How did this happen?

[dog_glenn123]

Hi all i have been breeding IRN's for 12 years and was basicly just breeding standard calours.
I had a pair of Lutino,s that always had 2 offspring and where always hens (4 yrs in arrow)
After the hen died i paired the cock bird with one of his daughters and in the 1st go i got the usual 2 lutino hens but also had 1 turquoise cock bird which is mainly green except for some tail feathers which are turquoise and the feathers next to the flight faethers on the wing.
Any ideas on how this happened?
Also i was thinking of pairing it to a blue lacewing cleartail any other ideas on what to pair it with?
Thanks Glenn

[Recio]

Hi all i have been breeding IRN's for 12 years and was basicly just breeding standard calours.
I had a pair of Lutino,s that always had 2 offspring and where always hens (4 yrs in arrow)

In birds, unlike in mammals, the offspring sex depends on the mother. If you only got females from your pair of lutinos there are at least 3 possibilities:

1. A statistic fact: 4 hens/clutch X 2 clutch/year X 4 years = 32 hens. You can have a (1/2)32 (that is 1/2 x 1/2 x 1/2 ... 32 times) of getting all those hens from a "normal" lutino pair. This is a very, very low probability.

2. Ovocytes carrying the X gene from the female did not develop, and she only had Y ovocytes.... she only produces female offspring.

3. Male embryo would be homozygous for a sex-linked letal mutation and, thus, they do not develop, while female embryos would be heterozygous (just one X cromosome) and this mutation would not be letal for the female embryos (something similar to hemophilic disease in humans).

After the hen died i paired the cock bird with one of his daughters and in the 1st go i got the usual 2 lutino hens but also had 1 turquoise cock bird which is mainly green except for some tail feathers which are turquoise and the feathers next to the flight faethers on the wing.
Any ideas on how this happened?

I can not find any rational explanation with the present knowledge about IRN genetics. Let's analyse:

1. Let's imagine that the lutino cock is a SL-ino type .... thus his daughter is necessarily a lutino hen of the same type (SL-ino). If you pair him to his daughter all the offspring would be yellow (or white if the father and the daughter were split blue, or DF creamino if they were split turquoise, but never turquoise). In this case it does not matter if the lutino hen was SL-ino or NSL-ino since the daughter inherits the SL-ino gene from the father.

2. Let's imagine that the father was a NSL-ino type ... thus the mother must also have been NSL-ino in order to get all the offspring (32 hens) lutino. If she had been SL-ino the expected offspring would have been green split NSL-ino and also split SL-ino. Again pairing the father with the daugther will produce all lutino offspring (or white if the father and the daughter were split blue, or DF creamino if they were split turquoise, but never turquoise).

3. You can try any other combination with both types of lutino and splits ... you can never get a turquoise male from any genetics for lutino father and lutino daugther.

The only possibility is that the lutino cock is not the father of the hen: he is SL-ino and she is NSL-ino ... all the females from them will be lutino and if both birds are splits (blue or turquoise) and (blue or turquoise) you could get a turquoise male. Are you sure that the lutino hen is a daughter of the lutino cock?

To me this question seems similar to the one about the male cinnamon with a violet mother:
IT IS NOT TRUE/POSSIBLE ... but it was a great time thinking about it

Also i was thinking of pairing it to a blue lacewing cleartail any other ideas on what to pair it with?

A blue lacewing cleartail is in fact a blue pallid cleartail. How can you make the difference with a blue clairtail?

Regards

Recio

[dog_glenn123]

Point number 1 i only bread them once a year and they only ever had 2 babaies both hens each time.

Point number 2 I sort of understand.

Point number 3 i sort of understand as well.

And the final point yes it was deffinetly paired to his daughter, there is only one other possability but i cant understand how it would have been allowed.
I had 1 nest box in the aviary all the babies came from that same nest box but i had a blue hen in the same aviary she never went near the nest box that i saw and the yellow hen sat on the nest all the time what are the chances the cock bird mated with her to and the lutino hen allowed her to lay one egg in the nest. You seem good with odds

Regarding the the Blue pallid cleartail i was not looking to change anything but was just wondering if it would be a good pairing to put to the turquoise (If he truly is that) to get some nice colours out of the pair.
i know that i would not see the cleartail visually but looking to then breed there of spring with another cleartail.

[Coastal-Birds]

Hi
Hmm this one has me beat also,spent like 30 mins trying to work out possiblities but even if the hen was masking say grey green or any other colour all birds in the nest will be visual white or yellow. How you got a visual pastel blue(turquioise) in the nest has me stumped.
Is there any chance of a photo of this bird?

[Recio]

Point number 1 i only bread them once a year and they only ever had 2 babaies both hens each time.

Hi,
I had erroneously supossed that when saying offspring you were meaning clutches, I had choosen the average number of eggs per clutch (4) and the 4 years breeding. One question: 2 females from how many eggs? If only 2 birds, always females, from 4-5 eggs, the theory best matching your results is number 3.

