It has been about 3 weeks he's been at our home. He seems to not be making any progress, he is actually biting us more now. We are using all the tricks in the books to train and tame him but he hasn't even eaten out of our hands. When we finally get him on our finger, he will sit there and look terrified and tremble. He'll lunge down at the fingers and bite into them (almost always drawing blood). Because of his behavior he spends a lot off time alone which I think it not fair to him. I try to cuddle him when I can but he doesn't enjoy it. I get him out and put him on the manzanita stand when I have time but he spends a lot of time in his cage because we can not interact with him. I really think he is only suited to live in an aviary and I think that is only fair to him and his well being. He is very happy and comfortable sitting on the stand. Just terrified of human contact even after patiently working with him for a couple weeks. He eats and plays in his cage and on the stand very well as well.
The Aviary owner said I can bring him back and just take a baby when we get them at the Aviary in Spring. Or we may get a Sun COnure but I think that cage is a bit too small for an Alexandrine, what do you think Sue? I am hoping I will be able to hand feed it! I asked that she let Sasha get mature then put him in the aviary at the park there with the others.
Sasha :(
Moderator: Mods
Would you consider hanging on to him until the baby arrives? If anyone can bring him around, I am sure you can. Being in a cage in your house is still probably much more exciting than being in an aviary? I know three weeks seems like forever when you are in the middle of it, but I am sure the Fourth of July was just a few days ago now that it is almost Christmas. I'm not being judgemental, and he really may not be suited to be a pet, but I used to work with a wise woman who prescribed the "tincture of time" for most everything, so I generally suggest it as a remedy. Happy Shopping weekend! Woo hooo......
MCS
I don't think that being stuck in a cage in my room would be better than him being in an aviary, able to fly, with over 10 other IRNs to socialize with. He's more than likely going back tomorrow. He is terrified. I mean TERRIFIED of humans. Its hard, almost impossible to tame a parent raised and weaned IRN.
Correct me if I'm wrong, though.
Correct me if I'm wrong, though.
Whoa boy do I ever disagree with that one Missi but I have taken in parrots worse than my little Sunni.
I know you don't want to hear this right now but I think you are measuring Sasha up to your Baby who is gone...not fair to him no? You are doing this...because Baby is the only other IRN you have really known and Sasha is so different.
Time fixes most everything. There is nothing worse than giving up on a bird! Talk to Jen if you can find her...she is the best result of what any love and patience will do for an IRN
Dani
I know you don't want to hear this right now but I think you are measuring Sasha up to your Baby who is gone...not fair to him no? You are doing this...because Baby is the only other IRN you have really known and Sasha is so different.
Time fixes most everything. There is nothing worse than giving up on a bird! Talk to Jen if you can find her...she is the best result of what any love and patience will do for an IRN
Dani
Jut my opinion. Three weeks is not a long time to get a bird who is not used to and has trust issues with humans to come around. These things take time and patients. I am not expert at these things but have you tried stick training first and that can take 4- 6 weeks by itself. You have the ability to forge a bond with this bird over time. it can take months to make a break through with him but think about how happy he will be in the long run if he learns to like humans and stays with you in an obviously wonderful home. What’s a couple of months even it if takes 6 month or more of serious training and then he enjoys a life time of companionship and love with you.
This is going to sound harsh and mean but I am not trying to be I just want you to think about it. what would you tell someone who says I just got my irn like 3 weeks ago and it will not be friendly im going to take it back or give it away. If you work with that little guy you can really have a relationship with the bird that is healthy. Like Dani said this is not Baby and never will be. Baby was special not just to you but in the fact that Baby was one of those rare birds that got a little extra put into it when it was hatched. So give Sasha some time he will come around but it will take some time. who knows maybe sasha is one of those extra special birds too but is to scared and unsure. Maybe he needs the time to realize that all this wonderful stuff called love is going to last. He needs to learn that you will not hurt him and that can take time. I say give him another 5 weeks of working with him every day and see what you think then.
This is going to sound harsh and mean but I am not trying to be I just want you to think about it. what would you tell someone who says I just got my irn like 3 weeks ago and it will not be friendly im going to take it back or give it away. If you work with that little guy you can really have a relationship with the bird that is healthy. Like Dani said this is not Baby and never will be. Baby was special not just to you but in the fact that Baby was one of those rare birds that got a little extra put into it when it was hatched. So give Sasha some time he will come around but it will take some time. who knows maybe sasha is one of those extra special birds too but is to scared and unsure. Maybe he needs the time to realize that all this wonderful stuff called love is going to last. He needs to learn that you will not hurt him and that can take time. I say give him another 5 weeks of working with him every day and see what you think then.
