Newbie - need crash course on genetics

[baut1957]

Hi, my name is Leo and I'm a beginner, and have just acquired 2 pairs of IRN. I reside in Northern California, San Jose to be exact and have been in this great hobby just last March. I bought a Violet Turquoise Pallidino male paired up with a Turquoise Lacewing female. The second pair is a Blue Cleartail male and a Blue Violet Cleartail female, hope I'am right. Just want to know what the outcome will be with these pairs. Also, I'm still learning all the terminologies, and know it's going to be awhile before I get the hang of it. I bought 2 books, namely, A Guide to Asiatic Parrots and Indian Ringnecks - Breeders Handbook, both great books to start with. Just wondering if there are more websites available out there for us beginners. Especially, descriptions of the terms used in genetics like ~ Ino, what is a Pallidino etc. I was able to get in the Genetic Calculator and it just blew my mind on what info to put in, and that's when I realize I need to know the terminologies by heart before I even play around it. Sorry if I asked to many questions ~ just a hobbyist willing to learn and enjoy these magnificent birds. Will appreciate your response. Thanks.

[madas]

1. pair:

1.0 turquoise(parblue)Blue violet(sf) pallidIno x 0.1 turquoise(parblue)Blue pallid

6.25% 1.0 blue pallidIno
6.25% 1.0 blue violet(sf) pallidIno
12.5% 1.0 turquoise(parblue)Blue pallidIno
12.5% 1.0 turquoise(parblue)Blue violet(sf) pallidIno
6.25% 1.0 turquoise(parblue) pallidIno
6.25% 1.0 turquoise(parblue) violet(sf) pallidIno
6.25% 1.0 blue pallid
6.25% 1.0 blue violet(sf) pallid
12.5% 1.0 turquoise(parblue)Blue pallid
12.5% 1.0 turquoise(parblue)Blue violet(sf) pallid
6.25% 1.0 turquoise(parblue) pallid
6.25% 1.0 turquoise(parblue) violet(sf) pallid

6.25% 0.1 blue ino
6.25% 0.1 blue violet(sf) ino
12.5% 0.1 turquoise(parblue)Blue ino
12.5% 0.1 turquoise(parblue)Blue violet(sf) ino
6.25% 0.1 turquoise(parblue) ino
6.25% 0.1 turquoise(parblue) violet(sf) ino
6.25% 0.1 blue pallid
6.25% 0.1 blue violet(sf) pallid
12.5% 0.1 turquoise(parblue)Blue pallid
12.5% 0.1 turquoise(parblue)Blue violet(sf) pallid
6.25% 0.1 turquoise(parblue) pallid
6.25% 0.1 turquoise(parblue) violet(sf) pallid

2. pair:

1.0 blue cleartail x 0.1 blue violet(sf) cleartail

50.0% 1.0 blue cleartail
50.0% 1.0 blue violet(sf) cleartail

50.0% 0.1 blue cleartail
50.0% 0.1 blue violet(sf) cleartail

But you should know that this pairing (cleartail x cleartail) isn't the best pairing. your offspring will be small and weak, or will die in the egg.
So a better pairing will be split cleartail x cleartail.

[baut1957]

Thank you Madas. The percentage shown means the percentage of the genes that compromised the chicks, right? Does it mean that the higher the percentage of a certain mutation the more likely I will have that mutation on the offspring. I believe on the second pair, the female is a split Cleartail because she is Albino.

[madas]

I believe on the second pair, the female is a split Cleartail because she is Albino.

Now i am little bit confused. I thought you say that you have a pair
1,0 Cleartail Blue x 0,1 Cleartail Violet Blue.

How can a Cleartail Violet Blue be an Albino?!? How much did you pay for this bird? If the hen is really an Albino / Cleartail you will get the following offspring:

50.0% 1.0 blue cleartail /ino
50.0% 1.0 blue /ino cleartail

50.0% 0.1 blue cleartail
50.0% 0.1 blue /cleartail

As you can see all Birds are Blue. 50% are Cleartails.

Please post a picture of your birds.

Thx

[baut1957]

Madas, sorry to confuse you. I will send a picture of the pair. I paid $500.00 for this pair.

[baut1957]

Madas - here's the picture of the pair. Male is a blue/cleartail and the female is a blue violet (sf) ino cleartail. Am just copying to what the breeder told me.

http://s650.photobucket.com/albums/uu22 ... impson.jpg

http://s650.photobucket.com/albums/uu22 ... essica.jpg

http://s650.photobucket.com/albums/uu22 ... t=Bart.jpg

Hope these pictures will help

[baut1957]

Madas,

[quote="madas"]1. pair:

1.0 turquoise(parblue)Blue violet(sf) pallidIno x 0.1 turquoise(parblue)Blue pallid

6.25% 1.0 blue pallidIno
6.25% 1.0 blue violet(sf) pallidIno
12.5% 1.0 turquoise(parblue)Blue pallidIno
12.5% 1.0 turquoise(parblue)Blue violet(sf) pallidIno
6.25% 1.0 turquoise(parblue) pallidIno
6.25% 1.0 turquoise(parblue) violet(sf) pallidIno
6.25% 1.0 blue pallid
6.25% 1.0 blue violet(sf) pallid
12.5% 1.0 turquoise(parblue)Blue pallid
12.5% 1.0 turquoise(parblue)Blue violet(sf) pallid
6.25% 1.0 turquoise(parblue) pallid
6.25% 1.0 turquoise(parblue) violet(sf) pallid

6.25% 0.1 blue ino
6.25% 0.1 blue violet(sf) ino
12.5% 0.1 turquoise(parblue)Blue ino
12.5% 0.1 turquoise(parblue)Blue violet(sf) ino
6.25% 0.1 turquoise(parblue) ino
6.25% 0.1 turquoise(parblue) violet(sf) ino
6.25% 0.1 blue pallid
6.25% 0.1 blue violet(sf) pallid
12.5% 0.1 turquoise(parblue)Blue pallid
12.5% 0.1 turquoise(parblue)Blue violet(sf) pallid
6.25% 0.1 turquoise(parblue) pallid
6.25% 0.1 turquoise(parblue) violet(sf) pallid

The breeder I bought these pair with told me it will produce Violets and Violet Lacewing ~ is that a correct assumption and that if I mate the male Violet Turquoise Pallidino to a blue hen will produce Violet, Turquoise Violet, Violet Lacewing as well as Blue, Turquoise, Blue Lacewing, Turquoise Lacewing, Albino and Creamino, whewww. Anyway, I hope I'm not boring you, just a beginner needing some info. As soon as I have their picture I will post it likewise. Appreciate it.

