pictures of Deep and Dark Greens?

[sheyd]

I've seen the comparison between Deep and Dark Blues- was wondering what the differences between the Greens would be..?

Cheers

[prodigy]

Lets see who can guess these ?

A


B


C and D (both birds on the stick)

[sheyd]

revising..

[prodigy]

Sorry I messed the labels up, but none right please try again Chocabo. Also no grey green in any of the birds

[sheyd]

Any chance of getting more pics like the first- it gives a better 'feel' for the colour...but anyway my guesses are:

Violet Green?
Olive (DD Green) maybe also Violet?
Dark Green?
Dark Violet Green?


Answers?

[prodigy]

ok hint time

All 3 birds are out of the same nest

Parents are as follows:

1,0 violet ????????? green /blue x 0,1 violet(DF) deep dark blue

I have left out the question marks to make it more fun

P.S.Very close on the second guess

[Johan S]

ok hint time

All 3 birds are out of the same nest

Parents are as follows:

1,0 violet ????????? green /blue x 0,1 violet(DF) deep dark blue

I have left out the question marks to make it more fun

P.S.Very close on the second guess

You are kidding, right? When did you import deep??? And had time to breed that to a violet(DF).

[prodigy]

SA Deep !!!!

[Johan S]

SA Deep !!!!

Do you have pics of the DF of this mutation in green or blue (and no, not the CHF bird)?

[prodigy]

As a matter of fact yes we do, see both attached DF (remember we all have secret projects)

[prodigy]

Hi Molossus,

I know thanks, the comparisons were done at my house

[Johan S]

As a matter of fact yes we do, see both attached DF (remember we all have secret projects)

These ones looks just like the pictures of the SF birds I took at your place. And to be honest, considering how close they are to the dark factor, I can not imagine that the DF of this mutation would look like that. Can you please put these DF birds next to the SF ones in the same picture. And if not to forward, can I ask for a better quality pic than the first ones you uploaded? It would clearly illustrate the difference.

[Carr.birds]

Johan
I agree with your statement. There isn’t any difference between Peter’s pics and the birds we own as sf SA “Deep”, but we might be missing trick and only recognize df birds and sf are mistaken as normal birds. I have some split fallow birds from Nico Theunissen’s collection that clearly display a darker shiny phenotype.

Tienie

[Carr.birds]

Lee

Thanks we will communicate and decide on the way forward after consultation with my friends Recio, Stefan and Deon. I think the fact that the original imported European "Deep" green hen is in our possession will be helpful. Every breeder wants to make money but for me it is more important to sort out the mutation first and place it in the correct category.

Tienie

[Ring0Neck]

Does anyone know if the SA deep from Nico Theunissen’s collection was imported into Aus?

[prodigy]

Hi Tienie,

  Post subject:  Re: pictures of Deep and Dark Greens?  
Johan
I agree with your statement. There isn’t any difference between Peter’s pics and the birds we own as sf SA “Deep”, but we might be missing trick and only recognize df birds and sf are mistaken as normal birds. I have some split fallow birds from Nico Theunissen’s collection that clearly display a darker shiny phenotype.

Tienie

You are quite correct in your statement "but we might be missing trick and only recognize df birds and sf are mistaken as normal birds".

I will email you examples and how we are able to distinguish the differences.

Peter

[Johan S]

Hi Tienie,

  Post subject:  Re: pictures of Deep and Dark Greens?  
Johan
I agree with your statement. There isn’t any difference between Peter’s pics and the birds we own as sf SA “Deep”, but we might be missing trick and only recognize df birds and sf are mistaken as normal birds. I have some split fallow birds from Nico Theunissen’s collection that clearly display a darker shiny phenotype.

Tienie

You are quite correct in your statement "but we might be missing trick and only recognize df birds and sf are mistaken as normal birds".

I will email you examples and how we are able to distinguish the differences.

Peter

@Peter, why not just upload them for public discussion?