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Mikaela
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Dani03 wrote:Whoa boy do I ever disagree with that one Missi but I have taken in parrots worse than my little Sunni.
I know you don't want to hear this right now but I think you are measuring Sasha up to your Baby who is gone...not fair to him no? You are doing this...because Baby is the only other IRN you have really known and Sasha is so different.
Time fixes most everything. There is nothing worse than giving up on a bird! Talk to Jen if you can find her...she is the best result of what any love and patience will do for an IRN
Dani
I could not agree more or have said it better.
Miss Missi!
Giiiirl. Im going to let Dani handle you. But, I have NEVER touched baby and I'll leave you with that.
Im dumb-founded. Im sorry. You know better, you just got this baby.
Baby is 2.
~ Mikaela Sky
Missi--I have to say I am more than a little suprised to read this post...you know that it takes time and you also know what kind of home this baby is going to end up in if you take him back to the aviary. If you are ready to give up on him after just three short weeks how long do you think it will take for a novice to give up on him and shut him away in a room somewhere....I hope you will give this some deeper thought before you act on your emotions.
Kim
Kim
I'm having flash backs to when Jen was first here...she too was going to give up Byndi.
Missi...please understand that we will always care for you no matter your decision. But you have to realize that Sasha was taken from the only place he ever knew and brought to a new home. It takes time and more than three weeks
Don't think we're ganging up or trying to make you keep the bird. But I don't think that baby would be happy as an aviary bird. It is your decision in the end but remember that once you give up on Sasha, your breaking a promise you made to him. We are their flock and only source of companionship. You brought him into your life and now three weeks he's leaving because you can't handle him???
Take some more time with him, let him settle...and remember he is not Baby and never will be.
*hugs*
You know where I am if you need help or to talk
Dani
Missi...please understand that we will always care for you no matter your decision. But you have to realize that Sasha was taken from the only place he ever knew and brought to a new home. It takes time and more than three weeks
Don't think we're ganging up or trying to make you keep the bird. But I don't think that baby would be happy as an aviary bird. It is your decision in the end but remember that once you give up on Sasha, your breaking a promise you made to him. We are their flock and only source of companionship. You brought him into your life and now three weeks he's leaving because you can't handle him???
Take some more time with him, let him settle...and remember he is not Baby and never will be.
*hugs*
You know where I am if you need help or to talk
Dani
I like to think that I am fairly educated and evolved. But, truth be told, when I move to a new town, it is a couple of months before I learn to trust anyone; it is only my parents' careful training that keeps me from telling folks what I really think (and yes, I suspect I could draw blood).
The holidays throw us all off of our routine. My critters are so used to their routines that they don't even quite know what to do when I am home an extra day of the week. Add some houseguests and some unusual decorations or activities and they all can act up (or hide). Sasha doesn't even have a sense of "normal" just yet.
Aside from a little frustration (and perhaps some blood), would it be too hard to keep him until things calm down in the New Year? Maybe at the end of the day, he won't be a cuddly fid, and you can still get another baby in the spring (after the first couple, one more is not a big deal), but you may well be his best chance to bond to a "family". It may be more than you & Joe are ready for right now, and that is okay, but I think you both may regret giving up before you have tried everything.
And if it is really hard...you can tell all of us every day how much trouble we are putting you through, right up until Sasha comes around and we can all say "I told you so"!
The holidays throw us all off of our routine. My critters are so used to their routines that they don't even quite know what to do when I am home an extra day of the week. Add some houseguests and some unusual decorations or activities and they all can act up (or hide). Sasha doesn't even have a sense of "normal" just yet.
Aside from a little frustration (and perhaps some blood), would it be too hard to keep him until things calm down in the New Year? Maybe at the end of the day, he won't be a cuddly fid, and you can still get another baby in the spring (after the first couple, one more is not a big deal), but you may well be his best chance to bond to a "family". It may be more than you & Joe are ready for right now, and that is okay, but I think you both may regret giving up before you have tried everything.
