Creamino

bonjoram · Post by **bonjoram** » Sat May 13, 2006 11:28 am

For Jeremy and Tintin,

I just want to confirm that Creamino is a product of a genetic crossover (within the male sperm during meiosis) of a bird containing the Turquoise and Lutino genes (ie. Turquoiseblue/Lutino) and that the initial Creamino offspring only happens on hens.

Thanks.

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » Sat May 13, 2006 8:08 pm

Lutino = Green Ino
Albino = Blue Ino
Creamino = Parblue Ino

It really depends on the parents, you can get Creamino Cocks from the original pairing.

TurquoiseBlue/Ino Cock x Albino Hen
=TurquoiseBlue/Ino Cocks
=TurquoiseBlue Ino Cocks (Creamino)
=TurquoiseBlue Hens
=TurquoiseBlue Ino Hens (Creamino)

As long as both parents are carrying the Blue gene and at least the Cock is carrying the ino gene, you will be able to produce Creamino's.

Creamino is not a crossover mutation though. Cross-over is when 2 different sex linked genes occur on the same chromosome. eg Pallid-Ino, Cinnamon-Ino, Opaline-Ino etc

bonjoram · Post by **bonjoram** » Sun May 14, 2006 11:57 am

First of all, there are more diplomatic ways to disagree with another board member's posts. Jeremy is really a good guy.

Tintin_Montreal wrote:They inherit a mutated or not Z from either parent and this single Z can only ever countain a maximum of 1 Loci. Meaning that they cannot carry more than 1 mutated allele per Loci.

Hens can have 1 Sex-linked locus you mean? Isn't it possible for hens to have another locus, say for inheriting an autosomal color trait such as Turquoiseblue for example. Hence a Turquoiseblue Pallid hen would have two distinct loci? Or is every genetic data within the hen's lone Z chromosome considered sex-linked?

A cross-over is NOT a type of mutations but a phenomenon occuring between Loci and which produces secondary mutant offsprings which should have been produced in usual expectated percentages.

So is it possible then to have crossovers involving autosomal traits?

One other thing, and consider the pairing Turquoiseblue/Ino x Blue

wherein 25% of the hen offsprings can be Creamino. It seems to me that the hen's gamete did not contribute any of the alleles responsible for the Creamino mutant (i.e. Turquoiseblue and Ino), except perhaps the Blue allele. Maybe the better question would be:

What is the difference in the loci arrangement between Turquoiseblue/Ino (Turquoiseblue split Ino) and Turquoiseblue-Ino (Creamino) within the two Z chromosomes of the cock?

Mikaela · Post by **Mikaela** » Mon May 15, 2006 7:12 am

Tintin_Montreal

Your post was deleted because it was crued and extremely disrespectful. Allow me to make something very clear... this board it about quality of members not quantity.

That being said, should you, or anyone else, speak to another member in that way again I will, unfortunately, be forced to pick you up by the collar and put you out the door myself.

Zero tolerance for negativity and inability to disagree maturely. This is a peaceful board and it will, if nothing else, remain just that... PEACEFUL.

Jeremy, sorry... cant control everything but I sure try to protect ya'll as best I can.

Please... carry on fellas!

Tintin_Montreal · Post by **Tintin_Montreal** » Mon May 15, 2006 7:58 am

Mikaela wrote:Tintin_Montreal

Your post was deleted because it was crued and extremely disrespectful. Allow me to make something very clear... this board it about quality of members not quantity.

That being said, should you, or anyone else, speak to another member in that way again I will, unfortunately, be forced to pick you up by the collar and put you out the door myself.

Zero tolerance for negativity and inability to disagree maturely. This is a peaceful board and it will, if nothing else, remain just that... PEACEFUL.

Jeremy, sorry... cant control everything but I sure try to protect ya'll as best I can.

Please... carry on fellas!

