Cleartail X Dom Pied

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Mon May 13, 2013 12:29 am

I've got a dom pied/ct hen
parents were Cleartail X Dom. pied /cleartail

The hen is 2 y old and she's for the most part white in color (not albino) can see a bit of color head and other places.. just visible, but is white from 5 m away.
Nothing new if both parents were dom pieds and get DF pieds DEC but they weren't.
The breeder i got it from said he had 4 pairs similar setup and white pieds came from all pairs so it was not just one incident.
He has 2 CT pieds and they are really washed color blue, both 2 y olds. i think a male and a hen.
Could they be alleles?
I assume some of the 4 pairs could have been cleartail x dom pied not split to ct...

Any thoughts would be appreciated

Pics tomorrow.

trabots · Post by **trabots** » Mon May 13, 2013 1:03 am

Could they be alleles?

Ben, as far as I am aware alleles have to inherit the same way so ruling that out. Besides the 'white' birds are the others just CHCT and Pieds? I am not surprised that a CHCT Dom Pied is almost clear. I have to ask, if that is the case why bother?

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Mon May 13, 2013 1:20 am

Willy,

I forgot the inheritance rule, just excited i guess.
Well how do we explain my bird? it is not CT only split, so pied/ct birds as well as colored CT pieds are white.
Not all pieds were white, i also have her brother grey pied /ct and he looks just my other grey pied.
_ So we can rule out alleles but there has to be other factors in color production, still, why the split ct birds? unless they are ct birds!?
PS she is grey in color as well.

------------
I'm hoping the CT Pieds to look white body and colored wings, similar to Madas's pics of the Opaline CT (perhaps not the dark head)

madas · Post by **madas** » Mon May 13, 2013 2:04 am

Ring0Neck wrote: it is not CT only split, so pied/ct birds as well as colored CT pieds are white.

How do you know it isn't ct dom. pied without test breeding it? You have written it is out of Cleartail x Dom. pied /cleartail.
So perhaps you made a great deal and got a ct dom. pied.

Btw: I don't think it is a good idea to combine both mutations. You are getting nothing more then a "albino" looking bird with one except males should be getting a neckring. And the same could be done much more cheaper. ;)

madas

Johan S · Post by **Johan S** » Mon May 13, 2013 2:06 am

Ring0Neck wrote:Willy,

I forgot the inheritance rule, just excited i guess.
Well how do we explain my bird? it is not CT only split, so pied/ct birds as well as colored CT pieds are white.
Not all pieds were white, i also have her brother grey pied /ct and he looks just my other grey pied.
_ So we can rule out alleles but there has to be other factors in color production, still, why the split ct birds? unless they are ct birds!?
PS she is grey in color as well.

------------
I'm hoping the CT Pieds to look white body and colored wings, similar to Madas's pics of the Opaline CT (perhaps not the dark head)

You can put the clear bird you have to a cleartail and see if all offspring are cleartails (similar phenotype to parents) if you want to test it. I think a cleartail dom. pied would look almost "grizzled", if you use a "poorer" pied variety that leaves a lot of melanin. Should be very nice looking, but different to the cleartail opalines. If you add emerald to the cleartail pied, you'd be sitting with a stunner!

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Mon May 13, 2013 2:13 am

So perhaps you made a great deal and got a ct dom. pied.

Yes, i has crossed my mind i have mentioned it above...

unless they are ct birds!?

I have a CT blue mature male for her - time will tell if 100% ct offspring then it is a great deal and a ct pied.

I will look at the bird tomorrow in more details and post some pics.
-------------------
I will put the brother down with a green violet/ct hen hopefully we get lucky to see the CT Pied in green series also.

Johan

If you add emerald to the cleartail pied, you'd be sitting with a stunner!

if all goes well for next year.

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Mon May 13, 2013 11:58 pm

pics of the hen

http://parakeet.me/irn/p/piedw.jpg

http://parakeet.me/irn/p/piedw3.jpg

madas · Post by **madas** » Tue May 14, 2013 1:39 am

Ring0Neck wrote:
pics of the hen

http://parakeet.me/irn/p/piedw.jpg

http://parakeet.me/irn/p/piedw3.jpg

As far as i know dom. pieds haven't pink feets and light nails.
So you were a lucky buyer.

madas

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Tue May 14, 2013 1:57 am

Thanks Madas, i hope so
...& here is her brother

Gratz · Post by **Gratz** » Tue May 14, 2013 2:49 am

Ben,
Is the almost white looking bird a blue series ?
Just thinking if the blue if effected more than grey as there is a definite lightening on the grey ( looks almost like silver) only wondering if the blue gets more of a washout,would be interesting to see the results with the green bird

prodigy · Post by **prodigy** » Wed May 15, 2013 9:49 pm

wow quite different from the Recessive pied WHWT

Carr.birds · Post by **Carr.birds** » Wed May 15, 2013 10:36 pm

Ben

Nice bird. Peter if you hve seen a cleartail adm pied get us a pic and post it please

