Please help identify this mutation

[prodigy]

Hi All,

Please help identify this mutation for my breeding partner, the bird is over 2 years old and has completed the second molt.

It started off with a few yellow spots on the wings and has progressed to this.

Please lets ignore the progressive pied mutation, so no prizes for calling it a progressive pied !

Please comment on the color as well as this was the pairing, note no progressive pied in at all.

1,0 grey green x 0,1 dark(DF) blue

1,0 50% dark green /blue
1,0 50% grey dark green /blue
0,1 50% dark green /blue
0,1 50% grey dark green /blue





Thanks,

Peter

[madas]

Out of a Cleartail line?

[Johan S]

It started off with a few yellow spots on the wings and has progressed to this.
Please lets ignore the progressive pied mutation, so no prizes for calling it a progressive pied !

Why should we ignore progressive pied? Esp. if the glove fits so well from your description? The owner of this bird has confirmed that it is from a line that originated in KZN. Considering that the progressive pieds in SA also originated in that region, I can not possibly see how you would simply try to ignore it...

Alternatively, it may be recessive edged. Madas, does recessive edged birds show increase in edging over time?

As to the colour, greygreen (dark).

[Johan S]

Pro hi,
the markings appear grizzle. No reason why it cannot duplicate the nature of prog pieds and be prog grizzle.
strange though that the edging on the flights are restricted to the primaries and that the secondaries are normal. What about the other wing?

Molossus, grizzle is known to be a regressive mutation; at least for cocks who loose their grizzle markings at maturity.

As to your questions, both wings appear very similar. Sorry, Peter, beat you to it.

[prodigy]

[prodigy]

Hi Madas,

No cleartail or any other mutation that we are aware of.

[Johan S]

Peter, why do you think we should ignore progressive pied?

[prodigy]

Hi Johan,

Because not one of the progressive pied we have looks like this, the outer flights also look different.

Are progressive Pied's also not at dominant mutation?

The Parents of these birds look completely normal.

[madas]

Pics of progressive pieds provieded by Tienie:






greetings.

madas

[Johan S]

Hi Johan,

Because not one of the progressive pied we have looks like this, the outer flights also look different.

Are progressive Pied's also not at dominant mutation?

The Parents of these birds look completely normal.

Tienie will be able to elaborate, but I'm under the impression that they have recessive inheritance. Some people in KZN incorrectly call certain types of recessive pieds "dominant pieds" as the cocks retain their neckrings. Of course, this doesn't make them dominant, simply they are recessive pieds that aren't ADM.

[Carr.birds]

Johan

Mottle pied is a dominant inheritance, pied varies between 5-95% and therefore can often be mistaken for normals.

Tienie

[madas]

Because a grizzle is born with the "grizzle" pattern. Most progressive pieds don't.

madas

[madas]

Hm, i don't think so. What i have seen grizzle looks in another way.

[Carr.birds]

Lee

If you think the word grizzle means (mottle) progressive pied then stick to your opinion. I don't know the grizzle mutation very well but from what I have seen it is a major pied but that cock are regressive. I don’t know if hens are progressive.

Tienie

[ZaneFindlay]

Hi all,

Please give opinion on the following bird, Originally from Belgium and is a split white tail. So far none of the offspring look like the cock bird which leads me to believe that it is a recessive gene and hopefully Ill prove that this season.


http://www.flickr.com/photos/89143242@N ... hotostream
http://www.flickr.com/photos/89143242@N ... hotostream
http://www.flickr.com/photos/89143242@N ... hotostream

Please also know that the bird in question only started to show white feathering at the same time he got his neck ring! almost like when the clear tail or clear head go through their mutation or maturity change.

Regards

[Johan S]

So far none of the offspring look like the cock bird which leads me to believe that it is a recessive gene and hopefully Ill prove that this season.

Zane, that was the very same assumption I made, but it seems as if I was wrong. Have a look at this website and look for the description of Mottle (Mo): http://www.mutavi.info/index.php?ref=define

The two things of importance here: 1) the mutation is progressive like you describe, and 2) the inheritance is polygenic, and not recessive, if it turns out these birds are mottled.

[prodigy]

Very Interesting, this is apparently a "Recessive White Head Whitetail Whitewing" from Europe (quite the craze at the moment it would appear)

[Johan S]

Wonder if it is a combination of mutations, or the clearwing mutation allelic to dilute. Or something else altogether. Interesting bird, though!

[Carr.birds]

Peter

Is this the only picture you have?

Nice combination of mutations, (cleartail, (pale or dun) fallow and nsl ino) if nsl ino can't mask fallow

Tienie