Help!!

[savoirf]

Hi All
I've read some of the threads on here and although useful don't really answer my question so I am hoping someone out there can give me some advice.
My female ringneck is about 6 (or so we think) and is alone in the cage, she is a rescue so it took a while but with perseverance I became her 'person' which included lots of cuddles and attention. She went through her second round of laying in September, in the last 3 months her condition has deteriorated, I treated for mites, gave her a tonic and she started to improve. Then, about a month ago my loving little girl turned into an angry, bitey, impossible to approach bird and her condition deteriorated again.
She asks for love all the time but the minute I go near her she tries to bite, and has succeeded on a few occasions. I took her off to the vet, he dosed her up with vitamins, dewormed her and sent me home with palm oil and Nutricalm saying that I should start to consider rehoming her in an aviary.
Now, I will do for her what is best for her wellbeing and if this is it, although difficult I will do it but I was hoping someone had some input/advice/alternate suggestions?
Thanks

[AJPeter]

Hallo and welcome,

Hang on, some one with more knopwledge than my self will be with you soon most are in different time zones.

[MissK]

Hi savoirf,

Can you go into a lot more detail? Please describe the diet, the housing, the daily activities, what else is going on in the home, --everything, even including the light. Pictures would be great. Also, when you say her condition deteriorated, please give the details of what changed and how. We have some great folks here, but they are going to need details.

I would go out on a limb and say if you were her person, then she has been comfortable around you. I doubt an aviary is the answer.

[savoirf]

Hi
Thanks,So.....
Diet is pellets and daily fresh fruits and veg, Loves her fruit, not so keen of the veg. She is in a big cage with lots of toys, some hanging, some free that she flings around and drowns in her water bowl. She has two water bowls, one suspended, one on the floor of the cage that she likes to swim in.
She has never been a huge fan of outside the cage for exercise although she would sit happily on my hand or on the couch and run around. If I took her out the cage and put her down she would start to panic. I did persist with letting her out so she can get some exercise and clipped her wings regularly but she would always panic.
At night she is covered at bed time and gets about 9/10 hours, during the day when the weather is nice I put her outside where the cage is in half shade, half sun. Otherwise she is in a room, with natural light and air, where I am a lot so there is a fair amount of interaction as I work from home.

One aspect I should have mentioned in the first post, that was both my dog and my cat passed on in November so there has been a change in the environment, although she never really bothered with them much. Her aggression towards me only really started in Jan.

Her condition, she has lost a lot of weight although she is still eating well, went through a stage looking really ratty and is now covered in fine downy feathers (which is why I thought she may have been going through a massive molt and quite rightly grumpy). Her colour is also a little more muted than normal, which I expect after an egg lay but the multivit I normally give her during and after she lays didn't make any difference this time. She did lay about 10 eggs last year (sept/Oct) so this took its toll. I have tried to attached a pic but even edited to its smallest size its too big. Sorry.

Thanks

[MissK]

Regarding the physical condition of your bird:

Who is this vet? Are you certain it is a certified avian vet? Were there blood tests? Fecal test? Did they closely examine the feathers?

The physical problem you describe, and the interactions you describe seem TO ME (not a vet) to indicate a different problem from "needing to live in an aviary". Did you find out what this vet feels your bird will get in an aviary that she isn't getting at your house?

I assume Palm Oil is for feather condition and Nutricalm for making the bird calm? Why would she need to be calm? Is she plucking? Did she spaz out at the vet in a way she does not do at home? If she needs oil in her diet, can you consider giving her some foods that naturally contain oil, such as certain seeds and nuts? I realize you take her outside, but is indoor light supplementation a possibility?

Forgive me if you already stated this, but what is the time frame for this deterioration, in relation to how long you have had her? What else has changed, other than the time of year, egg laying, and your losing your other pets (Sorry about that, there!)?

I'm the last person to be diagnosing physical problems here, but if you want others to chime in, they are going to need all the facts.

Regarding a personality change in your bird: I think if your bird is asking for love and then trying to bite, it sounds like complaints I've heard from others who are keeping a hormonal female. I don't want to dismiss the situation with "hormonal female, next please!" I'm just saying, this may be a cause.

A second cause might be actual physical injury that causes pain. If the bird is hurt, she might seek comfort, but then react badly if the comfort brings more pain. I'm hoping she isn't hurt, and your vet SHOULD have been able to detect physical injury.

On a side note, I have heard you can simply boil the Ringneck's eggs and leave them with her. She can continue to sit on them until she figures out there will be no chicks. In this way you can HOPE she will not be continuously laying eggs to replace ones you removed. Since there is no male, you don't really have to boil them, but I would, just to be sure they don't break and make a mess everywhere. It isn't nice to leave her sitting on nonviable eggs, but I feel it is worse to allow her to exhaust herself with excessive laying. Breeders can advise you better here.