[madas]

Madas, sorry to confuse you. I will send a picture of the pair. I paid $500.00 for this pair.

If the hen is really a cleartail violet blue ino you have made a great deal.

What are the parents of the hen? Only to be sure that she is really a cleartail violet blue ino.

I ask because the Ino gen is masking the violett factor. So you can not visually see the violett in this bird.

How can you or your breeder identify the cleartail factor for this bird? An albino is completly white. So you can't see the typical characteristics of a cleartail bird (white head and white tail in the blue series).

So please tell us the parents of your hen.

thx

[baut1957]

Madas ~ thanks, I will try to contact the breeder and ask the make-up of the parents.

[Jay]

Madas ~ thanks, I will try to contact the breeder and ask the make-up of the parents.

Hi Leo,

The male is a Blue/Cleartail. He came from a Blue/Cleartail father and a Blue Cleartail mother.

The hen is a Recessive Albino possibly masking Violet Cleartail but guaranteed to be at least split to Cleartail. Her father is a Blue Cleartail/Rec. Ino and her mother is a VioletGreen/Blue/Cleartail/Rec. Ino

/ = signifies Split


** Cleartail lines all over the world are known to contain Rec. Ino.

[Jay]

But you should know that this pairing (cleartail x cleartail) isn't the best pairing. your offspring will be small and weak, or will die in the egg.
So a better pairing will be split cleartail x cleartail.

Hi Madas,

Why do you say that breeding Cleartail to Cleartail produces small, weak or DIS (dead in shell) offsprings?

The Cleartail mutation has been bred in captivity for twenty years now and have been outcrossed considerably. So if you are referring to possible results of inbreeding, then it is not due to the Cleartail mutation but rather to poor breeding practices of some breeders.

I breed Cleartail on Cleartail and the offsprings are just as big if not bigger than other birds I produce. The two biggest IRNs in my aviary are a Blue Cleartail and a TurquoiseGrey Cleartail.

[baut1957]

Hi Jay,
It's been a while, hope everything is fine.
Leo

[madas]

Hi Madas,

Why do you say that breeding Cleartail to Cleartail produces small, weak or DIS (dead in shell) offsprings?

Because it's my experience with breeders in europe.

The Cleartail mutation has been bred in captivity for twenty years now and have been outcrossed considerably. So if you are referring to possible results of inbreeding, then it is not due to the Cleartail mutation but rather to poor breeding practices of some breeders.

May be your are right. I think some breeders have paired their cleartail offspring together to get quicker more demand mutations and earn quicker and more money.

I breed Cleartail on Cleartail and the offsprings are just as big if not bigger than other birds I produce. The two biggest IRNs in my aviary are a Blue Cleartail and a TurquoiseGrey Cleartail.

then you are a lucky guy.

** Cleartail lines all over the world are known to contain Rec. Ino.

Is this realy true? There did you get this information?

Thx

[Jay]

Hi Madas,

Why do you say that breeding Cleartail to Cleartail produces small, weak or DIS (dead in shell) offsprings?

Because it's my experience with breeders in europe.

The Cleartail mutation has been bred in captivity for twenty years now and have been outcrossed considerably. So if you are referring to possible results of inbreeding, then it is not due to the Cleartail mutation but rather to poor breeding practices of some breeders.

May be your are right. I think some breeders have paired their cleartail offspring together to get quicker more demand mutations and earn quicker and more money.

I breed Cleartail on Cleartail and the offsprings are just as big if not bigger than other birds I produce. The two biggest IRNs in my aviary are a Blue Cleartail and a TurquoiseGrey Cleartail.

then you are a lucky guy.

** Cleartail lines all over the world are known to contain Rec. Ino.

Is this realy true? There did you get this information?

Thx

If your goal is to educate new breeders, you need to emphasize that color traits and size/robustness/health are inherited independent of each other. This is one of the basics of genetics... Gregor Mendel's Law of Independent Assortment...

You cannot relate a gene that determines color with a gene that affects size. They are inherited separately. I've owned Cleartails imported directly from Europe and they are of normal size and health. So just because you've seen them in your flock or in your area doesn't mean it is true everywhere else in the world.

Just a little history on the Cleartail mutation...

As reported by European Babu Chauhan on ABA Journal Vol2No1 (1998), the first Cleartail was brought to Europe (Holland) by an exporter named Kewal. He apparently bought this first Cleartail from a fortune teller in Calcutta, India for a mere $15.

It has been observed that Recessive Inos were produced from this bird's progeny... giving rise to the theories that Rec. Ino and Cleartail genes are alleles of the same locus... like Bronze Fallow being an allele of Rec. Ino.

Over ten years ago, when Cleartails where priced upwards of $10,000.. there were a handful of American breeders who imported Cleartails from different European breeders. Each of these American breeders, (Roger Bringas, Jackie/Mike Gollote, Charles Collins and Lora Hayes) some I have met and some I have spoken to personally claim that their breeding stocks have Rec. Ino in it which is proven by their breeding results.

For more information on this, you can also refer to Terry Martin's Genetics-Psittacine Yahoo Group. This Cleartail-Rec. Ino phenomenon has been discussed extensively over there as well.

Hope that helps.

[madas]

thx Jay. This information is completly new to me (and i think to most other breeders of the cleartail mutation). So to check this i have to pair a rec lutino (rec ino) to a cleartail green. And i should get this:

100% Rec. Lutino / Cleartail (only if cleartail isn't co-dominant to NSLino)

Very interesting.