Tienie

Johan S · Post by **Johan S** » Wed May 15, 2013 11:43 pm

prodigy wrote:wow quite different from the Recessive pied WHWT

I suppose it will also depend on the type/variety of ADM pied you use.

prodigy · Post by **prodigy** » Thu May 16, 2013 11:23 am

most defiantly Johan

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Tue May 21, 2013 1:52 am

I wonder ...to bring red color out in ringnecks ; perhaps we need to take the bird color to white/yellow fully saturated and then bring it back and we get diff. tones of colors that might include red/pink.
in which case INO is not the best candidate as it masks but rather a DEC pied or ct pieds or other combos that give us the color we need but still allows other colors to be expressed.
just brain storming here....

Johan, what do you think?
We need your creativity, everyone's.
I noticed everyone is being too careful not to be mistaken or too ask a Q as it's too silly
not being right is part of being creative and proves "One" is exploring. i'm happy when i'm wrong, i can cross off another possibility.

Johan S · Post by **Johan S** » Tue May 21, 2013 5:26 am

Ben, I haven't really given the red bird scenario much thought. Before we can bring out the red in an IRN, we first need to get red in there. There are different schools for thought. Line breeding from "orangy" inos, hybirds, spontaneous occurrence, etc. But, the best quality red birds I've seen have been ones to occur spontaneously from hard to breed ino lines. No amount of line breeding or mutation combination have come even remotely close to these spontaneous birds. Unfortunately, most of them die within a year too, making the situation less than ideal. If you want to talk red birds, I suggest we ask Peter to share some lessons learnt to date. Then we can develop from that.

prodigy · Post by **prodigy** » Tue May 21, 2013 9:56 pm

Line breeding gets you to a point, however still produces weak birds. Reico's thoughts on florescence have proven very helpful and have yielded much better results last year than line breeding.

ALL red birds in any mutation have one common factor, they are all highly florescent.

Recio's work below:

Tienie anything you would like to add ?

.

Carr.birds · Post by **Carr.birds** » Tue May 21, 2013 10:36 pm

Peter

Nice work by you and Recio.

Recio and I discussed my red pied line in detail a year ago with options and advice on how the red bird can be produce without them losing the red at 3 or 15 months moult.

I have set up several pairs for this season including combinations with opaline and pied from the red adm pied family. Let’s wait and see what happens in 2013.

Tienie

trabots · Post by **trabots** » Wed May 22, 2013 12:15 am

Recio's graph is interesting for what we see in IRNs. If it was for parrots generally we would have the lorikeets and probably all New World parrots as not able to flouresce. The line for this ability is too high. Emerald and df Emeralds (missing?) and all Parblue IRNs flouresce to some extent. Very lightly patched birds like the one in the image below also flouresce on the psitticin patches.

prodigy · Post by **prodigy** » Wed May 22, 2013 9:44 am

Willy, you hit the nail on the head the Emerald's are highly florescent as well and would slot in after Opaline.

The best results in RED are achieved with green series birds so I tend to stay away from the blue series all together.

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Wed May 29, 2013 8:58 pm

Back on the subject of the "white bird"
Parents of the bird: Turquoise Grey CT X Blue pied hen
If it is so, the white bird can not be Cleartail pied.
Unless... the hen is split for CT or ???
As Madas mentioned, the bird's phenotype fits the bill of a Ct pied

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Thu May 30, 2013 10:35 am

I bought this "white" pied as a hen.
I've watched their behaviour and i'm not certain it is a hen, if i don't read this wrong she is in fact a he.

Should i do another DNA sexing???
Opinions appreciated. Time is of essence

One thing is for sure... They r not in Love !

8 minute video (can skip forward to the 3rd minute )
http://youtu.be/p11LPY-dcoA

madas · Post by **madas** » Thu May 30, 2013 11:07 am

Ring0Neck wrote:I bought this "white" pied as a hen.
I've watched their behaviour and i'm not certain it is a hen, if i don't read this wrong she is in fact a he.

Should i do another DNA sexing???
Opinions appreciated. Time is of essence

One thing is for sure... They r not in Love !
8 minute video
http://youtu.be/p11LPY-dcoA

I would DNA h(im)(er).

Here in germany it only takes two working days. So time enough.

madas

Gratz · Post by **Gratz** » Thu May 30, 2013 1:54 pm

Hi Ben
I think you will find that the white looking bird is a hen, I have the same problem with a pair of mine where the cock bird is too interested in what's going on in the aviary beside them,I spoke to a few breeders that I know about the situation they all told me the same thing , just wait and when the time is right they will settle down.someone else advised me to put up a partition so they can't see the birds in the next aviary.
Please don't let me stop you from having the bird sexed again , it's just an observation from my personal experience.hope this helps

Gratz

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Thu May 30, 2013 10:58 pm

Thanks Madas & Gratz for your input.
The bird does behave rather strange so i'll do another DNA sexing although it'll take a couple of weeks rather then days here.

