genetic question

[fred]

i have a blue split to ino and cinn male with a green cinn split blue hen

they produced 3 chicks 1 blue 1 green and 1 light shade of green cinn lighter then hen.

when i placed the pair into the genetic calc one of the female chicks could be an ino cinnamon does this look like a very light cinnamon?

also i dont understand how this ino cinnamon is produced . i thought the male in this pair blue/cinn/ino would either give a chick a cinn or a ino gene but not both at the same time since they are both sex linked mutations. I am thinking of how the punnet square works . I have the same question about ino lacewings

thanks to all

[Recio]

Hi Fred, I will try to answer

i have a blue split to ino and cinn male with a green cinn split blue hen

they produced 3 chicks 1 blue 1 green and 1 light shade of green cinn lighter then hen.

when i placed the pair into the genetic calc one of the female chicks could be an ino cinnamon does this look like a very light cinnamon?

The light green chick is a green cinamon female. Since the mother does not carry the cinamon gene, and cinamon is a sex-linked mutation, male chicks (XX) will not express cinamon. Females ino-cinamon will be visuals ino since ino inhibits production of melanine, and thus, cinamon (incomplete oxidation of melanine) can not be expressed.

also i dont understand how this ino cinnamon is produced . i thought the male in this pair blue/cinn/ino would either give a chick a cinn or a ino gene but not both at the same time since they are both sex linked mutations.

Yes, they are both sex-linked mutations: it means that they are carried by the X cromosome but it does not mean that they are located in the same locus (little piece of cromosome carrying a gene). So the same cromosome can carry both mutations.

I have the same question about ino lacewings

Ino lacewings is quite different:

1. Lacewing is the old name for lime or pallids. It should not be used since lacewing in budgerians is a cinamon-ino cross-over, and it will be confusing.

2. Pallid is an incomplete allele of ino (as turkoise is of blue). It means that pallid does not allowed complete removal of melanine, and birds will show a colour between green and yellow. In this case an X cromosome can only carry the pallid or the ino mutation, since both are alleles of the same gene, and thus are located in the same locus.

3. If a male carries a pallid allele in one X cromosome and an ino in the other, he will display a yellow colour mid-way between pallids and ino. It is called pallid-ino. Females can only be pallids or inos, since they only carry one X cromosome.

This question was treated several days ago by Fah and Jay:
http://www.indianringneck.com/board/vie ... php?t=7378

I hope it helps you

Recio

[Recio]

Hi Fred, this is Recio again

I was wrong when I told you that you can not obtain a male cinnamon from your pair since the cinamon gene is present in both parents (I did not notice that the female was also cinamon). So the question is what could it be this chick which is lighter than the mother, that is lighter than a green-cin? Possibilities:
1. It is a green cin which will become darker with age.
2. The father could be split pallid and the chick could be a pallid or a cin-pallid female.
3. May be it is just a cin-green chick and the mother is darker because it carries the dark factor (dark green cin) or the grey (grey-green-cin)

I guess there are other possibilities

I hope that the rest of the answers were right

[Jay]

If the genetics of the father is correct, then the baby who is lighter than the mother is a Cinnamon-Ino crossover offspring, also known as the True Lacewings.

There is a 0.75% chance of this offspring being produced. I've discussed the phenomenon of crossovers many times in the past so do a search on my past posts.

Just an important note, Sex-Linked Ino cannot mask brown melanin (Cinnamon) and a substantial amount of this pigment is left behind on the offspring's feathers.

[Recio]

Hi Jay

Just an important note, Sex-Linked Ino cannot mask brown melanin (Cinnamon) and a substantial amount of this pigment is left behind on the offspring's feathers.

I have seen the same comment in Mutavi genetics about SLI being unable to mask brown melanin, but I do not understand why. Another question: which is the difference between cin and cin+? These are the genotypes reported by mutavi as possibilities de ino-pallid-cin interactions in males. Could you explain us a bit more? I am lost after the third combination.

Possible male mutant phenotypes

1. Z ino / Z ino (homozygous ino)

2. Z ino pd / Z ino (pallid split ino named pallidino)

3. Z ino pd / Z ino pd (homozygous pallid, darker phenotype than 2, males show a darker neck ring.)

4. Z cin_ino / Z cin_ino (cinnamon-ino combo, cinnamon visible in phenotype)

5. Z cin_ino pd / Z cin_ino (same phenotype as 4., possibly somewhat darker, not the same inheritance)

6. Z cin_ino / Z cin+_ino (same phenotype as 1., not the same inheritance)

7. Z cin_ino pd / Z cin+_ino (same phenotype as 2., not the same inheritance)

8. Z cin_ino pd / Z cin_ino pd (same phenotype as 5., probably darker, not the same inheritance)

9. Z cin+_ino pd / Z cin_ino (same phenotype as 2., not the same inheritance)

10. Z cin+_ino pd / Z cin_ino pd (same phenotype as 3., not the same inheritance)

[Recio]

