3 weeks to get him to step up on a stick ...
It will seem impossible at first but keep on ,i GO TO HIS CAGE MANY TIMES A DAY every 2 hours and I sit there for about 5 to 7 min at a time with the perch and just put under his belly saying step up the whole time .
omg for so long he would just attack I really never thought he would get it .
But he did phew then I did a dance and good boy gave him a treat .
within that week he will step up right away and I put him on the cage with a treat in the bowl .

Now we have upgraded him to an open cage because now he will step up on the stick and he just loves it .
We will give him time now probably about 4 more months and then we will attempt human contact ....make sure we have plenty of band-aids and alcohol .
You may benefit from teaching this first ...maybe I can get hubby to take a video of what we are doing
I am also in the process of trying to tame 2 grey IRN's these have had no human contact and are very skidish .
I have them in a smaller cage (smaller then i would like ) and when I feed I open and put my arm in .
so far so good ! think I will give them about 4 to 5 more months before I do the stick

I think clipping during this time may be best ..... you can clip yourself ..... If you would like I can get hubby to film the process this way you can see how easy it is ... but you need to get" first aid styptic powder " from pet store b4 attempting .
I just did a clipping yesterday so I am not mentally ready right now ... but can do it on the weekend saturday or sunday .

lmao "to see how easy it is" I didnt just say that did I lol ............clipping the wild ones are stressfull for me always !!!!
i isnt easy getting to the clipping its the clipping that is easy and only takes seconds .
save the money buy your bird some toys see you on the weekend !