But how did these breeders get their rec. lutinos (they must have a real rec. lutino)? If you pair cleartail x cleartail you will always get cleartails and no rec. lutinos because the gens are on the same locus (like turquoise x turquoise), right?

edit: i think this is wrong; if cleartail is on the same locus and a allele of NSLino then it should be co-dominant, right? if it's right then i think the cleartails with a light neckring are NSLino Cleartails and the cleartails with the dark neckring are pure cleartails.

if this is also the truth then all cleartail split birds are green / cleartail (without NSLino) and you can get cleartails (with light ringneck) at least from the pairings:

green /NSLino x green / cleartail
green /NSLino x cleartail (without NSLino; dark neckring)

So lets process on: the offspring from a dark neckring Cleartail x wildtyp is 100% split birds of true cleartail with NSLino. The offspring from a light neckring cleartail x wildtyp is 50% split for NSLino and 50% split for true cleartail. So birds that former selled as split for cleartail can now be split for NSLino. IF the green / NSLino are paired back to a dark neckring cleartail you will only get light neckring cleartails and true cleartail splits. but if the green / NSLino are paired back to a light neckring cleartail you can get rec. lutinos, green / NSLino, green / cleartail and light ringneck cleartails.

Did the rec. lutinos (or albinos) are the offspring from a pairing cleartail (light neckring) x cleartail (light neckring)? Or cleartail (dark neckring) x cleartail (dark neckring)?

What was the offspring from cleartail (light neckring) x cleartail (dark neckring)?

Thx in advance.

[Jay]

thx Jay. This information is completly new to me (and i think to most other breeders of the cleartail mutation). So to check this i have to pair a rec lutino (rec ino) to a cleartail green. And i should get this:

100% Rec. Lutino / Cleartail (only if cleartail isn't co-dominant to NSLino)

Very interesting.

Not correct. Both are recessive mutations. So if they are not heteroalleles (co-dominant as you term it), then the result will be:

NSLIno x Cleartail
= 100% Green/NSLIno/Cleartail


But if they are hetero-alleles, result will be as follows:

NSLIno x Cleartail
= 100% Green NSLIno-Cleartail (Visual Cleartail)

** This specimen has one NSLIno gene on one chromosome and a Cleartail gene on the other chromosome. But since they are perceivably alleles of the same locus, then you will not get an offspring that is a visual Green split CLeartail split NSLIno.

** In my opinion, this is probably the genotype of the very first Cleartail that was found in Calcutta. It has one Cleartail gene and one NSLIno gene - a heterozygous visual Cleartail! Hence visual NSLIno offsprings came out of this bird because of the presence of the NSLIno gene.


Moving on... if Cleartail and NSLIno are indeed hetero-alleles, then the following genotypes(genetic code) will produce these corresponding phenotypes(appearance):

Cleartail-Cleartail (Double-Factor Cleartail) or the homozygous Cleartail - this will of course be a visual Cleartail.

Cleartail-NSLIno or heterozygous specimen - this will be a visual Cleartail as well. However, if you look at the pictures of Cleartails even on Jack Bastiaans book, you will notice that there are two phenotypes of Cleartails. One is darker and the other lighter. So perhaps a clue to the two genotypes of visual Cleartails?

Finally, the NSLIno-NSLIno which of course will be the visual Lutinos (or Albinos/Creaminos).

But how did these breeders get their rec. lutinos (they must have a real rec. lutino)? If you pair cleartail x cleartail you will always get cleartails and no rec. lutinos because the gens are on the same locus (like turquoise x turquoise), right?

Correct. I explained this above. A Cleartail x Cleartail pairing will give you 100% Cleartail offsprings. This is assuming the visual Cleartail parents are both DF Cleartails and no heterozygous Cleartail (CLeartail-NSLIno). So yes, it would be similar to breeding DF Turquoise.

edit: i think this is wrong; if cleartail is on the same locus and a allele of NSLino then it should be co-dominant, right? if it's right then i think the cleartails with a light neckring are NSLino Cleartails and the cleartails with the dark neckring are pure cleartails.

Talking to Terry Martin (author of the book Color Mutations & Genetics In Parrots), he also suspects this. But I told him on the Genetics-Psittacine Yahoo Group that I've had visual Cleartail birds with dark neckrings that produce NSLIno offsprings. So with my breeding experience, what you and Terry Martin suggest is not always true.

if this is also the truth then all cleartail split birds are green / cleartail (without NSLino) and you can get cleartails (with light ringneck) at least from the pairings:

green /NSLino x green / cleartail
green /NSLino x cleartail (without NSLino; dark neckring)

You are correct. But some of the birds that are thought to be split Cleartails are actually only split NSLIno.

Additionally, you can also get heterozygous Cleartails (light neckring?) from the pairing NSLIno x DF Cleartail

So lets process on: the offspring from a dark neckring Cleartail x wildtyp is 100% split birds of true cleartail with NSLino.

Incorrect. There should be no NSLIno genes on babies when pairing Wildtype x DF Cleartail.

The offspring from a light neckring cleartail x wildtyp is 50% split for NSLino and 50% split for true cleartail.

Correct.

So birds that former selled as split for cleartail can now be split for NSLino. IF the green / NSLino are paired back to a dark neckring cleartail you will only get light neckring cleartails and true cleartail splits but if the green / NSLino are paired back to a light neckring cleartail you can get rec. lutinos, green / NSLino, green / cleartail and light ringneck cleartails.

Correct. Now we are on the same page

Did the rec. lutinos (or albinos) are the offspring from a pairing cleartail (light neckring) x cleartail (light neckring)? Or cleartail (dark neckring) x cleartail (dark neckring)?

If you are talking about the birds that went to bau1957, the visual Blue NSLIno (Albino) came from a Dark Neckring visual Blue Cleartail male and a VioletGreen/Blue/Cleartail(NSLIno?) female.

What was the offspring from cleartail (light neckring) x cleartail (dark neckring)?

All visual Cleartails. 50% will be heterozygous (Single Factor) and 50% will be homozygous (Double Factor)

Hope that helps

[Recio]

Hi everybody,
Thanks a lot for this great course of genetics.
So we have at least 3 multiallele loci:
1. SL lutino/pallid
2. Blue/turquoise/aqua
3. Cleartail/NSL lutino

For lutino/pallid and blue/turquoise/aqua it seems quite easy to understand since they are variations of the same schema (different depth or distribution of colours) but cleartail and NSL lutino being alleles of the same gene is really surprising to me since the phenotype of the homozigous expression of each allele (cleartail or lutino) is very different. How could it be explained? If looking at your results, Jay, it seems that cleartail would be dominant to NSL lutino as turquoise is dominant to blue.
Madas said:

But how did these breeders get their rec. lutinos (they must have a real rec. lutino)? If you pair cleartail x cleartail you will always get cleartails and no rec. lutinos because the gens are on the same locus (like turquoise x turquoise), right?