Hey Mikaela & Every Birdie,
I'm sorry but I was not being disrespectfull at all ! And sure NOT directed at Jeremy !!! All I said was that someone gave him wrong infos and that the person who did needs to go back to reading a very good source of information regarding genetics of mutation such as that of Dr. Terry Martin's “A Guide to Colour Mutations and Genetics in Parrots”

I'm primarly french speaking and so sometimes the words chosen are probably not the best. Please keep that in mind whenever reading my posts...

Mikaela · Post by **Mikaela** » Mon May 15, 2006 8:12 am

Well in any country I dont believe telling another 'not to listen to that guy' is acceptable.

Drop it.

bonjoram · Post by **bonjoram** » Mon May 15, 2006 9:00 am

Although I was the first to jump the gun in defense of Jeremy, I believe now, in retrospect, that Tintin_Montreal didn't mean to disrespect Jeremy and his comment was not geared towards him. Here's what Tintin said:

Hey bonjoram, Jeremy & Every Birdie,
sorry to say this bonjoram but you need not to rely on this person's knowledge. He/she needs to read Dr. Terry Martin's “A Guide to Colour Mutations and Genetics in Parrots”

Case in point, Tintin referred to my source of information as a "He/she". In any country (French-speaking provinces of Canada included), Jeremy is definitely a male's name. So Tintin was not sure of the person's gender who told me that Creaminos are crossover specimens. So Tintin was not referring to Jeremy.

Now, let's heed Mikaela's advice, to drop it and carry on with the thread. I apologize for any part I may have on this slight commotion.

Cheers to all.

Tintin_Montreal · Post by **Tintin_Montreal** » Mon May 15, 2006 9:06 am

bonjoram wrote:Hens can have 1 Sex-linked locus you mean? Isn't it possible for hens to have another locus, say for inheriting an autosomal color trait such as Turquoiseblue for example. Hence a Turquoiseblue Pallid hen would have two distinct loci? Or is every genetic data within the hen's lone Z chromosome considered sex-linked?

Hey again bonjoram & Every Birdie,
I think I had a hard time explaining my mind there (primarly french speaking here) what I meant was that where mutated alleles are involved ; any living-creatures can ever carry a maximum of 2 mutated alleles of any particular &/or all of each Loci.

Both genders can carry 2 different mutated alleles of same autosomal (Non-Sex-Linked) Loci because autosomes (Non-Sex-Linked chromosomes) are always present in pairs.

i.e.
TurquoiseBlue (bl*tq/bl*bl)
AquaBlue (bl*aq/bl*bl)
AquaTurquoise (bl*aq/bl*tq)
Bronze_FallowNSLino (a*bz/a*a)
AquaBlue Bronze_FallowNSLino (bl*aq/bl*bl a*bz/a*a)
AquaTurquoise Bronze_FallowNSLino (bl*aq/bl*tq a*bz/a*a)
TurquoiseBlue Bronze_FallowNSLino (bl*tq/bl*bl a*bz/a*a)

are all possible but

AquaTurquoiseBlue (Bl*aq*/Bl*tq/Bl*bl) is impossible.

Where a difference occurs is where the mutated alleles involved inherit Sex-Linked ;

a cock bird can carry a mutated allele of a particular Locus on 1 of it's Z chromosome and carry another allele of the same particular Locus on it's 2nd Z chromosome. Hens however only having a single Z chromosome can ever only carry a maximum of 1 mutated allele of any particular Locus &/or all of each Loci.

where hens are concerned ;

Lutino (Zino*ino W)
Albino (bl*bl/bl*bl Zino*ino W)

Parblue Ino (aka Cream-Ino) varieties ;
Aqua Ino (bl*aq/bl*aq Zino*ino W)
Turquoise Ino (bl*tq/bl*tq Zino*ino W)
AquaBlue Ino (bl*aq/bl*bl Zino*ino W)
AquaTurquoise Ino (bl*aq/bl*tq Zino*ino W)
TurquoiseBlue Ino (bl*tq*bl*bl Zino*ino W)

Cinnamon (Zcin*cin W)
Cinnamon Lutino (Zino*ino cin*cin W)
Cinnamon Albino (bl*bl/bl*bl Zino*ino cin*cin W)