Hi everybody

After looking in old posts I have remarked that the + means the gene wild type (non mutated); that is cin+ would be the wild type (non mutated) of the gene which mutation codes for cinnamon color. It sounds complicated but it isn't. Some exemples:
cin+/cin+ ..... wild type (green)
cin+/cin or cin/cin+ ...... wild type split cinnamon (green)
cin/cin ..... homozigous cinnamon (just in males, light green)

... and similarly for lutino:
ino+/ino+ ..... wild type (green)
ino+/ino or ino/ino+ ...... wild type split ino (green)
ino/ino ..... homozigous ino (just in males, lutino)

So, when looking closer to possible interactions between cinnamon mutation and ino/pallid mutations in males, we can do easier saying:

1. Z ino / Z ino (homozygous ino)

2. Z ino pd / Z ino (pallid split ino named pallidino)

3. Z ino pd / Z ino pd (pallid)

Lacewing types:

4. Z cin_ino / Z cin_ino .............. cinnamon-ino lacewing .. lighter?
5. Z cin_ino pd / Z cin_ino ......... pallidino lacewing .......... medium?
8. Z cin_ino pd / Z cin_ino pd ..... pallid lacewing .............. darker?

6. Z cin_ino / Z cin+_ino (ino split cin)

Pallidino split cin types:

7. Z cin_ino pd / Z cin+_ino (cin_ino pd in cis-linkage AND cin-ino in trans-linkage).
9. Z cin+_ino pd / Z cin_ino (cin_ino pd in trans-linkage AND cin-ino in cis-linkage)

10. Z cin+_ino pd / Z cin_ino pd (pallid split cin)

I have kept the numbers of the MUTAVI list to check easier.

Since the opaline locus is in the sexual cromosomes also, it can also present the same type of interactions that the cin related to the pallid/ino gene/locus. And there must also be interactions between the cin and the opaline genes. When thinking about all the possible combinations between the three of them (cin, opaline and ino/pallid) I wonder if the genetic calculator would be able to take them out.

Waiting for comments/corrections.

[Jay]

I have seen the same comment in Mutavi genetics about SLI being unable to mask brown melanin, but I do not understand why.

Sex-Linked Ino codes for MATP which is a transport mechanism for tyrosinase needed for melanin synthesis. The cinnamon mutation codes for TRP1 which is need for the final oxidation of melanin from brown to black. Both this processes happen at the latter stages of melanin synthesis and at this point, it is suspected that the cinnamon locus alters MATP distribution and considerable amounts of brown melanin is not cleaved, thus Sex-Linked Ino cannot totally mask Cinnamon.

On the other hand, the tyrosinase negative albinism AKA NSL-Ino (which is the Tyrosinase locus) cuts of production of the catalyst tyrosinase at the earliest stages of melanogenesis hence only very minute amounts of melanin is produced. As such, not even brown melanin makes it to the final stages of melanin synthesis. The result is that NSLIno does mask Cinnamon as no gene interraction has ever been observed on between these two mutations.

Another question: which is the difference between cin and cin+?

Cin+ is the wildtype allele of the cinnamon locus. What this means is you have the normal gene residing on the cinnamon locus. A locus is a location in a chromosome strand where the genes are located. In the absence of a mutated gene, the wildtype gene is located there as a default.

I've discussed this on this thread http://indianringneck.com/board/viewtop ... 92&start=0

[Jay]

Since the opaline locus is in the sexual cromosomes also, it can also present the same type of interactions that the cin related to the pallid/ino gene/locus. And there must also be interactions between the cin and the opaline genes. When thinking about all the possible combinations between the three of them (cin, opaline and ino/pallid) I wonder if the genetic calculator would be able to take them out.

Waiting for comments/corrections.

The genes' common location on the chromosomes only mean they could possible result in crossover, which results in mutations expressing their respective functions in color production. Genes will never interract in the chromosomes as the chromosome is nothing but a genetic blueprint.

Actual interraction happens in the pigment metabolic pathways and distribution systems.

The Opaline locus will not act the same way as the observed interraction between Cinnamon and SLIno. The Opaline mutation is more of a melanin/psittacin pattern mutation whereas Cinnamon and SLIno are melanin production mutations.

So the only "interraction" of sorts you will ever see is as follows:

If no melanin is produced (or little melanin is produced as the case of Pallids) then there is no pigment for the Opaline gene to distribute and process.

For example, on the Opaline-Pallid crossover hen below, the head of this bird is light colored (compared to the darkheaded Opalines) because not enough melanin was produced as caused by the Pallid mutation. But if you notice the white level on the flights look the same for both birds. It is so because melanin is not required for production of that pattern. It is the absence of melanin that produces it. That pattern would be yellow on Green series birds.


Opaline-Pallid Crossover




Opaline

[Recio]

I have seen the same comment in Mutavi genetics about SLI being unable to mask brown melanin, but I do not understand why.

Sex-Linked Ino codes for MATP which is a transport mechanism for tyrosinase needed for melanin synthesis. The cinnamon mutation codes for TRP1 which is need for the final oxidation of melanin from brown to black. Both this processes happen at the latter stages of melanin synthesis and at this point, it is suspected that the cinnamon locus alters MATP distribution and considerable amounts of brown melanin is not cleaved, thus Sex-Linked Ino cannot totally mask Cinnamon.