Not right: If you pair cleartail to cleartail and both are heteroallelic you will get:
50% heteroallelic cleartails
25% homozigous cleartails
25% NSL lutino
I guess this is the way that the firsts NSL lutino were bred.

If I am not wrong it could happen that pairing two wild IRN supossed to be split cleartail (both from heteroallelic cleartail parents) we will only be able to get NSL lutino, and that pairing NSL lutino to a homozigous cleartail we will get 100% phenotype cleartail (heteroallelic).

[ringy76]

oh my gosh.. think i´ve got a headache... i´ve got totally lost around the third reply lol... hope i´ll get it someday

[Jay]

Hi everybody,
Thanks a lot for this great course of genetics.
So we have at least 3 multiallele loci:
1. SL lutino/pallid
2. Blue/turquoise/aqua
3. Cleartail/NSL lutino

I would like to emphasize that Cleartail and NSLIno as heteroalleles is NOT yet proven but is suspected. However, all breeding experiences with Cleartail that I have heard of so far supports this theory.

To prove this, one has to breed an NSLIno (or Bronze Fallow for that matter) to a visual Cleartail. As long as no wildtype (Green) results from this pairing, then the theory holds.

For lutino/pallid and blue/turquoise/aqua it seems quite easy to understand since they are variations of the same schema (different depth or distribution of colours) but cleartail and NSL lutino being alleles of the same gene is really surprising to me since the phenotype of the homozigous expression of each allele (cleartail or lutino) is very different. How could it be explained?

Bronze Fallow and NSLIno are PROVEN heteroalleles and yet their homozygous phenotypes also differ considerably. Remember that heteroalleles is a result of the genes' location (locus) in the chromosome. These genes don't necessarily relate to each other as far as their effects are on the metabolic pathways of pigmentation production.

Bear in mind that the chromosomes are just a genetic blueprint. No actual color production happens in the chromosomes.

If looking at your results, Jay, it seems that cleartail would be dominant to NSL lutino as turquoise is dominant to blue.

I believe Madas used the term co-dominant to indicate that neither mutation masks the effect of the other. The suspected resulting phenotype of a heterozygous specimen is somewhere between a Dark Cleartail and an NSLIno.

Madas said:

But how did these breeders get their rec. lutinos (they must have a real rec. lutino)? If you pair cleartail x cleartail you will always get cleartails and no rec. lutinos because the gens are on the same locus (like turquoise x turquoise), right?

Not right: If you pair cleartail to cleartail and both are heteroallelic you will get:
50% heteroallelic cleartails
25% homozigous cleartails
25% NSL lutino
I guess this is the way that the firsts NSL lutino were bred.

It is important to note that if Cleartail and NSLIno are indeed allelic to each other, then using the term Cleartail denotes a homozygous specimen and CleartailNSLIno as the heterozygous. Same as a Turquoise being the homozygous and TurquoiseBlue as the heterozygous version.

So based on the above, breeding Cleartail on Cleartail produces 100% Cleartails. Breeding CleartailNSLIno with CleartailNSLIno will produce the results you noted above.

If I am not wrong it could happen that pairing two wild IRN supossed to be split cleartail (both from heteroallelic cleartail parents) we will only be able to get NSL lutino

Explain your statement above ... because if the splits you are pairing are in fact Green/Cleartail x Green/Cleartail then you should produce 25% Cleartail (homozygous) and no NSLInos.

, and that pairing NSL lutino to a homozigous cleartail we will get 100% phenotype cleartail (heteroallelic).

Correct.

[julie]

oh my gosh.. think i´ve got a headache... i´ve got totally lost around the third reply lol... hope i´ll get it someday

Me too im sure they will be beautiful babies

[madas]

Hi all,

this topic is really fascinating. I have contacted some breeders here in europe. And they told me that there is the same experience here in europe.
Sjack Bastiaan and Willy Eckelloo have breed lutino and albino from cleartail pairings. In germany there are some breeders with lutino and cremeino offspring from cleartail pairings (these birds are sexed as males). the lutino is the offspring from cleartail x cleartail (but no statement about the neckring yet, but it is ask for). CremeIno is the offspring from turquoise / cleartail x cleartail grey (so here no chance for a statement about the neckring). But you can only get a cremeino offspring if the turquoise / cleartail is split NSLino instead of cleartail (for the commonly known theorie we think split cleartail birds are split cleartail but they can be split for NSLino if the new theorie is right).

So lets summarize my view:

If cleartail and NSLino are heteroalleles then cleartail is/should be co-dominant to NSLino (analog blue and turquoise or ino and pallid; but i prefer ino and pallid). So the light neckring cleartail phenotyp is a mix of NSLino and cleartail and the NSLino factor is more visible because it is homozygot (like the pallidIno; because pallidINo is the mix between lutino and pallid birds). the dark neckring cleartail is a mix too but both factors are shown equal.

We will get two types of split birds: green / NSLino and green / cleartail. There is no chance to get an green / NSLino / cleartail.

If you pair this split birds we get this offspring:

green / NSLino x green / NSLino
50% green / NSLino
25% green
25% NSLino

green / NSLino x NSLino
50% green / NSLino
50% NSLino

NSLino x NSLino
100% NSLino

green / cleartail x green / cleartail
50% green / cleartail
25% green
25% cleartail

green / cleartail x cleartail
50% green / cleartail
50% cleartail

cleartail x cleartail
100% cleartail

This results are what we know from the cleartail mutation (so no changes here).