And if it is really hard...you can tell all of us every day how much trouble we are putting you through, right up until Sasha comes around and we can all say "I told you so"!
MCS
I don't think you guys are ganging up on me, just concerned.
I honestly don't know how to tame a parent raised IRN. I heard it's damn near impossible. I am also not comparing him to Baby what so ever. I knew getting him that he was going to be a big challenge. I have tried to stick traain him with a dowel. I've tried almost everything. I don't see how you can tame this little guy. He bites the hell out of you and trembles at the first sight of you. I dunno...
I honestly don't know how to tame a parent raised IRN. I heard it's damn near impossible. I am also not comparing him to Baby what so ever. I knew getting him that he was going to be a big challenge. I have tried to stick traain him with a dowel. I've tried almost everything. I don't see how you can tame this little guy. He bites the hell out of you and trembles at the first sight of you. I dunno...
xo Missi wrote:I knew getting him that he was going to be a big challenge...
So three weeks goes by and you are ready to give up? Missi I'm going to warn you that if give up this easily over Sasha...what are you going to do when Jazzy stops being a baby and becomes an adult? And how about that macaw you are planning on getting?
Sure I know how cute baby macaws are but after five or six years when they hit maturity that's when they change. They start to test you and change into totally different birds. Why do you think there are adult parrots up for adoption and never just bought babies?
Are you sure your not, somewhere deep down disappointed that Sasha isn't like Baby? Trust me, we all do it. We want so desparatly to have our lost ones back, we try to replace them but the new birds don't live up to what the old ones where. It happens to everyone. Don't feel bad for doing this...
Let Sasha settle into your home. Dowel perching and finger training take TIME and lots of it. Some birds take years to ever be properly hand trained. Just, are you willing to commit the years it may take? Birds are not programmed to trust everyone. THey aren't dogs...you need to make the effort to make sure he feels safe in your home before he can trust you.
I really am hoping that you sit and look in your heart if you are able to take the time and the 'want' to tame him down. If you really find that you don't think you can, maybe you shouldn't. It wouldn't be right for you to keep him and only end up resenting him. Let him go to someone who can and don't turn him into an aviary bird.
All I ask is that if it comes to this and Sasha leaves...Missi take time before you decide to get another parrot. Babies are cute, we know, but think down the road. You already have one commitment for Jazzy, are you able to take another? If you can't take the time to tame Sasha will you be able for another?
We do make promises towards our parrots. If we are consistantly breaking them, for what ever reason, maybe we should rethink why we have them in our lives in the first place. Being a rescurer has opened my eyes to so many things, half the time I swear people should not be owning these creatures but that's hypocritial of me. I dunno, I guess this is just one thing I have been so passionate about.
Fact, did you know that 1 out of 10 birds actually remain in it's first home? Yeah thats 1 out 10...what happens to the other 9? They get traded like possesions...look around on Craigslist...man that is a sad site.
Dani
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~*Gwennie*~
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Dani03 wrote:Whoa boy do I ever disagree with that one Missi but I have taken in parrots worse than my little Sunni.
I know you don't want to hear this right now but I think you are measuring Sasha up to your Baby who is gone...not fair to him no? You are doing this...because Baby is the only other IRN you have really known and Sasha is so different.
Time fixes most everything. There is nothing worse than giving up on a bird! Talk to Jen if you can find her...she is the best result of what any love and patience will do for an IRN
Dani
Missi, I think Dani nailed it right on the head. You have this incredible knack for working with birds, although Sasha may not be as easy as Baby was I have this feeling that if you keep working with him he'll come around. Who knows where he started his life off, just keep giving him your love and i think he'll trust you. It's definately frustrating, but well worth it in the end. *hug*
~the stubborn one~
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Bird crazy
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On behalf of finding him a home
Just a thught about finding Sasha a home:
My first parrot was a Senegal, hand raised, parrot. He was 5 when I got him. Lady told me he was friendly. Actually she bought him to breed with her pet female senegal but they would not have a thing to do with each other, she had had him for 2 years. When I saw him in her home I was able to handle him, he talked to me, let me pet him, give kisses, etc etc. I took him on the spot. I got him home, he took one look at hubby, learned his name in just 2 days and I was never able to touch him again, he drew blood on me every time I tried. He loved my husband. I kept that bird for 18 months and tried every day to handle him. He would let me get him up on a stick and would do his best to run down the stick and bite me. My hubby did not want a bird and finally got tired of having to handle the bird for me, or I would have kept him. I did find him a home with a woman who had another senegal and felt confident she could handle him. I kept in touch with her for a few years and they did well together. I often wondered how much harm I had done to the bird by keeping him so long and allowing his bad behavior to become an established thing. My husband and I argued all the time about the bird because I wanted him to play and handle the bird. So the bird lived in a stressful environment because of that.
