Saddleback ?

Gratz · Post by **Gratz** » Tue Jun 25, 2013 4:53 am

Hello
I acquired this bird early this year , it is DNA sexed as a cock bird, bred 2012 ,it show characteristics of being saddleback, opaline , dom pied.
it has the same father as the bird in Deon Smiths book doing the comparison between a saddleback and a turquoise dom pied.the bird on the right is from 2010 or 2011 not too sure .
the parents of my bird are blue dom pied cock,turquoise blue dom pied hen ,
ps the bird pictured in Deon's book has the same father but the hen was not a dom pied
your thoughts will be appreciated.
ps this is the same bird when i purchased it

madas · Post by **madas** » Tue Jun 25, 2013 5:32 am

Hi,

yeah Looks like the so called "saddlebacks". So the bird is out of Chris Whipps aviaries?
Can you update the last pic? It very small in Resolution.

madas

Gratz · Post by **Gratz** » Tue Jun 25, 2013 5:42 am

Hi madas

Not from Chris Whipps,
The blue Dom pied was purchased from a Qld breeder , perhaps one of the Dom pied carrying the opaline gene or may even be a Dom pied opaline as the Dom pied hides the opaline appearance ?
I need to find out what to pair this bird with to prove what it is , I have a turquoise violet blue Dom pied hen I could use next year but that won't show if the bird is opaline so I'm thinking to pair it up with a plain hen
Any thought or suggestions are welcome
Ps I dont have a better pic of when the bird first fledged, it's the only pic I could sneak in at the time lol

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Tue Jun 25, 2013 6:05 am

Gratz,

I found another pic in your album and made the pics bigger, hope you don't mind.

Madas - I'm thinking SL Dom. Edged, still putting the pieces together, same thing for my white pied/ct.
I have a theory and a few things to backup the idea, sf SL Dom Edged can be present in Pieds and Cleartails virtually undetected.

Gratz,
This is your pic, the violet green on the right, i think he id Sl Dom. Edged green violet.
Look at its flight feathers, and compare it to the one on the left.
If my theory is correct and you pair up that male to a saddleback or turquoise? pied you'll get more saddlebacks as well as white and yellow edged pieds in hens. Idea is in its infancy.

closeup of your bird/pic

Gratz Nice birds!

madas · Post by **madas** » Tue Jun 25, 2013 10:04 am

Only violetgreen or violet(df)green???

And yes the bird looks like a SL Edged(ef) bird.

Carr.birds · Post by **Carr.birds** » Tue Jun 25, 2013 10:44 am

Ben & Stefan

I agree with you it is an ef (sf) sl edged violet????? (very dark bird) and I support your theory of sl edged involved +++ could be responsible for the incredible beautiful phenotype of saddle back. AS mentioned hens will have a lighter phenotype. Attached a pic of my dblue harlequin hen. Notice her light phenotype and she is a proven ef dom pied. Tests in 2014 with dblueturq dom pied/opaline & sl edged-opaline/blue should answer some questions raised.

Regards

Tienie

Gratz · Post by **Gratz** » Tue Jun 25, 2013 6:22 pm

Ben,
thanks for enlarging and posting the pics for me.

Ben, Madas and Tienie,
thanks for your input .
any suggestions on what hen I should be looking for to pair up with this cock bird for 2014 season ?

ps I have a turquoise violet blue dom pied hen paired up to a cobalt cock , I might breed something out of this pair that i could use ?
any suggestions are welcome
this is the hen less than 12 months old

this is the same hen now rising 2yo

Gratz · Post by **Gratz** » Tue Jun 25, 2013 6:36 pm

I agree with you it is an ef (sf) sl edged violet????? (very dark bird) and I support your theory of sl edged involved +++ could be responsible for the incredible beautiful phenotype of saddle back. AS mentioned hens will have a lighter phenotype. Attached a pic of my dblue harlequin hen. Notice her light phenotype and she is a proven ef dom pied. Tests in 2014 with dblueturq dom pied/opaline & sl edged-opaline/blue should answer some questions raised.

Tienie,
I know 2014 season is a long way , but it will be very interesting to see your results

incredible beautiful phenotype of saddle back

the camera cant capture this beauty to the extent that the naked eye can see,

puts a smile on my face every time I look at it

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Tue Jun 25, 2013 9:32 pm

Gratz

I have a turquoise violet blue dom pied hen paired up to a cobalt cock , I might breed something out of this pair that i could use ?

You can use any turquoise dom. pied hens from that hen or you can use her to pair up to the sl edged violet green male next year.
If theory is correct as assumed for saddleback you'll need these mutations:
sl edged, turquoise or ?indigo? & dom. pied harlequin

However, with all these mutations together we are also getting close to breeding white/yellow birds especially if we get df edged, and obviously df pied.

What would be easier to prove or disprove the hypothesis is to see all young esp. non-pied offspring from a proven saddleback offspring. we should see edged young if theory is correct. anyone could get such pictures?

Here's a pic on Chris's website of an offspring bred from saddleback (assumed df harlequin and it might be)
this bird can be indeed just df pied and phenotype matches but it could also be sl edged pied instead.

this bird is strikingly similar to my "white" pied /ct from my post CT X Pied
head is showing color and faint color on wings
we can also associate it with Tiennie's Sl edged ADM Pied (Tiennie i will load your pics below for reference)
Young sl edged adm pied hen Tiennie's

and same bird 2 y old

Now, when Tiennie added Turquoise, a totally magnificent bird (Tiennie hope you don't mind posting your pics, trying to make a point)

Turquoise Sl edged ADM Pied combo will look slightly diff. to turq. edged harlequin pied and perhaps Indigo has a roll to play here?

from Chris's website a turq. grey df pied just for reference
http://www.mcw-indianringnecks.com.au/w ... onnors.jpg

Gratz · Post by **Gratz** » Tue Jun 25, 2013 9:49 pm

Ben,

Thanks for you help, looks like we are getting somewhere

Thanks

Recio · Post by **Recio** » Wed Jun 26, 2013 12:13 am

Ring0Neck wrote:Gratz

I have a turquoise violet blue dom pied hen paired up to a cobalt cock , I might breed something out of this pair that i could use ?

You can use any turquoise dom. pied hens from that hen or you can use her to pair up to the sl edged violet green male next year.
If theory is correct as assumed for saddleback you'll need these mutations:
sl edged, turquoise or ?indigo? & dom. pied harlequin

However, with all these mutations together we are also getting close to breeding white/yellow birds especially if we get df edged, and obviously df pied.

What would be easier to prove or disprove the hypothesis is to see all young esp. non-pied offspring from a proven saddleback offspring. we should see edged young if theory is correct. anyone could get such pictures?

Here's a pic on Chris's website of an offspring bred from saddleback (assumed df harlequin and it might be)
this bird can be indeed just df pied and phenotype matches but it could also be sl edged pied instead.

this bird is strikingly similar to my "white" pied /ct from my post CT X Pied
head is showing color and faint color on wings
we can also associate it with Tiennie's Sl edged ADM Pied (Tiennie i will load your pics below for reference)
Young sl edged adm pied hen Tiennie's

and same bird 2 y old

Now, when Tiennie added Turquoise, a totally magnificent bird (Tiennie hope you don't mind posting your pics, trying to make a point)

Turquoise Sl edged ADM Pied combo will look slightly diff. to turq. edged harlequin pied and perhaps Indigo has a roll to play here?

from Chris's website a turq. grey df pied just for reference
http://www.mcw-indianringnecks.com.au/w ... onnors.jpg

Hi Ben, Tienie, Gratz, Madas

Great analyse. Just to point something: the white bird suppossed to be DF dom pied (but that you say could also be DF sex linked edge) shows very dark bill, skin and nails. DF dom pied are supossed not to produce melanin due to a lack of melanocytes (and very often the only pied mark in heterozygous rec pieds birds is a white nail), so this bird would be unlike to be a DF dom pied. On the other hand sex linked dom edge is supossed to act only on feather distribution of melanin, allowing to keep a normal melanin deposition in the bill, skin and nails, as we can see in the pic. If sex linked edge was involved in the genetic make up of saddleback it would also help explaining the specific sex ratio of these birds.

Regards

Recio

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Wed Jun 26, 2013 1:10 am

Hi Recio,

Thanks for your input.
You said:

Great analyse. Just to point something: the white bird suppossed to be DF dom pied (but that you say could also be DF sex linked edge) shows very dark bill, skin and nails.

I did not mean to imply df edged, i believe sf edged combined with harlequin is enough to get white/yellow birds (hens only?).
We can see it in Tiennie's results with ADMs.

I am testing this theory this year with a pair: SL Edged Violetblue (/Cinn.? ) X Blue Harlequin pied hen.

PS It makes sense why turquoise is best used to pair up a saddleback to, it won't give you any white/yellow birds (white/yellow birds being sl edged pied without the parblue).

83IV

Recio · Post by **Recio** » Wed Jun 26, 2013 2:38 am

Hi Ben,

That is an idea to think about. I have not seen any edge bird bred from saddleback, even if people was not specifically testing to detect this mutation. In fact most of work was made looking for the presence of parblues in the genetic make up of saddlebacks, and, to do that, saddlebacks ware mated to blue series birds ... but not parblue nor edge bird were ever described in the offspring (as far as I know).

Regards

Recio

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Wed Jun 26, 2013 2:44 am

Recio,

The breeders reporting; How many know how to identify an sl edged? Can they show us pics of all offspring from a saddleback X blue ?
I guess that most OZ breeders won't be able to identify sl edged/or know of their existance and dispose of the bird as blue to pet market.

Still, if you've had honest reports from breeders on saddleback X blue and no white birds were bred, then it makes the idea less likely to be so.

saddlebacks ware mated to blue series birds ... but not parblue nor edge bird were ever described in the offspring (as far as I know).

Maybe because it could be Indigo and patches won't show before breeders discard of them.

Was there increased reports of DF Pied or Reverse Pied bred from Saddleback breeders?

Ben

trabots · Post by **trabots** » Wed Jun 26, 2013 7:50 am

ps I have a turquoise violet blue dom pied hen paired up to a cobalt cock , I might breed something out of this pair that i could use ?
any suggestions are welcome
this is the hen less than 12 months old

Is this not an IndigoBlue Violet Dom Pied? The TurquoiseBlue version is nowhere near as 'blue' and has much more scrambled egg on the back in my experience.

Carr.birds · Post by **Carr.birds** » Wed Jun 26, 2013 9:49 am

Gratz, Ben, Recio, Willy, Stefan and other members

I am very fortunate that Chris was willing to help me with a df dom pied blue cock. Attached see pic

The idea was to pair him to my sl edged adm pied hen from my red pied line

Regards

Tienie

Recio · Post by **Recio** » Thu Jun 27, 2013 12:55 am

Hi Gratz;

First time I saw your avatar I knew there would be a post about it. Is it a saddleback or not? The true question is what are we calling saddleback? Is it a mutation or a specific combination of mutations? ... or is it just a phenotype which could be achieved by different mutation combinations? The day we will have answered these questions we will be able to use a common language when describing these birds with a specific psittacin distribution in the saddle area.

Till now we do not yet know if what we call "saddleback" is due to a specific type of parblue (certainly not Indigo as shown by psittacin distribution and intensity) combined with dom pied (SF) or SL dom Edge (DF) or a combination of SF dom pied and SF SL dom Edge with or without Opaline (or we can even add the rec pied as another mutation to combine with). To answer these questions we should pair the saddlebacks to wild green birds and to blue birds not split for anything trying to isolate the specific mutations producing this phenotype. Thereafter, whenever a new mutation is detected in the mix (ex: saddle parblue?) we should get the homozygous bird for this specific mutation, as Willy would say, and we should study its age and sex dependency expression, trying to better characterize the mutation respective to other parblue types.
This is a difficult task due to economic considerations.

Ben is rigth when considering that we never see the pics of every offspring of these birds but only the most "streaking" phenotypes or those which are usefull to hold with each breeders thougth, and also when considering that some birds are sold before they could develop the markings allowing to detect the specific mutations present in that bird..

Time will tell us, but in the meanwhile we can speculate trying to improve our understanding.

Recio

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Thu Jun 27, 2013 1:16 am

Hi Tiennie,

The idea was to pair him to my sl edged adm pied hen...

You should still do that pairing. Are you thinking to change ?
We'll have a lot to learn from their offspring.

The only downfall to that would possibly be a lot of white/yellow phenotypes, educational nontheless.

** Saddlebacks - Do we have Saddlebacks in both sexes? thinking of Sl edged hens would have a much lighter phenotype.

Recio · Post by **Recio** » Thu Jun 27, 2013 3:57 am

Carr.birds wrote:Gratz, Ben, Recio, Willy, Stefan and other members

I am very fortunate that Chris was willing to help me with a df dom pied blue cock.
The idea was to pair him to my sl edged adm pied hen from my red pied line
Tienie

Hi Tienie,

From that pairing you will get:
100% males green SF dom pied SF sex linked edge / rec pied / blue
100% females green SF dom pied / rec pied / blue.

The males are expected to show a clear phenotype, but, for me, the most important outcome are the females: would split rec pied be able to increase piedness in a SF dom pied bird? ... or we could reformulate the question as follows: can a recessive mutation become visible in an heterozygous bird when combined with other mutations? This wanderfull idea comes from Johan and was developped as the S shape theory of colour expresion in the yahoo forum.

Regards

Recio

Johan S · Post by **Johan S** » Thu Jun 27, 2013 5:44 am

Recio wrote: the S shape theory of colour expresion

The same curve came up earlier today in a discusison here: http://www.indianringneck.com/forum/vie ... 995#p96995 What a coincidence!

PS: I'm pretty sure Tienie's SL edged adm pied hen will be split blue.

Gratz · Post by **Gratz** » Thu Jun 27, 2013 5:53 am

Recio,
Thank you for your time and effort to reply to my question,after reading your explanation and opinions on the saddleback I think will go with my first thoughts of pairing the cock bird to a plain blue or green,as my bird is a cock bird it would have to have been a huge fluke to get 2 Dom pied birds from the same breeder carrying the opaline gene,however in saying that the bird does show characteristics of an opaline ie: darker head , flights and black shafts on the tail feathers

Gratz

Gratz · Post by **Gratz** » Thu Jun 27, 2013 6:04 am

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Thu Jun 27, 2013 7:24 am

We might end up finding no relation between the edged & saddleback.

Phenotype comparisson: edged V saddleback it is rather strange how close saddleback gets to edged minus the saddle.

Below for reference
df Sl Edged df Indigo ?/?cinnamon male
either side (same bird) and Gratz's bird in the middle.
also using Hue/Sat Sys
http://parakeet.me/irn/f/compAL.jpg

http://parakeet.me/irn/f/compALred.jpg

Carr.birds · Post by **Carr.birds** » Thu Jun 27, 2013 12:04 pm

Ben, Gratz, Recio and Johan

Ben sorry for the confusion, I will keep the pair as mentioned. Unfortunately she is possible split blue or turq. I was working in the red pied line and believe you must keep in the green series. Recio I do think that some recessive mutations in heterozygous form in combination with an other mutation will display a different lighter phenotype. I own 2 green ef sl edged/adm pied cocks and both are a lighter phenotype compared to green ef sl edged. The flight feathers are more diluted.

ef sl edged/adm pied/turq

Regards

Tienie

Carr.birds · Post by **Carr.birds** » Thu Jun 27, 2013 12:16 pm

Ben

From what I was told saddleback exist in both sexes but cocks are rare. Attached a young violet saddleback cock from Chris.

Tienie

Gratz · Post by **Gratz** » Thu Jun 27, 2013 3:35 pm

Ben,
Great work with the comparison
When I saw the first pic I immediately thought , yes the sl brings out the bright yellow,
But then when you put the pic thought the adjustment program I became aware that the yellow on the saddle was a different colour to that on the wings where as the wings on the birds have the same yellow,
Ben thanks for going to the trouble to do the comparisons,
Ps I wonder how my bird and the bird Tienie posted( violet saddleback) would compare ?
Knowing you Ben you are already doing that comparison

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Thu Jun 27, 2013 7:54 pm

Gratz

I have not seen a hen yet in Saddleback.

Comparison pics below.
Chris's bird shows more red since it is a violet.

to save to your computer right click and "save image as"

http://parakeet.me/irn/f/comp3.jpg

http://parakeet.me/irn/f/comp3red.jpg
------------------------------------
Recio
you asked a v. good question:

The true question is what are we calling saddleback? Is it a mutation or a specific combination of mutations? ... or is it just a phenotype which could be achieved by different mutation combinations?

On Chris's website we see many phenotypes bred from saddleback , could we conclude that more then 1 mutation is required to achieve a saddleback!?
one of which is harlequin, chris's pic of pied bred from saddleback
http://www.mcw-indianringnecks.com.au/w ... ghland.jpg

Carr.birds · Post by **Carr.birds** » Thu Jun 27, 2013 9:46 pm

Gratz, Ben and Recio

Gratz for me there isn't any difference between the bird you posted and saddleback, but I am not the expert in saddlebacks. I will only be working with them from this season. My initial thoughts was harlequin + parblue (in 2011), but maybe some other mutation is also involved.

Can our Ozy friends indicate if any mutation appeared from pairing non harlequins bred from harlequin?

I will be testing this in 2014. 1,0 violet dblue/cleartail? & violet dgreen/adm pied/(blue or turq)

Gratz, Chris told me more saddleback females exist compared to males. On Chris's website you will find a matured violet saddleback hen. Will post pic I received from him tonight.

Tienie

Gratz · Post by **Gratz** » Thu Jun 27, 2013 10:12 pm

Ben ,
thanks for doing the hue/sat comparison with the violet saddleback

Tienie,
thanks for your help and sharing your information

Gratz, Chris told me more saddleback females exist compared to males

Tienie, I believe the ratio from 2012 was around 20 hens and 3 cocks, that is the reason I thought that opaline had to have some influence on the saddleback, if this is the case the mother of the cock bird saddleback must be opaline harlequin and the cock bird at least split to opaline.
I would love to see the results from someone who can pair a turquoise harlequin cock with a opaline hen, this pairing may prove or discard some theories
unfortunately I don't have a mature haliquin cock or an opaline hen

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Thu Jun 27, 2013 10:33 pm

Hi Gratz,

I don't mean to extinguish your hope for Opaline in Saddlebacks however all offspring i have seen so far from a saddleback i have not seen an opaline yet.
If a male saddleback carried opaline, all hens would be opaline, so it is not that hard to conclude either way after 1 breeding season.

Harlequin pieds have a darker head as do opalines do but other than that no visual similarites to me.

main thing opalines have is light markings on wing feathers
http://psittacula-world.com/EN/Mutation ... paline.htm

Gratz · Post by **Gratz** » Thu Jun 27, 2013 11:23 pm

Thanks Ben,

it would be good to find out what is responsible for the saddleback appearance,
I guess only time and forums like this will enable us to get to the bottom of it,

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Sat Jun 29, 2013 10:34 pm

I think we are getting close to cracking it.

Need some help though.
*** Pics will be removed soon as they are not mine !!!

Below a green harlequin (father) but its phenotype is not what a green pied looks like.(mother parblue grey)
You will see two young he bred and their phenotype is different to one another.
Q is: The 1 with wing patterns is he carrying a minor pied gene modifier or another mutation? same goes for father that could qualify as sl edged harlequin IMO.

the yellow one is the harlequin pattern as we know it.

Your input is appreciated as i believe this is the key to saddleback once parblue is added.

father

sibling 1

sibling 2 "yellow" (grey green pied)

Gratz · Post by **Gratz** » Sun Jun 30, 2013 1:53 am

Hi Ben,
Yes I think you are on the right track,the father has the saddle pattern that seems to be caused from the sl edge same as the other bird you did the hue/ sat comparison with , same wing pattern less the saddle ( maybe due to the fact that it blended in with the colour of the bird)

The interesting thing for me is the black or dark markings on the young birds wing and tail , especially now that we have the pic that Tienie posted for us of the violet Saddleback , it has the colour in the tail

Good work Ben and everyone else who has had some input on this topic

Recio · Post by **Recio** » Sun Jun 30, 2013 3:20 am

Sorry,

Maybe I am misssing something ... but for me the saddle pattern consists on a lack of melanin on the saddle area, so that the yellow psittacin in this area becomes apparent. The father has a solid green colour on the saddle area ... this means that melanin is present ... so it does not meet Saddleback definition.

Regards

Recio

Gratz · Post by **Gratz** » Sun Jun 30, 2013 3:40 am

Hi Recio

I may have misinterpret what Ben meant , I actually thought he was looking at the pattern rather than the colour then finding the right combination to bring the the yellow into the saddle pattern

My apologies

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Sun Jun 30, 2013 4:07 am

Recio,

Just to be clear neither of these birds are saddleback.

I was merely asking what everyone thought of the 2 diff. pied phenotypes as it could potentially lead us to saddleback's genetic makeup and perhaps we can develop from there.

Concentrating on saddleback's offspring which is an array of birds of diff. pheno & genotypes might not be enough to conclude anything.
The "bred from saddleback" birds listed on Chris's website we can see all sorts of pheotypes and it's not giving us the complete clue.

Gratz, no need to apologize, you're right in what you thought i'm saying. I'm looking in reverse. Finding the harlequin that could with additional mutation/s prodce saddlebacks.

I am certain Saddleback is not 1 mutation, offspring bred from saddleback proves that. They are labelled "bred from saddleback".

I am not all that excited about saddleback, i just like the challenge finding it's gen. makeup.

Recio · Post by **Recio** » Sun Jun 30, 2013 5:29 am

Hi Ben,

I can not find the pics of "bred from saddleback" listed on Chris's website. Could you redirect me to this specific page?

Thanks

Recio

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Sun Jun 30, 2013 5:51 am

Recio,

They are not grouped together, here are some i found on Chris's website.
Some are named and i guess they could be Saddleback although not the phenotype we'd expect to see.

http://www.mcw-indianringnecks.com.au/w ... 1_babu.jpg
http://www.mcw-indianringnecks.com.au/w ... ghland.jpg
http://www.mcw-indianringnecks.com.au/w ... ghland.jpg
http://www.mcw-indianringnecks.com.au/w ... nsmith.jpg
http://www.mcw-indianringnecks.com.au/w ... leback.jpg
http://www.mcw-indianringnecks.com.au/w ... ghland.jpg

You said:

Maybe I am misssing something ... but for me the saddle pattern consists on a lack of melanin on the saddle area, so that the yellow psittacin in this area becomes apparent.

as i understand it the saddle pattern seems to become more visible as bird matures and less so when young. this could imply parblue being present, additionally supporting the parblue idea is the green series saddlebacks missing the yellow saddle.

This as Chris says is a saddleback but still missing the yellow saddle area which should increase visually as bird matures.
second last picture. Violet saddleback.
http://www.mcw-indianringnecks.com.au/for-sale/

PS- Someone found this pic on FB as TurqBL pallid

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:07 pm

Bob was kind enough to provide us with pic of the saddleback that was on Chris's website (first pic)
she was paired to a blue= offspring: 2 blue males and a saddleback hen bred 2012
Mother is currently on eggs with the blue male

Below for comparisson i have added a violet turquoise violetblue pied just feathering up.

http://parakeet.me/irn/f/piedturqvioletaron.jpg

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Wed Aug 21, 2013 4:09 am

From conversations with Bob :
The saddleback (SB for short)
SB hen X Blue male
offspring: 2 blue males (i asked and he confirmed normal blues)
and one SB hen

This breeding result cancels out the option of SL Edged being involved !

Bob's thoughts on SB: "Ben, my thoughts, a unique mutation at the moment, not turquoise, I am leaning towards a parblue..."

time will tell but i concur with Bob for now.

Chriskoi · Post by **Chriskoi** » Sun Sep 01, 2013 10:19 pm

I think These pics could help with your discussion:

dilute turq:

opaline turq:

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Sun Sep 01, 2013 10:27 pm

Thanks a lot Chriskoi ! It sure does.

New questions will follow with these pics.
Ex: is your turquoise bloodline making the saddleback effect?
It seems to be since you have opaline & dilute with saddle.

Would you have a picture of a plain turquoise from same bloodline?
How old are the birds in the first pic? did they have same phenotype when young?

Tiennie, what is your opinion?
you have Dilute.

Johan S · Post by **Johan S** » Mon Sep 02, 2013 12:36 am

Thanks for these pics, Chriskoi. It does clearly show that there is a specific type of parblue that can cause a saddle effect. I love those dilutes!

John Shannon · Post by **John Shannon** » Mon Sep 02, 2013 6:01 am

Hi to group
All lines lead back to the green for the saddle .The modifying genes make the saddle ,eg: Turquoise first .Than the Rec Dilute and the edged Rec or sex linked. these birds may not be true pied or are pieds a combination of the rest.
Just my thoughts John s.

Carr.birds · Post by **Carr.birds** » Mon Sep 02, 2013 11:26 am

Ben

I have bred many turq dilute & turq/dilute birds with a nice saddle in year one, after 15 month moult the turq will spread to the mantle area. Some will keep the saddle area till the 27 month moult.

Attached some pics of a blueturq opaline/adm pied bred from a blueturq/opaline & adm pied/blue (red line). I know discovered after 6 years of breeding that the (Belgium) imported blueturq/opaline cock is split dilute as well.

I can confirm that there is a huge difference in phenotype between a saddleback (dom pied) and blueturq dilute with a saddle.

Tienie

Johan S · Post by **Johan S** » Tue Sep 03, 2013 4:03 am

Carr.birds wrote:I can confirm that there is a huge difference in phenotype between a saddleback (dom pied) and blueturq dilute with a saddle.

Tienie

Tienie, but what about mature "saddlebacks". From the pictures I have seen from Oz breeders, they've had a saddle when young and that saddle spread quite a lot when mature. Are you saying there is a stable version where the saddle remains, and that this is actually the true "saddleback" and different from the parblues (as in your picture)?

Gratz · Post by **Gratz** » Tue Sep 03, 2013 5:25 am

Johan

Just a quick note on my observations,from what I have seen all so named saddlebacks seem to get colour back in their tail feathers as they mature,not sure if this is the case in all saddlebacks or dominant pieds .and yes they do seem to have more colour spread over their back but you can still see the shape of the saddle as it is more concentrate and slightly darker colour than the rest that has spread.
Looking forward to seeing what Tienie has to say.

Regards
Gratz

Carr.birds · Post by **Carr.birds** » Tue Sep 03, 2013 8:25 am

Johan & Gratz

No, I am not saying a saddle remain in matured birds. What I am saying it isn't just a plain turq dom pied. I don't think saddleback is the correct name. Attached see a pic of a 2012 (1 yr old) violet saddleback cock. You can clearly see the deep bright yellow (originally) limited to the saddle area is already spreading to the mantle area.

As mentioned before in discussions I am willing to give my opinion once I have tested the mutation/(combination of mutations).

Tienie

Gratz · Post by **Gratz** » Tue Sep 03, 2013 3:03 pm

Tienie

Thanks for posting that last photo
It is exactly what I was trying to explain to Johan
But as they say
A picture speaks a thousand words
I don't think anyone out there would say that that bird is normal dominant pied

Gratz

Indian Ringneck Vic · Post by **Indian Ringneck Vic** » Sat Sep 28, 2013 5:23 pm

Chriskoi

Like your dilutes, would like to talk to you about them, however site anti spam won't let me, Can you please contact me.

Cheers
Paul