Now if you pair a NSLino bird to a cleartail bird you will get the following offspring:

green / NSLino x green / cleartail
25% green /NSLino
25% green
25% NSLino cleartail (NSLino homozygot; cleartail heterozygot)
25% green / cleartail

NSLino x green / cleartail
50% green /NSLino
50% NSLino cleartail (NSLino homozygot; cleartail heterozygot)

green / NSLino x cleartail (homozygot)
50% NSLino cleartail (NSLino homozygot; cleartail heterozygot)
50% green / cleartail

NSLino (homozygot) x NSLino cleartail (NSLino homozygot; cleartail heterozygot)
50% NSLino cleartail (NSLino homozygot; cleartail heterozygot)
50% NSLino

cleartail (homozygot) x NSLino cleartail (NSLino homozygot; cleartail heterozygot)
50% NSLino cleartail (NSLino homozygot; cleartail heterozygot (EF))
50% cleartail (homozygot)

NSLino cleartail (NSLino homozygot; cleartail heterozygot) x NSLino cleartail (NSLino homozygot; cleartail heterozygot)
50% NSLino cleartail (NSLino homozygot; cleartail heterozygot)
25% cleartail (homozygot)
25% NSLino (homozygot)

@Jay: Please can you ask the breeder with the lutino or albino offspring from cleartails how the parents look and from which pairing the parents was breed.

[Recio]

Hi Madas,

So lets summarize my view:

If cleartail and NSLino are heteroalleles then cleartail is/should be co-dominant to NSLino (analog blue and turquoise or ino and pallid; but i prefer ino and pallid).

Heteroalleles can be codominants (as pallid and ino: when both are carried we get an intermediate bird: pallidino) or dominants (as turquoise and blue: when both are carried it is only the dominant allele which is expressed: turquoise)

So the light neckring cleartail phenotyp is a mix of NSLino and cleartail

I understand what you mean and I agree: light neckring cleartail phenotype would be the expression of an heteroallelic NSLino-cleartail, and so, NSLino and cleartail would be codominants (to be proven since Jay's results differ)

and the NSLino factor is more visible because it is homozygot (like the pallidIno; because pallidINo is the mix between lutino and pallid birds).

Here I am lost: to me homozygot means that the same allele is present in the same locus of each cromosome. So an homozygous NSLino should genetically be NSLino-NSLino and its colour should be lutino. May be you are meaning codominant when saying homozygot?

the dark neckring cleartail is a mix too but both factors are shown equal

To me, as far as I have understood from Jay's answer, the dark neckring cleartail would be the expresion of homozygous cleartail (genetically cleartail-cleartail, without any NSLino gen)
In fact I think we are meaning the same things but with different words since we come from different countries/languages, and our internal language processing is not exactly the same. The prove: I agree 100% for your offspring results.

[madas]

If you are talking about the birds that went to bau1957, the visual Blue NSLIno (Albino) came from a Dark Neckring visual Blue Cleartail male and a VioletGreen/Blue/Cleartail(NSLIno?) female.

How dark is the neckring? Is it black or dark grey (i know that black is dark gray too ? Have you a picture of this cock (or is it the cleartail blue cock from your website?)?

I have been told that the german pair turquoise / "cleartail" x "cleartail" gray with the cremeino offspring had a 1,0 dark neckring cleartail offspring in 2007.

So my view seems to be not correct at all. ????

@Jay: what was your thought? Both cleartail and NSLino are recessive?!?
And by chance the two gens was combined in the bird from Calcutta.
But if both are recessive and not alleles of the same locus then the today cleartail offspring results are not fitting. Normally today we have the same portion cleartail and split cleartail from a pair cleartail x split cleartail (often more cleartails). if both are recessive then the portion of Lutinos should be higher or they should have occured more. And the portion of cleartail should be smaller.

Hmm...

[madas]

the dark neckring cleartail is a mix too but both factors are shown equal

To me, as far as I have understood from Jay's answer, the dark neckring cleartail would be the expresion of homozygous cleartail (genetically cleartail-cleartail, without any NSLino gen)
In fact I think we are meaning the same things but with different words since we come from different countries/languages, and our internal language processing is not exactly the same. The prove: I agree 100% for your offspring results.

Yeah. Your right. The dark neckring cleartail should be a homozygot cleartail without NSLino. So it was my mistake. Thanks.

[Recio]

Bronze Fallow and NSLIno are PROVEN heteroalleles and yet their homozygous phenotypes also differ considerably.

Hi Jay, could you further develop this point?

Remember that heteroalleles is a result of the genes' location (locus) in the chromosome. These genes don't necessarily relate to each other as far as their effects are on the metabolic pathways of pigmentation production.

I agree but most mutations depend on a single nucleotide mutation, just affecting one aminoacide of a protein, but changing its spatial configuration and thus its fonction. In fact this is the way most alleles have appeared. Of course there can be big transfers of genomic material to a locus inducing important changes in the protein to be coded but it is much less frequent.

Bear in mind that the chromosomes are just a genetic blueprint. No actual color production happens in the chromosomes.

Of course. In abstract: cromosomes hold genes, which code for proteins, which are synthesized in ribosomes, and catalize or act as substracts for methabolic pathways leading to final colouring proteins (psitacine, melanine, ...), changes in distribution of these proteins or altering feather structure.

[Jay]

@Jay: Please can you ask the breeder with the lutino or albino offspring from cleartails how the parents look and from which pairing the parents was breed.

Madas,

I am the breeder as I have produced NSL Lutinos and NSL Albinos from my Cleartail lines. One of the visual male father has a dark neckring that's why I said before that Dark Neckring does not necessarily indicate homozygous Cleartail.

The father of the NSLInos is the Blue Cleartail to the right with the dark neckring. The Blue Cleartail on the left I sold off so I have no idea what it produced. Notice that it has a lighter neckring and body color compared to his brother on the right.





In PallidInos and TurquoiseBlues, the heterozygous specimen has a color somewhere in between Cleartail and NSLIno (not necessarily always midway).... so why not Cleartails also? In other words, Dark Neckring Cleartails can be homozygous or heterozygous... but Light Neckring Cleartails are definitely heterozygous.

[Jay]

and the NSLino factor is more visible because it is homozygot (like the pallidIno; because pallidINo is the mix between lutino and pallid birds).

Here I am lost: to me homozygot means that the same allele is present in the same locus of each cromosome. So an homozygous NSLino should genetically be NSLino-NSLino and its colour should be lutino. May be you are meaning codominant when saying homozygot?

Madas,

NSLIno is not homozygous in your example above. There is only ONE NSLIno gene present in one chromosome. The other chromosome contains the Cleartail gene. That is what confused Recio. But Recio is correct. A homozygous bird should have NSLIno-NSLIno, Cleartail-Cleartail, Turquoise-Turquoise (etc) on its chromosomal pairs. Heterozygous birds will have Cleartail-NSLIno, TurquoiseBlue, etc.