@Tienie, how close are those suggested SF birds to normal blue? The reason I ask is that there are many reports of blue x "NT blue/violet/dark" where the offspring were blue and "NT blue/violet/dark", clearly showing it to be a SF. UNLESS... the SF birds are almost exactly the same as a blue. Then these birds in the pics might be a DF, and might also be a very similar or the same muation as "azure". What makes me doubt this, however, is 1) the numbers of these birds. They are not that rare. 2) Informal verification of the mutation by a Pretoria breeders suggests a violet phenotype in DF. This was after many people repeatedly questioned the "violets" he was selling, so he went out to prove a point. I haven't seen the bird though.

[madas]

@Peter: please could you write a summary on this topic which we can use on our new ringneck-genetics plattform? If possible with pics.

[prodigy]

Only a pleasure my friend

[Johan S]

the SF birds are almost exactly the same as a blue. Then these birds in the pics might be a DF, and might also be a very similar or the same muation as "azure". What makes me doubt this, however, is 1) the numbers of these birds. They are not that rare. 2) Informal verification of the mutation by a Pretoria breeders suggests a violet phenotype in DF. This was after many people repeatedly questioned the "violets" he was selling, so he went out to prove a point. I haven't seen the bird though.

@ Tienie: The other thing that makes me doubt the phenotype very close to blue is this: While we were studying the birds, I specifically asked about the parentage of the bird and Peter assured me the bird that we used for comparison in the pictures was bred from a blue father (cleartail is also involved, but not relevant). Thus, we are guaranteed that the bird (at least the blue one) is a SF expression of the mutation. I'm sure Peter wouldn't have tried to mislead me. Forgot to mention it earlier.

@Peter: How's the photo coming along of the SF and DF bird next to one another? That's going to be an awesome pic.

[Carr.birds]

Pics of green, dgreen, SA deep green and violet green.




Tienie

[Carr.birds]

pic of green, dgreen, American violet green and SA deep green.




Tienie

[Johan S]

That is an excellent comparison of SF birds, thanks Tienie! Now we just have to wait for Peter's pic of the SF and DF next to one another.

[sheyd]

Tienie- you are an absolute legend

[Carr.birds]

Chocobo

Thanks for the compliment. It is an absolute pleasure, IRN mutation breeding is my passion. Breeding, observing, learning and sharing knowledge with other passionate breeders and knowledgeable people is the best reward you can get.

Tienie

[prodigy]

Unfortunately the DF was SA Deep Green was sold last week by my breeding partner, so lets start with the basics and i will show the differences with what we have to work with.

The technique I am going to briefly explain I use when we are unable to visually tell birds apart with the naked eye, but is also a perfect why to point out the differences between SF birds and DF birds.

Tienie's wonderful picture of green, DK green, American violet green and SA deep green.


Tienie's wonderful picture under the fillers


Tienie's SA Deep SF


Tienie's SA Deep under the fillers SF


I am going to cut to the chase here and am not going to bother identifying the rest of the birds under the fillers and point out what to look for in the SA Deeps.

Firstly we are looking under the filters for a "red purple" main tale feather and purple on the wings.

Now lets look at some pictures of SA DF Deeps


Under the filters

[trabots]

All the talk about 'SA Deep' why, until the homozygous bird is bred? Is anyone about to do this?

[Carr.birds]

Willy

If you read Peter's argument you will notice he is trying to explain by using his filters that the df (homozygous) "SA Deep" already exist. Correct me if I am wrong but for me homozygous mean the df bird in dominant mutations and visual full colour in recessive mutation like cleartail.

Tienie

[Johan S]

Unfortunately the DF was SA Deep Green was sold last week by my breeding partner, so lets start with the basics and i will show the differences with what we have to work with.

The technique I am going to briefly explain I use when we are unable to visually tell birds apart with the naked eye, but is also a perfect why to point out the differences between SF birds and DF birds.

@Peter, are you sure they were sold? I spoke to him yesterday and he said they are still there and I can come have a look on Sunday. You don't perhaps have a pic of the full tail feather? From both the filtered and unfiltered pics it seems as if that is once again the region where we will get the most information about the DF.