Cinnamon Parblue Ino (Cinnamon Cream-Ino) varieties ;
Cinnamon Aqua Ino (bl*aq/bl*aq Zino*ino cin*cin W)
Cinnamon Turquoise Ino (bl*tq/bl*tq Zino*ino cin*cin W)
Cinnamon AquaBlue Ino (bl*aq/bl*bl Zino*ino cin*cin W)
Cinnamon AquaTurquoise Ino (bl*aq/bl*tq Zino*ino cin*cin W)
Cinnamon TurquoiseBlue Ino (bl*tq*bl*bl Zino*ino cin*cin W)

Opaline (Zop*op)
Pallid (Zino*pd W)
Blue Pallid (bl*bl Zino*pd)

Parblue Pallid varieties ;

Pallid Aqua (bl*aq Zino*pd)
Pallid Turquoise (bl*tq Zino*pd)
Pallid AquaBlue (bl*aq/bl*bl Zino*pd)
Pallid AquaTurquoise (bl*aq/bl*tq Zino*pd)
Pallid TurquoiseBlue (bl*tq/bl*bl Zino*pd)

and so on and on...

but hens can never be ;

PallidIno because this require 2 Z chromosome onto which 1 Z carries the Pallid allele and where the Ino allele is carried on the 2nd Z chromosome (i.e. Zino*pd Zino*pd) And hens possess 1 Z chromosome and 1 W chromosome so they must be either Zino*ino OR Zino*pd.

So is it possible then to have crossovers involving autosomal traits?

Yes it is but the only 1 proven case I'm aware of is the recombinant (cross-over) frequency between the Bl-Locus and the Dark-Locus which is of 14%

One other thing, and consider the pairing Turquoiseblue/Ino x Blue

wherein 25% of the hen offsprings can be Creamino. It seems to me that the hen's gamete did not contribute any of the alleles responsible for the Creamino mutant (i.e. Turquoiseblue and Ino), except perhaps the Blue allele. Maybe the better question would be:

What is the difference in the loci arrangement between Turquoiseblue/Ino (Turquoiseblue split Ino) and Turquoiseblue-Ino (Creamino) within the two Z chromosomes of the cock?

TurquoiseBlue Split/Ino cock X Blue hen produces ;

SONS :
¼ Blue
¼ Blue Split/Ino
¼ TurquoiseBlue
¼ TurquoiseBlue Split/Ino

DAUGHTERS :
¼ Blue
¼ Blue Ino (Albino)
¼ TurquoiseBlue
¼ TurquoiseBlue Ino

Being that Creamino varieties are produced whenever a complete-albinistic mutation (i.e. SLino &/or NSLino) is visually combined to any Parblue allele(s) and being that the Bl-Locus & all of it's alleles always inherits autosomal NSL) recessive ; hens sure must contribute their mutated allele of the Bl-Locus to that of the cock's mutated allele so that visual Parblue (Parblue &/or Parblue Ino) offsprings can be produced.

TurquoiseBlue Split/Ino cock = bl*tq/bl*bl Zino Z
TurquoiseBlue Ino cock = bl*tq/bl*bl Zino Zino

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » Mon May 15, 2006 8:40 pm

LOL thanks for trying to protect the members of the board Mik, but Stephane wasn't directing his comment towards me.

This whole mishap was about whether Creamino occured at crossover which i reasurred bonjoram that it is not (see my first reply). Stephane was referring to bonjoram's source when everything was said.

But having said that, althought Dr Terry Martins book is very well written, i have spotted several mistakes with the captioning of photos

Oh well, we can't all be perfect

bonjoram · Post by **bonjoram** » Mon May 15, 2006 9:10 pm

Jeremy wrote:LOL thanks for trying to protect the members of the board Mik, but Stephane wasn't directing her comment towards me at all.

Stephane is a dude. Now you can also plead Lost In Translation :wink:

Mikaela · Post by **Mikaela** » Tue May 16, 2006 3:29 am

lol

Im glad ya'll got it worked out. I think I must have dropped in during some of the posting and was like :shock:

because it was my impression someone was saying 'not to listen to that guy'... meaning Jeremy so my claws came out.