On your breeding results below, on the bolded/highlighted offsprings, both NSLIno and Cleartail are heterozygous. I changed it accordingly. You can only have a MAXIMUM of two genes of the same locus in the autosomal chromosomes in any given living creature.

green / NSLino x cleartail (homozygot)
50% NSLino cleartail (NSLino heterozygous; cleartail heterozygot)
50% green / cleartail

NSLino (homozygot) x NSLino cleartail (NSLino homozygot; cleartail heterozygot)
50% NSLino cleartail (NSLino heterozygous; cleartail heterozygot)
50% NSLino

cleartail (homozygot) x NSLino cleartail (NSLino homozygot; cleartail heterozygot)
50% NSLino cleartail (NSLino heterozygous; cleartail heterozygot (EF))
50% cleartail (homozygot)

It is possible to have one gene of a locus but these traits has got to be present in sex-linked chromosomes, or the hemizigous specimens (female birds). An example of this is Cinnamon. Only one gene needs to be present in hens to produce a Cinnamon colored bird.

[Jay]

@Jay: what was your thought? Both cleartail and NSLino are recessive?!?
And by chance the two gens was combined in the bird from Calcutta.
But if both are recessive and not alleles of the same locus then the today cleartail offspring results are not fitting. Normally today we have the same portion cleartail and split cleartail from a pair cleartail x split cleartail (often more cleartails). if both are recessive then the portion of Lutinos should be higher or they should have occured more. And the portion of cleartail should be smaller

I think the first Cleartail that came from Calcutta was a heterozygous visual Cleartail with genotype Cleartail-NSLIno. Both Cleartail and NSLIno are established autosomal recessives traits with respect to the wildtype. That is already proven.

I think the reason that there are more Cleartails than NSLInos is because NSLInos are sold off as pets which seldom breed. Cleartails on the other hand are bred as much as possible because they are rarer, more beautiful and more expensive.

[Jay]

Bronze Fallow and NSLIno are PROVEN heteroalleles and yet their homozygous phenotypes also differ considerably.

Hi Jay, could you further develop this point?

Recio,

In Indian Ringnecks, Bronze Fallow is an allele of the NSLIno locus. See this link http://www.gencalc.com/gen/eng_genc.php?sp=0PsitIR and look under the NSLIno selection. You will see Bronze Fallow there as an allele.

Among White Eye-Ring Lovebirds, Bronze Fallow is also an allele of NSLIno.

[madas]

Bronze Fallow and NSLIno are PROVEN heteroalleles and yet their homozygous phenotypes also differ considerably.

Hi Jay, could you further develop this point?

Recio,

In Indian Ringnecks, Bronze Fallow is an allele of the NSLIno locus. See this link http://www.gencalc.com/gen/eng_genc.php?sp=0PsitIR and look under the NSLIno selection. You will see Bronze Fallow there as an allele.

Among White Eye-Ring Lovebirds, Bronze Fallow is also an allele of NSLIno.

And so i thought cleartail is an allele of the NSLIno locus too. ?!?!?

That's why i wrote NSLino homozygot and cleartail heterozygot for NSLino Cleartail (light neckring). The gen codes i thought of should look like this(analog to blue and turquoise or ino and pallid):



Perhaps i have made a mistake to use the word homozygot for a single factor (ct or a). So homozygot is normally used for the hole gen with all of its allele. And then you are right. a/a and act/act are homozygot and act/act+ is heterozygot.

And here are the gencodes for the split birds:



I hope now we are talking the same language (gen code ).

And here are some pairing examples:

















@Jay: Which eye color does your lutino offspring have?

[Recio]

Hi Madas,
I am lost about the symbols you use. A priori the symbols to be use should be:
NSLino ..... a
Bronze fallow ...... a (bz)
Cleartail ...... ct (if consider as an independent mutation)
Cleartail ..... a(ct) (if considered as an allele of the locus coding for NSLino, just like bronze fallow).

The fact that there could be 3 possible alleles for the same locus (found in two paired cromosomes) does not mean that we can found the 3 alleles expresed at the same time. There are only 2 alleles that can be expressed at the same time.

The question is simple: has anybody paired a bronze fallow (homozygous) to a clairtail (homozygous). If the offspring phenotype is the wild type, then they are not alleles of the same locus, and thus cleartail and NSLino are not alleles. If the offspring is:
1. Cleartail: they are alleles and cleartail would act as dominant to bronze fallow.
2. Bronze fallow: they are alleles and bronze fallow would act as dominant to cleartail.
3. Between both phenotypes (?) : they are alleles and act as codominants.

Of course to test it, breeders must be sure that their birds are homozygous, since if they are heterozygous, and the 3 mutations are different alleles of the same locus, we could find some funny results as follows:
Cleartail (heteroallelic cleartail-NSLino) X Bronze fallow (heteroallelic bronze fallow-NSLino, not sure his phenotype) would produce:
25% Heterozygous cleartail-bronze fallow (phenotype ?)
25% Heterozygous cleartail-NSLino (phenotype ligth claitail, like one of the parents)
25% Heterozygous NSLino-Bronze fallow (I do not know which is dominant, just like the other parent))
25% Homozygous NSLino (lutino)

[madas]

Hi Recio,

i only know one breeder here in europe who has bronze fallow birds. Sjack Bastiaan. But i dont know if he has tried to pair a cleartail to bronze fallow.

So i can ask him. But it will take some time.

[Recio]

Does anybody know how NSLino and bronze fallow are related? I mean is there a dominant one or are they codominants?
Thanks

[madas]

I think (and the GenCalc too) that Bronze fallow is co-dominant to NSLino like turquoise is co-dominant to blue.

[Jay]

@Jay: Which eye color does your lutino offspring have?

From afar, the NSLInos that I produce look the same as SLInos. But if you look closely at their feathers, there seem to be less residual melanin... manifested by less grey stains on Blue series birds and less or absence of greenish sheen on NSL Lutinos.

[Jay]

The question is simple: has anybody paired a bronze fallow (homozygous) to a clairtail (homozygous).