[savoirf]

I asked the vet why he thought being in an aviary was the only option, he suggested that he felt her issues were hormonal and that a group environment would be better for her. He did no tests just examined her, he is one of the better known vets here who deals with birds although not a dedicated avian vet. He thought she may be anxious, but no to the plucking. I really don't think she is in pain, but as you say, the vet would have picked that up when he examined her.

I have had her for 6 years, I have no idea how old she was when I adopted her or where she came from, but she must have been quite young. She has been laying for the last 2 years, I've always left the eggs in the cage with her until she gets bored of them and moves on, the eggs that break I clear out and replace with dummies.

She laid in September (spring for us here) through to mid October. There was mild condition deterioration Nov and Dec (losing a bit of weight, feathers looking ratty) so I supplemented her food with a multi vitamin and mineral. Her condition didn't deteriorate any further but the personality changes, aggression started in Jan/Feb. Other than what I mentioned, nothing at all has changed.........really, I've given this a lot of thought.

I do give her some nuts and seeds but I was always told to be careful with giving too much because of the fat content. I feed a very good pellet that is mixed with some nuts, seeds, corn and dried fruit. Along with the fresh fruits and veg she gets daily.

At this stage, I am open to any suggestions, artificial light, changing her food, getting my fingers chomped off frequently.......
If this is her being a hormonal female, will this pass?

[MissK]

I have to say that if the problem is new and you've been keeping her for six year prior, that I think you have to look deeper. Obviously, you've seen her at various hormonal stages at various times of the year in the past. You probably know how that goes for her.

Ditto for the diet. If you've been feeding her successfully for six years, and not a bad diet, how likely is it that diet is a big issue now?

As a flock animal, I'm sure she would do "better" in a group environment, but this is not without cost. She would end up reproducing every year, perhaps twice. If her condition is already on the decline, that would do her no good at all. Additionally, if she is firmly identifying with humans instead of birds, a flock environment might actually not fill the expected social function for her.

I would not advise getting bitten. Instead, teach her to not bite. Gee, that sounds so easy, huh? You can use the search function to read about blocking the bite, which has been quite successful for me. Also, if you can possibly figure out the trigger to the bite (this is the heart of it) that would go a long way to getting you where you want to be.

Molting season does come after nesting season. This could have something to do with your feather issues. Sanjay'sMummi recommends a supplement called Feather Up. Also, check and be sure you are not over-supplementing. Give her supplemental light, be it artificial or outside. Give her some protein. Find a different avian vet for a second opinion. Don't send her off to an aviary - what is that suggestion, like taking the ill-trained cat or dog to live on a farm in the country? It's just passing the buck. You don't have to do that. Some parrots do reach sexual maturity after six years or so, making them a hormonal mess, but the IRN is not one of them. She has matured some time ago.

I don't know what else I can say. I'm not a breeder or a vet, and my area of interest lies more in negotiating the social scene in the living room. Your bird may have been a rescue bird once, but now she is firmly established as Your Bird. She's not a waif in transit anymore. Keep trying for her. I really hope somebody else will step up for this thread with more helpful things to say.

Best wishes,

[savoirf]

Thanks for the suggestions. I must admit I took exception to the 'put her in an aviary' as the only recommendation, it's not my nature to give up on any of my 'family' so its is nice to hear that it may not be the best thing for her.

As I type, she is having a great time chasing a grape round the cage

[AJPeter]

I did persist with letting her out so she can get some exercise and clipped her wings regularly but she would always panic.


Savoirf mentioned he clipped her wings regulary would that have a beraring? I give Billie Featherup you sprinkle it on fresh food.

[MissK]

Well, I did read that, but I kept my big mouth shut. For the record, I believe that clipping almost always does more harm than good, though I accept that there will arise the odd circumstance where it could be the lesser of two evils.

Savoirf, if you would like to talk about clipping, I'll have a go at it. Unless the clipping or not clipping is one of the changes in the bird's lifestyle that closely preceded the change in behaviour, I don't think it is the culprit. UNLESS it could be teaming up with something else.

Also, I'm even glad to hear the aviary recommendation offended you. It offended me as well, for myself and on your behalf. Honestly, that was the biggest thing that had me questioning the suitability of your vet! If you can't access a great vet wherever you are, you should be talking to experienced IRN breeders. Plural.

I did just have a thought - did the pellet feed change at all? Did you switch kinds, or did the maker change the formula? When animal feed makers change their formula, they sometimes also change the look of the package. If you have not switched and you don't see any change in the formula, just go ahead and try contacting the maker. Say you heard companies sometimes change their formula and ask if the formula has been improved in the last year. It is known that some birds react unexpectedly to pellets. If there was a change, you might investigate that angle. Just a thought.