If the cinnamon locus alters MATP distribution, it means that it alters the distribution of a protein which is not synthesized if SLI is present, so I have always with the same question. By the way, if MATP acts on a transport mechanism for tyrosinase it must be in the earliest stages of melanin synthesis, if accepted that it begins at the tyrosine level, as you say when explaining how the NSL-Ino acts:

On the other hand, the tyrosinase negative albinism AKA NSL-Ino (which is the Tyrosinase locus) cuts of production of the catalyst tyrosinase at the earliest stages of melanogenesis hence only very minute amounts of melanin is produced. As such, not even brown melanin makes it to the final stages of melanin synthesis. The result is that NSLIno does mask Cinnamon as no gene interraction has ever been observed on between these two mutations.

Another question: which is the difference between cin and cin+?

Cin+ is the wildtype allele of the cinnamon locus. What this means is you have the normal gene residing on the cinnamon locus. A locus is a location in a chromosome strand where the genes are located. In the absence of a mutated gene, the wildtype gene is located there as a default.

I've discussed this on this thread http://indianringneck.com/board/viewtop ... 92&start=0

[/quote]

Yes Jay, I had found it and learn a lot. Really thanks.

[Recio]

Since the opaline locus is in the sexual cromosomes also, it can also present the same type of interactions that the cin related to the pallid/ino gene/locus. And there must also be interactions between the cin and the opaline genes. When thinking about all the possible combinations between the three of them (cin, opaline and ino/pallid) I wonder if the genetic calculator would be able to take them out.

Waiting for comments/corrections.

The genes' common location on the chromosomes only mean they could possible result in crossover, which results in mutations expressing their respective functions in color production. Genes will never interract in the chromosomes as the chromosome is nothing but a genetic blueprint.

Actual interraction happens in the pigment metabolic pathways and distribution systems.

The Opaline locus will not act the same way as the observed interraction between Cinnamon and SLIno. The Opaline mutation is more of a melanin/psittacin pattern mutation whereas Cinnamon and SLIno are melanin production mutations.

So the only "interraction" of sorts you will ever see is as follows:

If no melanin is produced (or little melanin is produced as the case of Pallids) then there is no pigment for the Opaline gene to distribute and process.

For example, on the Opaline-Pallid crossover hen below, the head of this bird is light colored (compared to the darkheaded Opalines) because not enough melanin was produced as caused by the Pallid mutation. But if you notice the white level on the flights look the same for both birds. It is so because melanin is not required for production of that pattern. It is the absence of melanin that produces it. That pattern would be yellow on Green series birds.

Thank you for the explanations and the the pic. When I was speaking of interactions, I just was thinking of the different hereditary patterns due to crossing-over between the three genes.
By the way: as you know there are genes able to modulate the expression of other genes through the synthesis of intermediate proteins. May be the action of cinnamon mutation on SL ino is in this way.

[Jay]

If the cinnamon locus alters MATP distribution, it means that it alters the distribution of a protein which is not synthesized if SLI is present, so I have always with the same question.

TRP1 locus (Cinnamon mutation) does not alter the reactant but rather the catalysts that promotes oxidation of melanin. Cinnamon is a null mutation meaning Cinnamons are brown not because of the presence of the catalyst TRP1 but rather because of it's absence. It is absent because MATP is suspected of transporting tyrosinase instead of TRP1. This partially answers your next question.

By the way, if MATP acts on a transport mechanism for tyrosinase it must be in the earliest stages of melanin synthesis, if accepted that it begins at the tyrosine level, as you say when explaining how the NSL-Ino acts:

The tyrosinase protein does not only come in as a catalyst in the first stages of melanin synthesis, specifically the conversion of tyrosine into dopaquinone. Tyrosinase also serves functions in other stages of melanogenesis, most notably in the creation of the melanosomes where the manufactured pigment is deposited.

[Recio]

Hi Jay, thanks a lot to take the time to teach a bad pupil.
Some comments:
Jay

TRP1 locus (Cinnamon mutation) does not alter the reactant but rather the catalysts that promotes oxidation of melanin.

It means, in common language, that cinnamon mutation alters the oxidase of the final step.

Cinnamon is a null mutation meaning Cinnamons are brown not because of the presence of the catalyst TRP1 but rather because of it's absence

The alteration of the oxidase happens because it is not synthesized, so no oxidase.

It is absent because MATP is suspected of transporting tyrosinase instead of TRP1.

Here again I am lost: the oxidase is lost because it is not synthesized (due to cinnamon mutation) or it is absent because MATP has something to do about?

The tyrosinase protein does not only come in as a catalyst in the first stages of melanin synthesis, specifically the conversion of tyrosine into dopaquinone. Tyrosinase also serves functions in other stages of melanogenesis, most notably in the creation of the melanosomes where the manufactured pigment is deposited

I guess that the control of the metabolic pathway leading to melanin synthesis has many feedback points and that altering one of them induces changes in the whole chain, mainly if the same enzyme is found at different points.