I think the reasons no one (on record) has paired Cleartail with Bronze Fallow or NSLIno are:

1. These mutations are rare.
2. Cleartail is still the most expensive and most sought after mutation (at least in the USA) and no one would want to test breed their expensive birds and risk getting wildtype Greens.

I personally suspected this heteroallelic relationship years back but I never ventured to breed an NSLIno with Cleartail for the reasons above. Next year, I plan to breed a 3 year old NSLIno male that I have been saving with a Cleartail hen.

[Recio]

I think (and the GenCalc too) that Bronze fallow is co-dominant to NSLino like turquoise is co-dominant to blue.

Hi Madas;
It seems to me that turquoise is dominant to blue since you can not make the difference between SF and DF turquoise birds. This is also referred in Bastiaan page: http://home.wanadoo.nl/psittaculaworld/ ... rameri.htm

Curiously in Bastiaan page it is not said that bronze fallow is an allele of cleartail and all the combinations with other mutations have been deleted (?)

[Jay]

Curiously in Bastiaan page it is not said that bronze fallow is an allele of cleartail and all the combinations with other mutations have been deleted (?)

The allelic relationship of Cleartail and Bronze Fallow (and NSLIno) is just a theory that I suspected (perhaps a few other breeders as well) after producing a disproportionate amount of NSLIno offsprings from Cleartail pairings. So why will that end up in Bastiaan's book which contains information that are over 7 years old?

The allelic relationship between NSLIno and Bronze_Fallow mutations among several psittacine species was proven by MUTAVI and others sometime in 2004 or 2006 I think. So that's why that information is not present in Bastiaan's book which was published earlier.

[Recio]

@Jay: Which eye color does your lutino offspring have?

From afar, the NSLInos that I produce look the same as SLInos. But if you look closely at their feathers, there seem to be less residual melanin... manifested by less grey stains on Blue series birds and less or absence of greenish sheen on NSL Lutinos.

Hi Jay,
Do you know if somebody has paired 1.0 NSLino/cin to 0.1 cinamon/NSLino? Just wondering if you can get lacewing birds like with SLino. I know that they could not be called true lacewing since there would not be crossing over, but I am speaking of their phenotype: would they be lutino, something between green and ino, or something between the true lacewing and ino, since there would be less residual phaeomelanin?

I know this is out of our present subject, but you have written about residual melanin in NSLino and ... lacewing colouring is a recurrent subject to me since the trouble of the metabolic pathway is not clear at all.

Something else: which one is dominat: bronze fallow or NSLino? Or are they codominants?

Thank you

[Recio]

Curiously in Bastiaan page it is not said that bronze fallow is an allele of cleartail and all the combinations with other mutations have been deleted (?)

The allelic relationship of Cleartail and Bronze Fallow (and NSLIno) is just a theory that I suspected (perhaps a few other breeders as well) after producing a disproportionate amount of NSLIno offsprings from Cleartail pairings. So why will that end up in Bastiaan's book which contains information that are over 7 years old?

The allelic relationship between NSLIno and Bronze_Fallow mutations among several psittacine species was proven by MUTAVI and others sometime in 2004 or 2006 I think. So that's why that information is not present in Bastiaan's book which was published earlier.

Hi Jay I was not speaking of his book but of his web page, which I supossed regularly updated with the new results. It seems that I was wrong.

[madas]

I think (and the GenCalc too) that Bronze fallow is co-dominant to NSLino like turquoise is co-dominant to blue.

Hi Madas;
It seems to me that turquoise is dominant to blue since you can not make the difference between SF and DF turquoise birds. This is also referred in Bastiaan page: http://home.wanadoo.nl/psittaculaworld/ ... rameri.htm

Thats right. Co-Dominant meens that turquoise is dominant over blue if your bird carries the blue and turquoise factor. I think you mixed up co-dominant with incomplete dominant (like the violet factor). If we could see a difference between EF and DF turquoise birds so blue and turquoise are co-incomplete dominant . But they aren't (But You never know.).

btw: This "http://home.wanadoo.nl/psittaculaworld/ ... rameri.htm" is not the homepage of Sjack. It is from Sahir Rana.

The homepage of Sjack is: http://www.aziatische-parkieten.nl/

[Recio]

I think (and the GenCalc too) that Bronze fallow is co-dominant to NSLino like turquoise is co-dominant to blue.

Hi Madas;
It seems to me that turquoise is dominant to blue since you can not make the difference between SF and DF turquoise birds. This is also referred in Bastiaan page: http://home.wanadoo.nl/psittaculaworld/ ... rameri.htm

Thats right. Co-Dominant meens that turquoise is dominant over blue if your bird carries the blue and turquoise factor. I think you mixed up co-dominant with incomplete dominant (like the violet factor). If we could see a difference between EF and DF turquoise birds so blue and turquoise are co-incomplete dominant . But they aren't (But You never know.).

btw: This "http://home.wanadoo.nl/psittaculaworld/ ... rameri.htm" is not the homepage of Sjack. It is from Sahir Rana.

The homepage of Sjack is: http://www.aziatische-parkieten.nl/

Hi Madas,
After reading and re-reading many times about co-incomplete dominance my conclusion is that you are an artist of english language but you aren't (but you never know).

Thank you for the correction about Bastiaan web page, but at present it is under construction and not really available.

[madas]

@Recio: Do you think that pallid (lacewing) is really co-dominant? It is commonly known that you can't see a difference between EF and DF turquoise birds and so turquoise should be co-dominant to blue. But how is it for the pallid series. there are lutinos (without pallid), pallidinos (heterozygot) and pallid (homozygot) birds. All three birds look different. So here the description co-dominant is not really correct. What do you think?

[Jay]

@Recio: Do you think that pallid (lacewing) is really co-dominant?

Co-Dominance means there is an intermediate phenotype when two color genes are expressed. This relationship is between two mutant genes. So yes, Pallid and Ino are co-dominant to each other thus producing the intermediate phenotype we know as PallidIno.

It is commonly known that you can't see a difference between EF and DF turquoise birds and so turquoise should be co-dominant to blue.