I could go on and on. But I think there are times when going ahead and making the decision earlier may be in the best interest of the bird. If you realize it is beyond you rather than making a bad situation worse, better to give in and do what's best for the bird.
Off my soap box now. Thanks for reading.
My first parrot was a Senegal, hand raised, parrot. He was 5 when I got him. Lady told me he was friendly. Actually she bought him to breed with her pet female senegal but they would not have a thing to do with each other, she had had him for 2 years. When I saw him in her home I was able to handle him, he talked to me, let me pet him, give kisses, etc etc. I took him on the spot. I got him home, he took one look at hubby, learned his name in just 2 days and I was never able to touch him again, he drew blood on me every time I tried. He loved my husband. I kept that bird for 18 months and tried every day to handle him. He would let me get him up on a stick and would do his best to run down the stick and bite me. My hubby did not want a bird and finally got tired of having to handle the bird for me, or I would have kept him. I did find him a home with a woman who had another senegal and felt confident she could handle him. I kept in touch with her for a few years and they did well together. I often wondered how much harm I had done to the bird by keeping him so long and allowing his bad behavior to become an established thing. My husband and I argued all the time about the bird because I wanted him to play and handle the bird. So the bird lived in a stressful environment because of that.
I could go on and on. But I think there are times when going ahead and making the decision earlier may be in the best interest of the bird. If you realize it is beyond you rather than making a bad situation worse, better to give in and do what's best for the bird.
Off my soap box now. Thanks for reading.
Sue
Rowdy Vos eclectus, Dolly Cockatiel
Nila Blue IRN, Priya Grey IRN, and Bigotes the cat
Rowdy Vos eclectus, Dolly Cockatiel
Nila Blue IRN, Priya Grey IRN, and Bigotes the cat
Sue I couldn't agree with you more. I had a simliar story with my Moluccan Cockatoo. I dearly loved him but he did not get along with anybody in the house but me. I know we all like to think we get birds for life no matter what. Sorry this is real life and there are going to birds in our life that we can not do anything with thats a fact so don't beat yourself up do whats best for the bird.
Donna
Donna
Just had to butt in with my story. I have a quaker Miroki, who I have had for a year now, who absolutely hates me. Despises me and has done so from the moment we met. Its simply a case of I love him but he doesn't love me. I can hardly touch him, he screams if I think about sitting near him etc. Strange thing though he absolutely adores my sister and she loves him. He is now living quite happily with her down in Brisbane, I feel guilty for having to give him to her but I know how much better off he is with someone he loves and that he can actually interact with. It hurts my heart as well as my pride that I couldn't win him over,but I guess I am lucky enough that his attitude was only towards me and that he gets along so well with my sister.
Its not always a bad thing when you have to rehome a bird. If you do it for the right reasons everybody, you, bird and the new home can be much better off in the long run.
Once again sorry to barge in but had to share.
Its not always a bad thing when you have to rehome a bird. If you do it for the right reasons everybody, you, bird and the new home can be much better off in the long run.
Once again sorry to barge in but had to share.
Kate
Life is tough, and if you have the ability to laugh at it you have the ability to enjoy it.
Life is tough, and if you have the ability to laugh at it you have the ability to enjoy it.