@Willy, yesterday when I spoke to the breeder Peter often refers to, he did mention he is setting up pairs to try and breed DF birds. Furthermore, I think collectively between a couple of breeders, there will be birds paired to achieve DF, a cobalt combination and a violet combination. There will hopefully be answers to these phenotype questions towards the end of the year. Allelic relationships with dark and violet will follow much later.

[Ring0Neck]

Peter,

Can you make sure you use settings: hue 154 & sat. 150 just to make sure we can compare same settings.
I have the "green violet" from the same nest as the 1 with light nails which i talked about in another thread.
The mother is a violetblue, i looked at it and it is rather a nice dark color, it is not a cobalt phenotype and paired to a green this is the offspring.

* one thing is for sure, taking a photo closeup will change the color intensity in the hue/sat system to a more accentuated color.


http://parakeet.me/irn/f/edge/vgred.jpg

Tienie & Everone else,
As far as Deep Blue. I believe that everyone would agree with me in saying that we need to setup pairs for next breeding season and need to use 100% identified birds as Deep .
Some of the pairings we'll need to make from SA as well as AUS breeders:
Deep X Deep - (with and without blue)
Deep X Grey etc.
I think we should communicate & record on the research website who is doing what, keep strict records including pics of parents and progressive pics of young.
Hopefully within one year we'll have most of todays questions answered.
Working as a team will achieve great things in a short period of time, and results are verified by everyone.

Ben

[prodigy]

They are all 2012 birds and of no use to man nor beat at this stage of the game, the MATURE DF birds have been sold into a breading program.

[trabots]

Willy

If you read Peter's argument you will notice he is trying to explain by using his filters that the df (homozygous) "SA Deep" already exist. Correct me if I am wrong but for me homozygous mean the df bird in dominant mutations and visual full colour in recessive mutation like cleartail.

Tienie

Sorry, I guess that is what I mean't; a DF 'SA Deep Blue' alongside a SF 'SA Deep Blue'. If they exist then that comparison will be much more worthwhile .......... or does it exist in Blue? The differences will be more pronounced in Blue series I reckon.

[Ring0Neck]

Edit Removed

[Johan S]

They are all 2012 birds and of no use to man nor beat at this stage of the game, the MATURE DF birds have been sold into a breading program.

Of course not, pictures of young birds are also nice to look at!

[Johan S]

Unfortunately the DF was SA Deep Green was sold last week by my breeding partner, so lets start with the basics and i will show the differences with what we have to work with.

The technique I am going to briefly explain I use when we are unable to visually tell birds apart with the naked eye, but is also a perfect why to point out the differences between SF birds and DF birds.

@Peter, are you sure they were sold? I spoke to him yesterday and he said they are still there and I can come have a look on Sunday. You don't perhaps have a pic of the full tail feather? From both the filtered and unfiltered pics it seems as if that is once again the region where we will get the most information about the DF.

I have had another phone call to clear the air, the mature birds are in fact sold. I have misunderstood. My apologies!

[Carr.birds]

Johan, Peter and Forum

I think I know who bought the so called df birds. It should not be difficult to get some pictures. Before we continue I want to know from Peter if he is a 100% sure that the matured green hen is a df and not a dark SA “deep green” ?

Tienie

[prodigy]

Below is the pairing that the bird in question came from, the filters show me that the bird in question has highest concentration of "red purple = deep" I have seen in any green series bird, of that I am 101% sure.

Whether the bird is Green or DK Green is irrelevant to me, the concentration and the fact that the bird shows up completely covered in "red purple" from head to tail with the RED tail points to a DF SA Deep Green or DF SA Deep DK Green

Look at your DK Green in the picture under the filter and notice nothing on the wings and the red-orange tail

Now Look at your SA Deep Green in the picture under the filter and notice the very different appearance as described above and in previous posts.