Hey, Imma mother of four. I know boys so I assumed it was a chest beating contest lol. I am VERY protective over every member and noone will be treated poorly on my board.

This is my happy place, as it is for many and it will remain that... My word on it.

Carry on Einsteins.

julie · Post by **julie** » Tue May 16, 2006 4:06 am

it wasnt just you mikaela i thought the same.

Mikaela · Post by **Mikaela** » Tue May 16, 2006 4:29 am

Thank you Julie.

Dani03 · Post by **Dani03** » Tue May 16, 2006 6:34 am

seriously...I was like who are you to come in here disrespecting our members but I read it over and realized it wasn't like that. Hehehe yeah we do tend to get very protective of those in our fold here.

Dani Prinny Bodi

bonjoram · Post by **bonjoram** » Tue May 16, 2006 6:48 am

All things considered, apologies to Stephane.

Thanks for dedicating some time to educate the neophytes in the jabberwocky of ringneck genetics. May you have more jaw-dropping posts to come. This goes out to Jeremy as well. Congratulations by the way in your new position.

Tintin_Montreal · Post by **Tintin_Montreal** » Tue May 16, 2006 9:28 am

Jeremy wrote:But having said that, althought Dr Terry Martins book is very well written, i have spotted several mistakes with the captioning of photos Oh well, we can't all be perfect

Hey again Jeremy & Every Birdie,
although I agree that no-one is perfect and holds absolute truth and that anyone can make mistakes ; are you sure that you are not the one being mistakingly classifying these specimens ???

Tintin_Montreal · Post by **Tintin_Montreal** » Tue May 16, 2006 9:39 am

Dani03 wrote:seriously...I was like who are you to come in here disrespecting our members but I read it over and realized it wasn't like that. Hehehe yeah we do tend to get very protective of those in our fold here.

Dani Prinny Bodi

Hey Dani & Every Birdie,
moral of this event ; one should ALWAYS read AND re-read again posts BEFORE jumping onto conclusions and/or posting negative replies. One thing I've learned over the years surfing the Net's hundred's of Boards, Forums, Groups &/or Mailing-Lists ; is that one should ALWAYS calm down and wait at least a few hours before replying to any post which are obviously &/or appears disrespectfull because often times it is not the case and is just plain old misconception/misunderstanding... ;-)

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » Tue May 16, 2006 8:45 pm

Yes, i am absolutely sure that Terry has made several mistakes, and NOT me.
Refer to page 133 of his book.
There is a picture supplied by Dirk Van Den Abeele that is of a Cinnamon Dark Green Peachface Lovebird, however, Terry has called the bird Cinnamon Olive

I also found 2 other mistakes but i will have to find them again. Give me a day or two to find them

Mikaela · Post by **Mikaela** » Wed May 17, 2006 5:27 am

Tin:

I have asked you to DROP IT and I will not tell you again. Continue on with the genetic talk but one more sideways slap and your out of here.

No room for that here... I have warned you countless times. It was dropped and you want to keep it going. No drama on my board buddy so get it right or dont visit us any longer.

Have I made myself very clear?

Your little smug "Im not doing aannnnything" bit AINT working.

Furthermore, although I appreciate your advice on how to run a board, I dont appreciate a member telling me what I NEED to do. I know what I need to do and Im doing it now.

Carry on fellas...

Tintin_Montreal · Post by **Tintin_Montreal** » Wed May 17, 2006 8:21 am

Hey again Mikaela & Every Birdie,
well I'm sorry that you are that sensitive !

Dr. Terry Martin is one of the top leading authority in the science of genetics of mutations. So as I said even though anyone can make mistakes ; it just seemed more probable that Jeremy would have mis-classified the specimens he was refering to. I didn't say he was I said MAYBE !!!

Which means that even Dr. Martin could be the one mistaking here and would proove Jeremy being right !!!