Johan S · Post by **Johan S** » Thu May 30, 2013 11:15 pm

Ring0Neck wrote:Thanks Madas & Gratz for your input.
The bird does behave rather strange so i'll do another DNA sexing although it'll take a couple of weeks rather then days here.

Wow, that long? In SA it takes 2-3 days for the testing. The postage is a different story. "Overnight" can easily take another three days...

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Thu May 30, 2013 11:18 pm

If i am not mistaken they send the samples to SA to be processed.

Gratz · Post by **Gratz** » Thu May 30, 2013 11:25 pm

Ben

try this link its dna solutions,
im pretty sure testing with this company is done in Australia
not too sure how long they take but may be worth a call
http://www.genescience.com.au/

Gratz

Gratz · Post by **Gratz** » Thu May 30, 2013 11:28 pm

Just had a quick look at the site
Express results within 48 hours for $3 extra per bird

regards
Gratz

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Thu May 30, 2013 11:55 pm

Thanks Gratz
I'm doing the express one.
Cheers
Ben

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Sat Jun 01, 2013 6:21 am

molossus
Boil the water

i have it black 1 sugar

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:44 pm

The DNA results are back ... ouch

Madas we were right, the hen is in fact

a male

what am i gonna do now? hmmm

madas · Post by **madas** » Thu Jun 06, 2013 12:08 am

Ring0Neck wrote: what am i gonna do now? hmmm

Try to get a cleartail female.

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Thu Jun 06, 2013 12:36 am

I need 2 hens now.

I have a grey emerald /ct hen however she is sept 2012 bred and i am not sure she will go down.
Do you guys suggest i risk it with that hen?
secondly, i paired her up with a /ct male as i didn't think she will breed, so it would mean to break them up , only been together for a month or so. worth trying? or get a mature hen?
what would you do?

Gratz - Thanks for the DNA solutions link, if i would have used the other mob who knows when i would have found out !

Gratz · Post by **Gratz** » Thu Jun 06, 2013 12:38 am

Wow

I'm glad I didn't put ant money on it.
Thank god for DNA testing
Well picked up guys,

JonoH · Post by **JonoH** » Thu Jun 06, 2013 1:18 am

DNA Solutions are great, i've used them plenty of times before.

Johan S · Post by **Johan S** » Thu Jun 06, 2013 4:14 am

Ring0Neck wrote:I need 2 hens now.

I have a grey emerald /ct hen however she is sept 2012 bred and i am not sure she will go down.
Do you guys suggest i risk it with that hen?
secondly, i paired her up with a /ct male as i didn't think she will breed, so it would mean to break them up , only been together for a month or so. worth trying? or get a mature hen?
what would you do?

Gratz - Thanks for the DNA solutions link, if i would have used the other mob who knows when i would have found out !

I'd get another cleartail hen. Shouldn't be too hard to find in Oz.

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Fri Jun 07, 2013 8:25 pm

I have decided to pair him to a violet green/ct/turq? or /blue? hen
i am keen to get some green series in pied ct not so much in blue series.

Johan, you said:

Before we can bring out the red in an IRN, we first need to get red in there.

From a painter point of view, when mixing paints you need red for violet, orange, pink etc..
I think the IRN has already red in it, it is just a matter of turning the right switches
switches; we use mutations to do it for us

but it seems we need "nature" to help out a tad as well.

I don't chase red in particular, but i'm not ignoring the idea either.
a simple cinnamon violet harlequin has a pinkish tone to it, so we can't be that far off.
Also, Peter, Tinnie and others already have red into IRNs.

prodigy · Post by **prodigy** » Fri Jun 07, 2013 10:43 pm

Ben are you able to get a NSLIno Cleartail ?

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Sat Jun 08, 2013 9:17 pm

Peter
No, it is rather late, breeding season is nearly here to search for nsl ino ct
most breeders are hidding if they find inos, especially in ct.
i'm not certain i want to go in that direction, i will think about it perhaps later on.

prodigy · Post by **prodigy** » Sun Jun 09, 2013 2:35 am

Hi Ben.

If your bird was mine it would be the only combo that I would use (Green series of course).

The same was true in South Africa a few years back with guys selling offspring as normal birds to the pet trade to get rid of them.

These NLSIno CT's are fetching on average 300% more that a plain CT.

Important birds to have as the guys this side have been breeding them into the Bronze Fallows and other mutations.

bennjamin · Post by **bennjamin** » Sun Jun 09, 2013 3:18 am

These NLSIno CT's are fetching on average 300% more that a plain CT.

