Eye color???

[madas]

Hi,

what eye color do your cleartail birds have? So what i have noticed is that my youngsters show a darkred eye then photographed with flash (it's not the red eye effect).
Same i have seen in a pic of a cleartail youngster of O.Z. So what is you Observation?

Same question for rec. pieds?

greetings.

madas

[Ring0Neck]

My CT birds show a cherry darkish red - like the color of strawberry jam looking at it in the jar.
Are you thinking fallow?

83IV

[madas]

Are you thinking fallow?

Yes and no.

Some German breeders got their copy of Deons new book and wondered why the cleartail mutation is arrange under fallow. So i have explained it to them.
They inherit recessive, show partial albinistic features and have red resp. dark red eyes. After saying they have dark red eyes a big discussion on the eye color
began in which i stated that my cleartails have dark red eyes too, proven by pics taken with flash. But most are old hands which aren't easy to convince.

madas

[Carr.birds]

Stefan

This is a 2002 proven blue cleartail/nslino hen. Notice the red eye. Only visible when picture taken with flash.


I don't own a lot of cleartails but from what I have seen during nest inspection is that they have dark eye's not red.

Tienie

[madas]

Hi Tienie,

thx for the pic. Here are some pics of my youngster:




without flash:


with flash:


So have you check the your other cleartails on red eyes? Without flash or other light source they aren't visible and look like normals.
Do you think the red eyes could be a marker for NSLino split birds?

thx.

Stefan

[Carr.birds]

Stefan

I will check tomorrow but I have one more picture of a proven dblue cleartail/nslino cock and he also display a red eye. Interesting observation/question you have. We need more evidence but it can be an indication of split NSLino

This cocks mother (dblue cleartail/NSLino) is still part of my collection and I have a daughter of the cock a blue cleartail/NSLino? hen with a very white tail and head. Picture will follow tomorrow.

Tienie

[sheyd]

This discussion is interesting to me- as I'd assumed they'd all have red pupils (when a flash was used) because they're partial albinos. I can understand why some might think they had 'normal' non albinistic eyes because the pupil virtually looks black up close, but then so does my sfViolet Pallid's eyes- you'd be mistaken thinking that it had normal eyes unless you used a flash and looked at the picture after.


note: not all flashes on devices will show 'red' eyed mutations- I had to use my iPhone to show the red eyes on the Pallid as my camera did allow/show it.
*also took pics of normal Blue and Green with same iPhone flash- and as expected, no red eye detected.

[madas]

as I'd assumed they'd all have red pupils (when a flash was used) because they're partial albinos.

Yeap. This was (or still is) my assumtion too. Unfortunately we have breeding time here in Europe. So can't or won't disturb my birds. Even more because this season doesn't started very well. Still low temperatures and snow every second day. Some breeders lost chicks due to low temperatures or had a lot of infertile clutches. Very sad.
But i have ask a breeder who lives in a warmer part of my country to take some flash pics of his cleartail youngsters. Perhaps at the Weekend i will get the pics.

madas

[Ring0Neck]

I think the red color is directly related to CT mutation.

partial albinos

interesting thought

Here are 3 CT birds all showing red

Mature Proven Blue CT/Cinn (from Willy)


Youg 2012 birds, blue ct poss /cinn & Grey CT hen unrelated

[Carr.birds]

Stefan and Ben

Stefan your youngster cobalt violet cleartail? display a white head and tail at a very young age. This is one of the markers I use to detect cleartail birds that split for NSLino.

Ben I understand your opinion but the matured cock of Willy may also be split NSLino. The fact that a split NSLino partners must be paired to him will take longer to proof if he is blue cleartail/cinnamon/Nsl-ino. I think in SA almost 30% of cleartail birds are split NSLino.

Interesting fact that a blue cleartail NSLino cock display a neckring.

Tienie

[sheyd]

I think the red color is directly related to CT mutation.

partial albinos

interesting thought

Not really, the correct term is Leucism- there are many articles/studies about it in wild birds as well as other animals (think Siamese cats for instance).
They display red eyes (pupils) when a bright light is shone into the eye, the lack of pigment makes it possible to see the blood vessels behind the retina.

[madas]

I think the red color is directly related to CT mutation.

partial albinos

interesting thought

Not really, the correct term is Leucism- there are many articles/studies about it in wild birds as well as other animals (think Siamese cats for instance).
They display red eyes (pupils) when a bright light is shone into the eye, the lack of pigment makes it possible to see the blood vessels behind the retina.

Great find. So if i have read and understood correct then birds resp. animals which are affected by a leucism-mutation can't show red eyes. This is only possible for albinistic mutations. So what does it mean for clearhead, pallid and cleartail? The first two mutations clearly show red eyes but can't be caused by an albinistic mutations because some areas of the body show melanin. I am confused?!??!?!?!

madas

[sheyd]

Great find. So if i have read and understood correct then birds resp. animals which are affected by a leucism-mutation can't show red eyes

I haven't read that Leucistic animals can't show red eyes, only that they appear black, (not to say they wouldn't look red with a light).

This bird (which you've seen before) appears to have black eyes (pupils) too-


until a light is shone
.

[madas]

This bird (which you've seen before) appears to have black eyes (pupils) too-

until a light is shone
.

Yeah i know. Same for Lutino.

I haven't read that Leucistic animals can't show red eyes, only that they appear black, (not to say they wouldn't look red with a light).

From Wikipedia: "A further difference between albinism and leucism is in eye colour. Due to the lack of melanin production in both the retinal pigmented epithelium (RPE) and iris, albinos typically have red eyes due to the underlying blood vessels showing through. In contrast, most leucistic animals have normally coloured eyes."

Perhaps the IRN isn't in the "most leucistic animals" Group.

madas

[Johan S]

Perhaps the IRN isn't in the "most leucistic animals" Group.

madas

Or perhaps that is where the dilute mutation fits.

[madas]

Some more interesting pics of a cleartail violet darkgrenn:





Your opinion please?

madas

[Johan S]

Have you tested it for carrying NSLino? I wouldn't be surprised if it carried that, seeing how little black there is in the neckring. It seems entirely grey. Not sure if it is a 100% marker.

[sheyd]

Perhaps the IRN isn't in the "most leucistic animals" Group.

madas

Or perhaps that is where the dilute mutation fits.

hmm seems I was wrong with the term 'partial albino' have since found this article which briefly but efficiently covers (in wild birds) Ino, Dilution, Pastel, Melanism, Albinism and lots more..
http://www.housesparrow.eu/pdfs/english ... nBirds.pdf