Co-Dominance does NOT mean Complete Dominant. You are mixing terminologies here. Dominant (AKA Complete Dominant) is a Mode of Inheritance and is a relationship between a mutant gene compared to the Wild-Type allele. For example, Violet and Grey factors are Dominant (or Complete Dominant) mutations with respect to the wildtype. If these mutations are present in a bird, albeit even in just one chromosome (SF), they will be expressed. Hence there is no such thing as wildtype split to any of these two Dominant mutations because the presence of even just one mutated allele will dominate the wildtype allele residing on the locus on the opposite chromosome.

Incomplete-Dominant is a sub-classification of a Dominant mutation where there is a phenotypical difference between a Single Factor bird and a Double Factor bird such as the case of the Dark Factor (ie. Cobalt and Mauve).

But how is it for the pallid series. there are lutinos (without pallid), pallidinos (heterozygot) and pallid (homozygot) birds. All three birds look different. So here the description co-dominant is not really correct. What do you think?

Not really sure what you mean here but PallidIno is an intermediate phenotype between the two heteroallelic alleles (Ino and Pallid) that act co-dominant to each other.

[Recio]

@Recio: Do you think that pallid (lacewing) is really co-dominant? It is commonly known that you can't see a difference between EF and DF turquoise birds and so turquoise should be co-dominant to blue. But how is it for the pallid series. there are lutinos (without pallid), pallidinos (heterozygot) and pallid (homozygot) birds. All three birds look different. So here the description co-dominant is not really correct. What do you think?

Hi Madas

Some definitions taken from MUTAVI + some examples to make easier (I know you know ):

Allele: Just a specific variation of a gene. So a gene can display different variations or alleles. Examples: blue, turquoise and aqua are alleles of the same gene. Pallid and SLino are also alleles of the same gene. Similarly for bronze fallow, NSLino and probably cleartail.

Locus: A location on a chromosome or chromosome pair. A specific place that defines an allele. One locus (or loci in plural) is the physical region of the cromosomes where a gen is located. One locus can only hold an allele of a gene. Since autosomal cromosomes are paired, there are two loci for a gen: if both loci hold the same allele it is called homoallelic or homozygous (ex: blue IRN, DF turquoise IRN); if the alleles are different it is said heteroallelic or heterozygous (ex: SF turquoise IRN).
If leading with sex cromosomes, keep in mind that they are not paired in females, and so there is only one locus: we speak of hemizygous (ex: pallid IRN female, lutino IRN female). In males it is just like for autosomal cromosomes (ex: pallid and lutino males are homozygous, pallidino males are heterozygous)

Co-Dominance: The lack of dominant or recessive traits allowing both alleles in a chromosome pair to express themselves. Co-dominance means equal-dominance, that is no one of the alleles will block the expression of the other, both alleles will be expresed and the result will be a phenotype (physical appearence) midway between the whole expression of each allele (ex: pallid and ino are co-dominants, and when they are present at the same time (heterozygous bird) we do not have a lutino bird nor a pallid, but something between: a pallidino.

Dominant: The opposite of recessive. A gene that is visible when paired with other genes. The most expressive gene at the allele of a chromosome pair. In teh blue family: turquoise is dominant to aqua and blue, aqua acts as dominat to blue and as recesive to turquoise. So the order of dominance will be: turquoise>aqua>blue. Ex: the phenotype of a turquoise-aqua IRN, a turquoise-blue and DF turquoise will be the same, since turquoise is dominant.

Recessive: Referring to an altered gene which does not shows its effect if the bird carrying that gene also has an unaltered gene. Examples above.

I hope things will be clear

[Jay]

Hi Madas,
I am lost about the symbols you use. A priori the symbols to be use should be:
NSLino ..... a
Bronze fallow ...... a (bz)
Cleartail ...... ct (if consider as an independent mutation)
Cleartail ..... a(ct) (if considered as an allele of the locus coding for NSLino, just like bronze fallow).

I don't think it is necessary to add the genotypes of the Dark Factor (wildtype) and blue locus (wildtype) -- D+_bl+/D+_bl+. This adds confusion. Bastiaan and certain South African breeders use this system I think to identify Green and Blue series birds and the type of linkage on the Dark and Blue locus. But I find it unnecessary especially when not all birds carry such mutations. This is also confusing to neophytes.

[Recio]

Incomplete-Dominant is a sub-classification of a Dominant mutation where there is a phenotypical difference between a Single Factor bird and a Double Factor bird such as the case of the Dark Factor (ie. Cobalt and Mauve).

This can also apply to the example of violet Madas wrote about.

[Jay]

Incomplete-Dominant is a sub-classification of a Dominant mutation where there is a phenotypical difference between a Single Factor bird and a Double Factor bird such as the case of the Dark Factor (ie. Cobalt and Mauve).

This can also apply to the example of violet Madas wrote about.

Hmm... not sure about Violet being incomplete dominant. I've bred dozens of Violets and DF and SF Violets sometimes can't be determined visually. Several American Violet breeders who have bred hundreds of Violets over the years say the same. DF Violets tend to be Darker with a greyish feather sheen but this not ALWAYS the case, unlike in Cobalts/Mauve.

[Recio]

Incomplete-Dominant is a sub-classification of a Dominant mutation where there is a phenotypical difference between a Single Factor bird and a Double Factor bird such as the case of the Dark Factor (ie. Cobalt and Mauve).

This can also apply to the example of violet Madas wrote about.

Hmm... not sure about Violet being incomplete dominant. I've bred dozens of Violets and DF and SF Violets sometimes can't be determined visually. Several American Violet breeders who have bred hundreds of Violets over the years say the same. DF Violets tend to be Darker with a greyish feather sheen but this not ALWAYS the case, unlike in Cobalts/Mauve.

So lets's say almost-quasy-incomplete dominant. In fact it just mean that there is a whole array of different % expression depending on what genes we speak about.

PS: Always waiting to know which one of NSLino or bronze fallow is dominant?
Thanks

[Jay]

So lets's say almost-quasy-incomplete dominant. In fact it just mean that there is a whole array of different % expression depending on what genes we speak about.

Either you're Incomplete Dominant or not. No quasi because this will only add more confusion. If there are offsprings that cannot be determined whether SF or DF, then technically the mutation does not qualify as Incomplete Dominant.

PS: Always waiting to know which one of NSLino or bronze fallow is dominant?
Thanks

According to MUTAVI, pairing Bronze Fallow and NSLIno will produce an intermediate phenotype. So this means they are co-dominant to each other.