Important birds to have as the guys this side have been breeding them into the Bronze Fallows and other mutations.

What is the difference between them, would you have some comparison pics you could show please.

prodigy · Post by **prodigy** » Sun Jun 09, 2013 8:08 am

NSLIno CT (Tienie Carr's Bird)

What you need to keep in mind here is we are talking about recessive Ino (NLSino) and not Ino (sex linked).

The following things are what you need to look for:

* lighter red eye with white around it (not completely red)
* In Clear Tails the head and tail are a brighter yellow than the body

Skyes_crew · Post by **Skyes_crew** » Sun Jun 09, 2013 10:07 am

Sorry to barge in here...but that bird is strikingly beautiful. I would pay and then pay some more to own that unique specimen.

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:32 am

parents were Cleartail X Dom. pied

The hen is 2 y old and she's for the most part white in color (not albino) can see a bit of color head and other places.. just visible, but is white from 5 m away.
The breeder i got it from said he had 4 pairs similar setup and white pieds came from all pairs so it was not just one incident.

most of the 4 pairs were cleartail x dom pied not split to ct... (not certain if he had 1 or 2 tail x pied/tail pairs)
He held back a couple of the birds he thinks are ct pieds and these birds are still white but have a clearer head and blue underwings, mine does not.

Could it be that CT birds are or carry pied genes?
how do we explain the white offspring which show all attributes of a CT pied?

Any ideas

even ridiculous ones are welcome ;)

* The most logical explanation would be the Pieds were split for CT even if the breeder was not aware of it.

Johan S · Post by **Johan S** » Tue Jun 11, 2013 5:37 am

Ring0Neck wrote:Any ideas even ridiculous ones are welcome ;)

* The most logical explanation would be the Pieds were split for CT even if the breeder was not aware of it.

I think you got it right with that logical explanation. We should take a step back and consider how many recessive mutations a "pure" violet could potentially have. So one might think lets get violet into the harlequin line, meanwhile you might end up breeding a violet / whwht to that harlequin. Even more so, what if a / whwht was "accidentally" used when the very first harlequins were established? I think we have very little "pure" birds out there. Just some of my thoughts.

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Tue Jun 11, 2013 6:13 am

Thanks Johan for your input.

A less likely scenario but not impossible:

The whole lot of them birds (that bred white birds) to be split nsl-ino
not impossible if they were bred from a small pool ; ie: all pieds were siblings from a single pair
and the same for Cts, and some of the parents from both ct & pied parents were /nsl ino

Would the white bird phenotype match a dom. pied nsl ino?

Note: eyes are not red so unlikely to be nsl ino pied

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Sun Aug 11, 2013 8:36 am

A local breeder just advertised a Blue Reverse Pied (aka DF Pied)
I have not asked yet the parents but i assume this bird is a df pied.

It very much resembles my "white" bird.

Breeder of my bird, as i mentioned before had i think 4 pairs paired (CT X Pied) and got "white" birds from all? or most of them.(i guess ratio was 1 white to 4 other including normal pied/ct)

It boils down to the Q: WHat can a rec. mutation like CT can pass on to a Dom. pied to breed a DF pied? <= technically a Dom. Pied/CT, but clearly NOT so; The bird's phenotype is confirming another mutation in play: the red lower mandible, the light feet/nails passes as Ct mutation.

We also know that both sexes were bred in "white"

The only plausible explanation is that the pied birds were also split CT as Madas suggested. thus making my bird a CT Pied.

** What if a third mutation is in play? like Sl-Edged?; hopefully then we can breed ct pieds as well which proves third phenotype.

In any case, as long as they breed i can answer some or all of these Qs after the breeding season.
I have the "white" bird paired to a green-violet/ct

trabots · Post by **trabots** » Sun Aug 11, 2013 5:54 pm

It is my understanding that no mutation can 'undo' another mutation's action (Recio?). If that is so then a SF Pied CHCT would still have a clear head and tail but with melanin elimination (luecism) in random areas where there is still extant melanin ie: on the back and chest only of a CHCT. A DF Pied CHCT would essentially be a not quite clear bird hard to distinguish from a DF Pied.

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Fri Sep 06, 2013 2:09 am

Willy,

I guess INO does, (although we call it masking it is still an action to cancel other mutation's work).
In saying that, i tend to agree that it is likely the white bird is not a CT pied, but a df pied.
how? found a minor pie gene in the CT parent somewhere, which leads to the obvious Q: Ct is a rec. pied mutation?
or partially activates some pied gene switches!?
or, minor pied gene found had nothing to do with the CT mutation

I have 2 fertile eggs from this pair, hope they'll go down again to make a conclusive judgement on what is...

Question: Has anyone had a pair: Dom Pied X visual Rec. Pied & what was the offspring result?

If someone is willing to donate a rec pied i'll do it