I am working with Sasha for a few more weeks. Yesterday, one of the owners of the Aviary taught me how she used to tame wild caught parrots that just came in the a store from the jungle (i.e. greys ad amazons, etc). The other owner said to me, "WHY are you keeping him still??" and looked at me like I'm nuts. It's all a matter of opinion and what you're able to handle. I know Jasmine will become hormonal. I know she is just a baby now. Not all females turn into raging bitches though. I know a few people who have sweetie 8 and 10 year old girls. But I will work with her through anything, her and I have a very strong bond. I know how adult macaws act. I interact with Indie, our adult Hyacinth Macaw at the Aviary. He's a testy guy. He'll go at you, and go at you to see if HE can break YOU! If so, he'll go in for the bite, it ain't pretty with that beak. Even the way he looks and stares at you, sizing you up can intimidate most. I also deal with quit a few adult macaws in our boarding room. I will ALWAYS think before I get another parrot or any other animal, at that. I thought a ton before I got Sasha, just didn't know his behavior would do a complete flip-flop from how he acted toward me a the Aviary. It's pretty much like he's disgusted with humans. But when I took him to the Aviary to show them how he acts and get advice, he acted completly calm. Would bite a few times but didn't tremble and shake and dart his head and eyes around looking for a place to get away. He also made eye contact with me and regurgitated for me. This is why I'm working with him still. However, when I got him back home he was back to his old antics of being terrified.
Of course I wish any bird I will have would be Baby, hell, ANYONE would. But I don't think about it that way at ALL. Parrots are total individuals. It would be like dating a nee guy and expecting him to be like, say, the last boyfriend you were with and in love with that broke up wth you. Just for example. I know many girls do that and just get their heart broken more. I wouldn't even think that way. You know what I'm saying? Baby was a perfect fid. I know that. You all know that, but now Baby is gone. His purpose was to open my eyes to birds, he fulfilled his duty. I know no other bird I have will probably be like him. Jasmine was a pain in the **** at first, but I worked and worked and WORKED with her.
She was also a young, young baby. The NUMBER 1 rule with bird training is work with them while they're young. A great referrence to this is the Hartman Avaries. Otherwise, you may not be able to break them. Sasha was 6 months old when I got him. Parent raised. Even the ladies at the Aviary said IRN are difficult birds to break. We all know that, if you don't, well consider yourself blessed
I am wondering why anyone would be against a bird being in an aviary if it is not able to be handled? To me, that's a great place for it to be, besides being the wild. I even look at it being a better place for even a well behaved parrot. Spending time in a cage with it's wings clipped. Most owners work so the parrot wold be in the cage quite a few hours -VS- being in an aviary where it is "free" to fly around with others of it's species and live how it should. I know this makes me look like a hypocrite because I keep Jazzy and Sasha in a cage but if I had land (PLEASE Lord someday!!
) I would have a large aviary built on it and have a male for Jazzy. There's not much more beautiful than an aviary "full" of IRN But for now, I give them what I can. BUT...if you have an unhappy fid and have the chance to let it do what it does in the wild (as we know, parrots are not domesticated), I think you'd also consider they route I am considering.
All that being said, I'm not getting defensive, just kinda letting people know I may know more and think more about all this than you know I do.
Thanks for your opinions, though
Of course I wish any bird I will have would be Baby, hell, ANYONE would. But I don't think about it that way at ALL. Parrots are total individuals. It would be like dating a nee guy and expecting him to be like, say, the last boyfriend you were with and in love with that broke up wth you. Just for example. I know many girls do that and just get their heart broken more. I wouldn't even think that way. You know what I'm saying? Baby was a perfect fid. I know that. You all know that, but now Baby is gone. His purpose was to open my eyes to birds, he fulfilled his duty. I know no other bird I have will probably be like him. Jasmine was a pain in the **** at first, but I worked and worked and WORKED with her.
She was also a young, young baby. The NUMBER 1 rule with bird training is work with them while they're young. A great referrence to this is the Hartman Avaries. Otherwise, you may not be able to break them. Sasha was 6 months old when I got him. Parent raised. Even the ladies at the Aviary said IRN are difficult birds to break. We all know that, if you don't, well consider yourself blessed
I am wondering why anyone would be against a bird being in an aviary if it is not able to be handled? To me, that's a great place for it to be, besides being the wild. I even look at it being a better place for even a well behaved parrot. Spending time in a cage with it's wings clipped. Most owners work so the parrot wold be in the cage quite a few hours -VS- being in an aviary where it is "free" to fly around with others of it's species and live how it should. I know this makes me look like a hypocrite because I keep Jazzy and Sasha in a cage but if I had land (PLEASE Lord someday!!
) I would have a large aviary built on it and have a male for Jazzy. There's not much more beautiful than an aviary "full" of IRN But for now, I give them what I can. BUT...if you have an unhappy fid and have the chance to let it do what it does in the wild (as we know, parrots are not domesticated), I think you'd also consider they route I am considering.