And the final point yes it was deffinetly paired to his daughter, there is only one other possability but i cant understand how it would have been allowed.
I had 1 nest box in the aviary all the babies came from that same nest box but i had a blue hen in the same aviary she never went near the nest box that i saw and the yellow hen sat on the nest all the time what are the chances the cock bird mated with her to and the lutino hen allowed her to lay one egg in the nest. You seem good with odds

Now you have the answer: SL-ino cock split turquoise x blue female will produce lutino females and can produce SF turquoise males. It is well known that a male can breed with 2 females at the same time. If they only have a nest box .... Something else: probably all the eggs were coming from the same blue female, not only the "male egg". It is known that some females do not sit on eggs. Yes the odds for this possibility are very high when comparing to the odds of erroneous genetic theory: 0.001/0 = infiniteness.

Regarding the the Blue pallid cleartail i was not looking to change anything but was just wondering if it would be a good pairing to put to the turquoise (If he truly is that) to get some nice colours out of the pair.
i know that i would not see the cleartail visually but looking to then breed there of spring with another cleartail

I have never seen a pallid cleartail, could you post a pic?

Regards
Recio

[dog_glenn123]

Regarding the photo of my what i beleive to be Turquoise cock (as i have only been able to compare to other photo's) its raining heaps in Sydney at the moment i will get a photo and post it hear for you but it will be next week. Also i have had alot of problems pairing him to anything he killed a blue hen i put to him, then i had another blue hen die in a thunder storm, then put a grey hen to him and she tried to kill him to the point that he had no tail or flight feathers and a split down his chest, took 5 months to get him back to normal.
Are there some birds that can never be paired?

Regarding the Pallid cleartail my mistake i meant to wright Turquoise grey pallid or Turquise blue palled.

And regarding the eggs and two hens i thought of the that as well they may have come from my blue hen but the Lutino hen sat on the eggs and raised them. Its got me but nature has a way sometimes.

Thanks Glenn

[dog_glenn123]

And i forgot to add that i never interfied with the nest to see how many eggs she laid but there where never any left afterwards. So i guess what hatched was what was laid.

[dog_glenn123]

Hi Recio i have the photo's but cant attach them can you point me in the right direction?
Thanks Glenn

[dog_glenn123]

I figured it out below are the links to the pictures on photo bucket.
The green bird is the one i think is the Turquiose Cock that came from my Lutino cock and Lutino hen or Blue hen.

Regarding the photo of my what i beleive to be Turquoise cock (as i have only been able to compare to other photo's) its raining heaps in Sydney at the moment i will get a photo and post it hear for you but it will be next week. Also i have had alot of problems pairing him to anything he killed a blue hen i put to him, then i had another blue hen die in a thunder storm, then put a grey hen to him and she tried to kill him to the point that he had no tail or flight feathers and a split down his chest, took 5 months to get him back to normal.
Are there some birds that can never be paired?

Regarding the Pallid cleartail my mistake i meant to wright Turquoise grey pallid or Turquise blue palled.

And regarding the eggs and two hens i thought of the that as well they may have come from my blue hen but the Lutino hen sat on the eggs and raised them. Its got me but nature has a way sometimes.

Thanks Glenn

http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx29 ... G_1901.jpg
http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx29 ... G_1902.jpg
http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx29 ... G_1903.jpg
http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx29 ... G_1908.jpg

http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx29 ... G_1891.jpg
http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx29 ... G_1892.jpg

[Recio]

Hi Glenn;

The green bird is .... a normal green cock
The grey birds is .... a normal grey
and the blue one is .... a normal blue.

I do not see any turquoise ot pallid grey (pallid grey display a white head and turquoise pallid display a yellowish head). May be the grey is turquoise but I can not see any turquoise markings in the head from that pic (and the wings are not visible).

Cheers

Recio

[dog_glenn123]

I know the grey is just a grey hen.
The blue isnot normal blue its blue cinnimon (Sky Blue) cock 5 mths old.
The cock may be normal green but its parent where lutino. On its wing are a funny colour (brownish) with cimilar markings to pastel birds.

i pick the Pastel blue lacewing hen on sunday. to be paired with the green bird.

[Recio]

Hi Glenn;

Blue cinnamon coks display a greyish colour mainly on the wings and a blue head. These features are more marked after reaching sexual maturity. In young birds it could not be simple to remark the difference. Look at the birds nails: if they are grey your bird is a blue, if they are transparent/rose your male is a cinnamon. Another possibility: look at the eye colour in a photo with flash: cinnamon birds will show red eyes. Have a look here:
http://home.wanadoo.nl/psittaculaworld/ ... nnamon.htm

Regards

Recio.

[dog_glenn123]

His toe nails are transparent/rose and on another photo that i took his eyes where red in flash.
But he is very light blue which makes him cinnimon. His dad was blue cinnimon and mum was violet.
I know you can get blue cocks from that pair but i have had blue ringneck before and mine is very light.

[Recio]

Hi Glenn;

There is a wide difference in blue deepnes among different strains of IRN, and deepness in colouring also increases with age. Not every blue look exactly like the others.

Greetings. I go in holidays for a week to .... Canary Islands .... loroparque

Recio