1,0 'Deep' D green /blue x 0,1 'Deep' blue

1,0 6.25% green /blue
1,0 6.25% blue
1,0 6.25% D blue
1,0 6.25% D green /blue
1,0 12.5% 'Deep' blue
1,0 12.5% 'Deep' D blue
1,0 12.5% 'Deep' D green /blue
1,0 12.5% 'Deep' green /blue
1,0 6.25% 'Deep'(DF) blue
1,0 6.25% 'Deep'(DF) D blue
1,0 6.25% 'Deep'(DF) D green /blue
1,0 6.25% 'Deep'(DF) green /blue

0,1 6.25% green /blue
0,1 6.25% blue
0,1 6.25% D blue
0,1 6.25% D green /blue
0,1 12.5% 'Deep' blue
0,1 12.5% 'Deep' D blue
0,1 12.5% 'Deep' D green /blue
0,1 12.5% 'Deep' green /blue
0,1 6.25% 'Deep'(DF) blue
0,1 6.25% 'Deep'(DF) D blue
0,1 6.25% 'Deep'(DF) D green /blue
0,1 6.25% 'Deep'(DF) green /blue

[prodigy]

Lee

Thanks we will communicate and decide on the way forward after consultation with my friends Recio, Stefan and Deon. I think the fact that the original imported European "Deep" green hen is in our possession will be helpful. Every breeder wants to make money but for me it is more important to sort out the mutation first and place it in the correct category.

Tienie

Ummmm I think the experts should handle this one

[Carr.birds]

Peter

The problem we are sitting with is that if you view Nico’s breeding list you can see that at some stage in 2005/6/7 he introduced dark and violet into his collection. The 2 original imported hens are 2000 birds. Let’s assume he was lucky and in 2002 produced his first SA born SA Deep birds. These babies were ready to breed in 2004. In the early stage of a new mutation you keep producing the heterozygous (sf) bird to broaden your stock and sell some to get a good return on your investment. Hans Meyer (SA dark factor) only years later produced his first homozygous (df) bird. From the Nico list I have the only df birds were marked as “df violet blue clearheaded fallow” bred in 2010.

In my opinion we should work with the original imported hens and SA Deep green and Deep blue birds that were bred from 2002 to 2005. To avoid any confusion Dark and Violet must be absent.

I was told by a breeder who own Nico Theunissen birds today that he produced df birds from to a pair of sf SA Deep birds. Let’s wait for the pictures for comparisons.

Tienie

[smick]

Do normal green cocks usually have blue upper tail feathes because the cock I had upper tail feathers were pure green?

[Ring0Neck]

Hi Smick,

Yea,
It is quiet easy to identify a green as opposed to dark/violet green just have them next to each other.
see pic below:
http://parakeet.me/irn/f/edge/grvioNgrn1.jpg
wildtype green

[sheyd]

interesting- thanks for putting them under the filters Peter.

I asked a breeder who had some Oz deep birds and he said that the only noticeable difference between a normal Green and a (oz)Deep Green was that the (oz)Deep Green had a slightly different shade of blue in it's tail feathers, but other than that they were virtually identical. Unfortunately the picture he shared didn't say much as the tail feathers weren't in the shot.

What have you found Willy?

[trabots]

Sorry, I don't have a Deep Green

[sheyd]

ah, that's okay- thanks.
Would love to have the Deep mutation so I could have a play around with it with the Green series

[prodigy]

As soon as the pathetic South Africa government lift that ban on importing birds to and from Australia I will happily trade anyone who wants !

[Carr.birds]

Peter

You will never be able to export birds to Australia, but will be able to import from them when the ban is lifted and only from some regions in Australia.

Tienie

[prodigy]

thanks Tienie

[Ring0Neck]

Pics of green, dgreen, SA deep green and violet green.

*****Tienie - I have noticed a few yellow spots on the dgreen bird in your pic below - i have a green hen with a few yellow dots as well.
Could that be a marker that the bird is split to some particular mutation?

[madas]

Only normal green (for sure split opaline and blue)??? Out of opaline green /blue x turq cobalt violet.
But this cobalt violet isn't that dark as my other cobalt violets but is notable darker then a good Quality violetblue.
Pics taken outside today with cloudy weather conditions.

Judging from the tail color i would go for normal green. Your opinion please?






thx.

[trabots]

Tienie, I again spot the bits of blue colour on the wings of the SA Deep Green. It doesn't seem to get mentioned much when these images of SA Deeps are posted. Is this feature variable to any extent? Is it at all evident when in Blue series? When will a DF SA Deep be bred??