Do you have the slightest in between lines' reading ability ??? Even I who's primarly french can read & understand the difference !!!

Everyone makes mistake, I make mistakes, Jeremy makes mistakes and YOU as well madame !!! Mistakes are opportunities for us all to improove our knowledge & ownselves and most of all reminders that NO-ONE is perfect and holds the absolute truth about anything !

I sure was enthousiastic to be part of this board but your reading ability as well as over-reacting & over-sensitive attitude and most of all your POWER-TRIP madame just drove me off this board...

bonjoram · Post by **bonjoram** » Wed May 17, 2006 8:51 am

I believe Stephane disagreed maturely to Jeremy and Jeremy likewise responded positively.

Oh well :cry:

Mikaela · Post by **Mikaela** » Wed May 17, 2006 9:05 am

Some never learn... Tin, Good Job, you just earned yourself two weeks vacation.

Hope to see you back after such time but if not, good luck in all of your endeavors.

You are rude, catty, disrespectful, childish and nothing short of a trouble maker.

The PMs I have received regarding you are entirely too plentiful because of the above mentioned reasons.

Furthermore, Im not 'sensitive' I simply dont take any crap when it comes to the flow of this board. YOU will not create drama here. Any other Site admin would have already put you out.

Am I right people? I have been MORE than patient with this person.

I would also like to add that in all of my time as Site Admin I have NEVER had to ban anyone... EVER. That should speak volumes in regards to my 'power trip'. Im site Admin dude... not Trump.

A monkey could do this job, therefore, how would anyone feel more powerful just because they have a little title below their name? A normal person wouldnt. The entire concept is rather odd.

Dani03 · Post by **Dani03** » Wed May 17, 2006 10:01 am

Hey Mik...you know what is best girlie! I feel the same way. He needs to learn that this is a loving caring board and we will NOT take crap from him. He doesn't have to be here. Go find some other board to play the drama in. We will welcome anyone and everyone but be respectful...we have strong ties to all of our members and should anyone decide to harass one of them they harass all of us!

Please do not try to make our Mik out to be the bad guy...she is not! She has done nothing but be kind and helpful for all of us. She is not on a 'power trip' and has NEVER acted like she was better than the rest of us. She contacted the creator of this board about taking her position. She willing took up that mantle. Don't you dare tell her how to run this board. She has done a helluva job. Either shape up or get out!

Dani Prinny Bodi

julie · Post by **julie** » Wed May 17, 2006 4:51 pm

i couldnt agree more all he had to do was not say anything about previous posts.and yeah we dont have any genetic input to this thread but we still like to learn about these things for future reference.

bonjoram · Post by **bonjoram** » Wed May 17, 2006 9:37 pm

Mikaela wrote:Am I right people?

I hope that is an invitation to speak out one's thoughts without fear of repercussions.

Just my two cents...

I believe we just made a mountain out of an anthill. This is rather unfortunate...

Until now I am left scratching my head as to why it came to this. I've re-read several times all the previous posts of Stephane and Jeremy and I still fail to connect the allegations of rudeness, disrespect, or childish acts from anyone person to another. What I saw was an exchange of supporting facts from two gentlemen. I'm not really sure now if somehow women see it differently.

We all pretty much stipulated that the first incident was a miscommunication fluke as supported by retractions by myself and Dani and supported by Jeremy. If anyone was rude, it was us for not immediately asking apologies from Stephane. I'm sure the guy spent a lot of time from his busy schedule to make those long elaborate posts and patiently explaining the rudiments of complex genetic subjects. His exchange of knowledge with Neokireina on another thread was also a classic example on how I learned just reading posts from two experienced aviculturists. Between Stephane and Jeremy, I learned a lot and I can say I am no longer a newbie because of them. You may not all agree with me but I am giving credit where it's due.

I hope we will continue to look beyond the language barrier...

Again this is just my $0.02

Post by **ringneck** » Thu May 18, 2006 12:24 am

Hey! Hey! Hey! Come on! I am going to lock this topic. We all have something in common and we all like Ringnecks so let’s find a common ground. :wink: