IndianRingNeck.com

Is Deep the term people use now for cobalt? I saw someone interchanging these two and it got me curious. Thanks

No Deep Blue is not the same as Cobalt
they do look very similar

Deep is a third dominant structural mutation like Violet and Dark. In double factor Deep the bird still looks blue like DF Violet still looks violet. DF Dark Blue, or "Mauve" as they call it for some reason, looks Grey.

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Hi Paul,

This thought process was the norm in the past, where people adopted the view that the Deep mutation was nothing more than an inferior coloured cobalt.

Breeders weren't willing to accept the Deep as an independent mutation, and as a result it's development has suffered. Nevertheless, the small number of breeders that have persisted with the Deep mutation have been able to prove that firstly, Deep doesn't produce a mauve in df, and secondly, when Deep and Dark are combined you don't produce a mauve either, but a combination of the two.

Therefore, until more information comes to light, the two need to be regarded as separate mutations.

Some breeders believe that there is more to the Deep than meets the eye, and I'm one of them. Through my investigation of the Deep, I have had some unexpected results. Which is why there is some work being done over the next few seasons by breeders, that will add some weight to the case for, or against the Deep. We have however, had a recent set back which will undoubtedly have an affect on the results we were hoping for.

Hi Kappa
There is no doubt about the existence of Deep as a separate mutation. Willy Stobart conducted the necessary breeding studies and published the proof. It is undeniable.

Hi Mike,
I agree with you, and I also accept all of Willy's findings. However, from my experience, I believe that there is a small percentage of Deeps that are combined with another mutation. We are all aware of the surprises that have arisen out of birds coming from the Smiths collection, so we can never be too sure as to the true genetic makeup of those birds.

I hope to breed a df of this mutation this season, out of birds that I obtained as so called deeps, yet my breeding results to date don't reflect the outcomes you'd expect from deeps.

found this very interesting, cause i didn't even know, the colours came with different names. To me its green,blue or grey. So you can mix the colours when breeding? What is the most sort after colour or most expensive? Hope you don't mind me asking, but i am new to this whole thing.
Also not sure if this is the right place to ask, but do the breeding pair stay together forever or can a male go with another female?

Indian Ringneck Vic wrote:Deep is a confussing unnecessary term used to create interest in varying expressions of Dark mutation.

And again you prove your non-existing knowledge on avian genetics. The dark factor by definition is incomplete dominant and is creating a greyish phenotype for the homozygous form. Any other structual mutation which is incomplete dominant and isn't producing a greyish phenotype can't be a true dark factor.

madas

Kappa wrote: yet my breeding results to date don't reflect the outcomes you'd expect from deeps.

Can you give us some more details?

thx in advance.

Hi Madas,

I have a small number of birds, 6 to be exact, that originate from a cock bird that is better known as a Swales olive. Gavin Swales worked with these green birds for years and bred a number of them in df and called them olives.

The Deep blues were eventually bred from these green birds. However, my birds which are reported to be descendants of an olive, have not bred a single Deep, and I don't think that they are Deep. Proof that there were already in existence Deep combos in green series. This is why I suspect there is more to Deep than meets the eye. This "other" mutation is as yet unidentified, but suspected to be Misty or Khaki.

I find it hard to believe that I'm in a unique position in this regard, I would expect in all probabilities, that there has to be more results like mine, possibly going unnoticed in blue series, as the known population of green series birds is almost non-existent.

Another example is a bird Martin bred last season which we believe to be a df Deep blue, however while it's obviously much darker than a sf, it's is also lighter than you would expect of a normal df. The difference is too great to just be overlooked as general variation.

To make matters worse, Martin just lost his Deep green hen, so any comparisons of df specimens in green series have been derailed. What I can say is that Martin's hen had more blue in her tail, than wild type, and a blue wash over her wings.

My birds lack the blue to the point of just being visible. There is also a noticeable difference in the flight feathers, with mine being more bronzed. With the violet blue hen I produced last season, she shows a marked difference in violet expression, to the point that she appears to be cobalt.

None of these features are common traits of the Deep mutation, yet when I acquired my birds they were identified as out of Deep lines.

Unfortunately, due to breeding season being underway I can't provide any updated comparison photos, but will do so as soon as it's possible.

Cheers.

Kappa wrote:Hi Madas,

I have a small number of birds, 6 to be exact, that originate from a cock bird that is better known as a Swales olive. Gavin Swales worked with these green birds for years and bred a number of them in df and called them olives.

The Deep blues were eventually bred from these green birds. However, my birds which are reported to be descendants of an olive, have not bred a single Deep, and I don't think that they are Deep. Proof that there were already in existence Deep combos in green series. This is why I suspect there is more to Deep than meets the eye. This "other" mutation is as yet unidentified, but suspected to be Misty or Khaki.

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My birds lack the blue to the point of just being visible. There is also a noticeable difference in the flight feathers, with mine being more bronzed. With the violet blue hen I produced last season, she shows a marked difference in violet expression, to the point that she appears to be cobalt.

Hi Kappa,

your description fits to results of Mr. Ehrenbrink from Germany. He has breed one of his Khaki(sf) TurqBlues to a Violett(sf) blue. The "violett" looking offspring was lighter the the father and showed a cobalt like phenotype. I will post some pics next week.

madas

PS: thx for your detailed infos.

Madas,
This is the best I could do for now.

Rising 2yr old cock.




VioletBlue 1yr old hen.


I would have liked to have a Deep blue in there also, but didn't want to disturb them. Nevertheless, the photo clearly shows the unusual violet expression when compared to cobalt and VioletBlue.

VioletBlue hen with 1yr old cobalt CT cock, and 1yr old turquoise VioletBlue.

Hi Kappa
Very interesting, look forward to the post season update. Don't suppose mine will help as I just have the one TurquoiseBlue split CT Deep from Willy, paired with a Green Cleartail split Blue cock. Don't know what all the chicks are yet.
Kind regards
Mike

When i visited Jack Smiths averies years ago he showed me his ozy cobalts , i think these may be the line of birds Kappa has mentioned , i thought that line had been lost , a very different cobalt to the birds we now call ozy cobalt or deep .
Known as Ozy Cobalt in Australia , Azure in England & Deep in S,Africa and Europe I personally beleive these all come from Babus original Azure . I know Jack received Azures from Babu with the Harlequins & Emerolds, i dont know how the names of these birds became mixed up ,
The original Ozy Cobalt had a striking cobalt tail & flight feathers [ i simply thought it was stunning ], but where a normal blue Ringneck has a greyish area around its neck ,the original Ozy Cobalt had a gun barrel black /grey colour that i thought was ugly. ,Varstly different to Deep or Europen or normal Cobalt.

When i visited Jack Smiths averies years ago he showed me his ozy cobalts , i think these may be the line of birds Kappa has mentioned , i thought that line had been lost , a very different cobalt to the birds we now call ozy cobalt or deep .
Known as Ozy Cobalt in Australia , Azure in England & Deep in S,Africa and Europe I personally beleive these all come from Babus original Azure . I know Jack received Azures from Babu with the Harlequins & Emerolds, i dont know how the names of these birds became mixed up ,
The original Ozy Cobalt had a striking cobalt tail & flight feathers [ i simply thought it was stunning ], but where a normal blue Ringneck has a greyish area around its neck ,the original Ozy Cobalt had a gun barrel black /grey colour that i thought was ugly. ,Varstly different to Deep or Europen or normal Cobalt.

Hi Mike,
You maybe able to help more than you realise. Now that Martin lost the only mature verified Deep green hen, we are back to step 1 in regards to, not only trying to establish a phenotype we can use as a standard, but also work towards producing a df deep green.

Martin and I were hoping we would be comparing df green series birds this season, but unfortunately it's not going to happen for at least a couple years.

My advice to you is make careful comparisons of any green series chicks, with wildtype greens.


Hi Chris,
Thanks for the information. I have a pair that may produce blue series chicks this season, so I will keep an eye out for the colour you have described.

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Kappa, your Violet hen reminds me of a cock I bred last season- matches neither a Violet(sf) or a Dark(sf) Blue- I and another speculate that he could actually be a Dark Deep Blue.

pic

Hi Shey,

Good to hear from you.
That's a very nice bird you have there. He had some nice depth of colour about him. Certainly hard to pick, but definitely dark and as you say possibly something more. I don't think violet is involved here.

What is his background? You definitely have to do some more work with him. A df out of this bird will give you a lot more to work with.

Indian Ringneck Vic wrote: It is my opinion that these birds do form part of the dark mutation which has been confirmed by MUTAVI and the proving of it being a different mutation has been inadequate and flawed as this mutation has never been documented as to how it behaves in a controlled breeding program that is devoid of other influences from other mutations.

Mutavi proved nothing more then that "deep" is another structual mutation with the same changes to the cloudy layer as dark. But this doesn't mean it is one and the same mutation. Maybe you are aware of the fact that we have two grey mutations which act the same way but one is recessive and one is dominant.

And furthermore Willy and Ron had setup a controlled breeding program which proved the incomplete dominant inheritance, non-allelic relationship between "Deep" and Dark and non-allelic relationship between "Deep" and Violet. So the nonsense is spread by you.

Attached some pics which clearly show a difference between "Deep"(sf) and Dark(sf).

top to bottom: CT EmeraldBlue, Misty(sf) IndigoBlue, OZ Deep(sf) blue and 2x Dark(sf) blue (without flash):




bottom to top: CT EmeraldBlue, Misty(sf) IndigoBlue, OZ Deep(sf) blue and 2x Dark(sf) blue (with flash):




top to bottom: CT EmeraldBlue, 2x Misty(sf) IndigoBlue, 2x OZ Deep(sf) blue and Dark(sf) blue (without flash):




top to bottom: CT EmeraldBlue, 2x Misty(sf) IndigoBlue, 2x OZ Deep(sf) blue and Dark(sf) blue (without flash):

Indian Ringneck Vic wrote: I doubt the overseas members have ever seen one let alone owned one

The OZ version we have here in Germany since August (great thank to Willy). So you are talking s**t again.

madas

Hi Paul
Would you please explain to us all what you believe to be wrong with Willy Stobart's published breeding based proof of the existence of Deep as a separate mutation from Dark and/or Violet in the Bird Keeper Magazine.
Kind regards
Mike

Kappa wrote:Hi Shey,

Good to hear from you.
That's a very nice bird you have there. He had some nice depth of colour about him. Certainly hard to pick, but definitely dark and as you say possibly something more. I don't think violet is involved here.

What is his background? You definitely have to do some more work with him. A df out of this bird will give you a lot more to work with.

yes, for sure. Only chick that I managed to save unfortunately Dam is a Violet Dark Blue Cinnamon (can see a bit of her in image below), sire some say cobalt, others say violet (was sold to me as a violet) anyhow- he didn't match up with either and (long story short) I no longer own him. Pic below

Hi Paul,
Do you know of anyone that might still have original Swales Olive blood lines?

I have not been able to find anyone who has them. I've been told that many breeders lost interest in them as none of Gavin's birds were split for blue, but many of the cocks were split lutino as that was the only other mutation available for Gavin to work with at the time.

Split for lutino would be an indicator of a true Swale's Olive. My line of birds come from a df cock, once owned by Ross Nicolaci, that was proven to be split ino. All male off spring were sold off to the pet market as a result of also being split ino, the only hen bred out of him is in my possession.

Despite changing hands numerous times, no one really put much work into advancing the line, so I've had to build the numbers myself, with limited success. I think the lure of blue series birds proved to tempting, and the greens were nearly lost.

It would be good to be able to introduce fresh genetics from some of the other olives Gavin produced, if they are still around.

Sorry Shey, I missed your post.

Going by that photo I'd never say that cock was violet blue. He looks like a cobalt. Is your suspicion correct, and he may be a Deep? Did the previous owner, know genetically, that it was a violet, or just called it violet because it was different to blue?
Pity you don't have him anymore.

The young cock looks darker than the siren, pointing to 2 structural mutations. I would put the young cock to a blue hen to see how many different phenotypes he produces.

Some of these mutations have reached a point where it's getting difficult to pick them just on phenotype. But that's what makes for interesting breeding. Good luck with him, I think he will produce a few surprises for you.

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Hi Paul,

Now that you mentioned it I remember the article about Peter Russell's bird. A cobalt looking violet hen.
So if this a genuine violet variant, Shey's young cock might actually be a violet cobalt, but of the lighter violet variation. Which is why it looks different. Shey, in any event, has some test mating to do and as I suggested, a blue hen would help expose a number of different phenotypes.

In regards to the olives, thanks for the extra information. As I suspected, after all the ground work that was done by Gavin, is a shame that it was all wasted, as the line was just about lost. Can you imagine how much more we could have unlocked about this mutation if it hadn't been overlooked for the last decade or two.

Indian Ringneck Vic wrote: There is a photo of the first Australian Mauve on Mick Blakes site Karmic Averies I think it was taken in early 2003-4 I think Ma das would be interested in that.

No madas wouldn't be interested in these pics because he already has and know them. And it is showing nothing more then a Misty(df) blue which could be seen then looking at the rump, The rump is light blue like the one of a normal blue IRN and not cobalt like as seen for a true mauve.



madas

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Indian Ringneck Vic wrote:Ma das wrong photo the photo refered to is of a single bird and clearly marked first aussie mauve and even better would be to find out how it was bred.

there was a bunch of 5-8 pics showing one and the same "aus mauve" in comparison with some other birds like pallids and so on. But the "aus mauve" was always the same bird.















But changes nothing regarding the fact that it is a misty(df) blue (khaki(df) blue).

Thats how a mauve is looking like:











madas

The blueish rump in micks pic:

Hi Madas,

Any chance of posting the photos of Mr. Ehrenbrink.

Cheers.

Indian Ringneck Vic wrote:Kappa good to hear from you. As discussed in our private conversations I have no doubt that the Smith's greens that went on to produce Swales olives under Gavins control offer a host of opportunities when in the hands of a disciplined breeder. However the other imbeciles shooting their mouths off on this forum really don't have a clue they know nothing about the long history of this line and I doubt the overseas members have ever seen one let alone owned one. The others on this forum have used their specimens in combination breeding with other mutations without knowing of the authentisity of the birds or understanding their traits. It is my opinion that these birds do form part of the dark mutation which has been confirmed by MUTAVI and the proving of it being a different mutation has been inadequate and flawed as this mutation has never been documented as to how it behaves in a controlled breeding program that is devoid of other influences from other mutations. This process in it's self will take many years to accomplish and needs to be done before any trials are carried out proving it to be a different mutation. You have been involved with this mutation for some time now and I beleive your probably in the best position to comment on what it's traits are likely to be and I'm sure you will agree that many (most) of the birds being circulated as Swales Olives are at best combinations of many outcrosses and cannot be relied on as true reflections of the family let alone argue their a different mutation.Ma Das this is how true breeding practices are carried out and simply twisting very simple formulars to suit your goal s is nonsense.

Paul I think you have it slightly mixed up but prett close. My understanding is that jack got a couple of Swales olives from Gavin, late 80's from memory. He then passed them on to Bob Hawkes who bred them to blue and produced the first ozy cobalts.
Jack got two from him and bred low numbers of his own in blue and a couple in green. He gave up on the green series ones and just stuck to the blues but didn't breed large numbers.
Bred a couple of df late in the piece but didn't place deep in great importance compared to the emeralds, harlequins and so on.
I have one of his old df deep hens and the young ones are a lot darker than the majority of SF deeps around. I won't be introducing any other 'deeps' to my line as I don't want to risk any disturbance from outside factors and assure that they are from the original line 100%.

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Paul I will do my best to remain polite. As I understand it, the Dark gene (I think you call it European Cobalt) produces a visually grey bird in double factor. Ron McCullough had Deep birds for some years and when he finally bred a DF Deep it was visually deep blue in colour, completely different to a DF Dark. Willy Stobart subsequently conducted breeding trials which establish beyond any doubt that Dark and Deep are separate mutations. Why do you continue to dispute the proven facts?

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Paul. What on earth are you on about now?

Mike you are such a gentlemen.

Hi all, was meaning to post before now, but he's definitely not a Violet Cobalt. Only way to describe his colour to someone without them seeing him in person, is that he is a better overall colour (deeper, richer) than a cobalt.

I will probably pair to Blue or Dark Blue next year to see if I get any variations.

cobalt left.

Nice one Shey. I bred my fist Deeps this season but still in the box at the moment.

Nice reference photo Shey, really shows the richness of his colour.

Mike, fingers crossed you have a deep green in the clutch.

Hi Kappa
Looking at Willy's photo of Deep Green unfortunately not. Looks like 2 Green split Blue split Cleartail, a Deep Blue split Cleartail and a Deep TurquoiseBlue Cleartail that looks like a cock bird.

Hi Mike, congrats on your first Deeps. I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss Deep Green in your nest, as there are quite a few variations about- some even look seemingly Wildtype.

How're your red eyed chicks going?

Hi Mike,
Nice effort. Looking forward to seeing the Deep Turquoiseblue CT.

Hi Shey
The red eyes haven't got much feather yet but they are a shade of yellow not white. That said, they can be EmeraldBlue, TurquoiseBlue or EmeraldTurquoise, but I can't tell which yet. Parents are a Dark EmeraldBlue Cleartail hen and Violet TurquoiseBlue Cleartail cock, both with very clear tails. The only other time I had a red eyed chick from Cleartail parents, both parents had pure tails.
Kind regards
Mike