All that being said, I'm not getting defensive, just kinda letting people know I may know more and think more about all this than you know I do.
Thanks for your opinions, though
xo Missi wrote:The NUMBER 1 rule with bird training is work with them while they're young. A great referrence to this is the Hartman Avaries.
*shakes head*
Missi...you work great with baby birds...you really do but that is not a rule of parrot taming. You can tame any bird...all it takes is YOU wanting to do it. If it's not in your heart you won't succeed.
Baby birds are EASY to tame...because they haven't been screwed up as much as adults have. Baby birds are more apt to trusting a human, esp. if they have been hand fed. Babies are cute and fluffy and have that trusting soul about them...but then they turn into adults. You haven't been on the beak end of a raging hormonal amazon or macaw yet and I hope you never have to!
There's a different between taming and training...and we do not 'break' parrots...we try to curb some of the 'bad' habits they have and coexist with them but never ever break them. They are essentially wild animals in our homes...not domesticated.
And about the avairy situation...what would happen if you were thrown into a house with a bunch of people you didn't know and probably aren't going to be happy that there is another in the area to compete for food for??? You wouldn't be very happy either...
It's great that you are giving him some more time...that's all he needs. Remember that place was his only home...of course he's going to act differently there!
Dani
Thanks! I work great with a lot of adult birds as well Sasha's just an overly difficult student right now We, at the Aviary, are the biggest drop off site for unwanted adult birds in the area. When people don't want it any more because it screams or they don't have enough time for it, we get them. When owners die, their family call us to pick up the birds and sell them for them. I have been bitten by adult parrots. Macaws and amazons a like. Senegals to 'keets as well! I know how it is to be bitten by an angry macaw. Just the other day we were doing a trim on a macaws wings and I got a full force bite on the pinky, still love that B&G dollie. He acts all big and bad but when he sees you have a soft spot for him, he gets over it and calms down. Let's not forget that Catilina Macaw bite. I got over that.
Not all babies are EASY to tame. I will strongly disagree there. I work with MANY different species of hand fed, and once hand tame baby birds. The people from the Aviary who feed and tame them home every night and socialize them. We have several baby conures and senegals that just snap and get anti-social. I'm talking 3, 4, or 5 month old babies. We even have a baby B&G who is 3 months that is a bully. I have heard stories of people who know bird behavior very well and still have issues with some babies they take home so they raise them as breeders.
All in all, birds aren't humans. They usually adjust very quickly, but that's not to say it won't emotionally damage them some what. I'm still sticking to the fact an aviary is the best place for a captive bird If it has to duke it out to get food (it's not a fight for food in most aviaries, they're still "pets") and find it's place in the pecking order, it's the way of nature. The way of an undomesticated animal. Heck, even if you introduce a new puppy to "your" current group of dogs, it'll still happen.
Sasha's just an overly difficult student right now We, at the Aviary, are the biggest drop off site for unwanted adult birds in the area. When people don't want it any more because it screams or they don't have enough time for it, we get them. When owners die, their family call us to pick up the birds and sell them for them. I have been bitten by adult parrots. Macaws and amazons a like. Senegals to 'keets as well! I know how it is to be bitten by an angry macaw. Just the other day we were doing a trim on a macaws wings and I got a full force bite on the pinky, still love that B&G dollie. He acts all big and bad but when he sees you have a soft spot for him, he gets over it and calms down. Let's not forget that Catilina Macaw bite. I got over that.
Not all babies are EASY to tame. I will strongly disagree there. I work with MANY different species of hand fed, and once hand tame baby birds. The people from the Aviary who feed and tame them home every night and socialize them. We have several baby conures and senegals that just snap and get anti-social. I'm talking 3, 4, or 5 month old babies. We even have a baby B&G who is 3 months that is a bully. I have heard stories of people who know bird behavior very well and still have issues with some babies they take home so they raise them as breeders.
All in all, birds aren't humans. They usually adjust very quickly, but that's not to say it won't emotionally damage them some what. I'm still sticking to the fact an aviary is the best place for a captive bird
If it has to duke it out to get food (it's not a fight for food in most aviaries, they're still "pets") and find it's place in the pecking order, it's the way of nature. The way of an undomesticated animal. Heck, even if you introduce a new puppy to "your" current group of dogs, it'll still happen.