Emerald Cleartail phoenetics

[Recio]

yeah i mostly agree. But i think you can't compare the tail feathers of turq SL-ino with a turq or emerald cleartail. Attached a pic of cleartail turq (heavy turq).



Tail underside is white.

madas

Hi Madas,

IMO tail underside is creamy . CT induces changes not only in melanin distribution (no comment since it is evident for everybody) but also in psittacin content (as we can see in the CT rec lutino combo, which shows a lower amount of psittacin in the belly). This explains the lower amount of psittacin in the belly and undertail of turquoise CT birds, even if the original turquoise was a "heavy turquoise". Anyway CT seems to act also on the feather structure (and now I join Willy previous post) so that the expresion of other structural mutations in CT birds produce different phenotypes than expected. More, I think that probably the first action of CT is on feather structure, and that this change induces a secondary decrease in the ability of the feather to be "charged" in pigments (both melanin and psitacin). In other mutations acting on melanocytes (pieds and probably opaline) the control of the expression of both pigments is asymetrical with a decrease in melanin when psittacins increase or just the oposite. In CT both pigments decrease in intensity in the same areas, so I do not think that the regulation of both pigments is made at the melanocyte level, but probably as a second hand effect of a primary action on feather structure.

Of course, just speculation ... as ever before (I am too old to change).

Regards

Recio

[madas]

(I perfectly understand Willy's doubt about the colour of the bird labeled Violet Cobalt Emerald CT ... could it just be Violet Cobalt CT?).

Hi Recio,
... And so far for me it is no surprise that a emerald chct in blue series looks darker then chct blue series birds without emerald. For turq birds you can see a darker blue color wihtin the transitions from normal blue base color to the patched turq areas. So the same should be true for a emerald bird but here among the whole Body. Btw. the turq patches got darker as well if violet or dark is added.

madas

Hi Madas,

As you say the darker colour in turquoise birds appears within the transition from normal blue base colour to the patched turquoise areas. In Emeralds there is not any transition because there are not patches, so IMO the darker colour is quite unexpected.

Best regards

Recio

No. I ment the same should apply for emerald because there is such a transition among the whole Body.

madas

[madas]

yeah i mostly agree. But i think you can't compare the tail feathers of turq SL-ino with a turq or emerald cleartail. Attached a pic of cleartail turq (heavy turq).



Tail underside is white.

madas

Hi Madas,

IMO tail underside is creamy . CT induces changes not only in melanin distribution (no comment since it is evident for everybody) but also in psittacin content (as we can see in the CT rec lutino combo, which shows a lower amount of psittacin in the belly). This explains the lower amount of psittacin in the belly and undertail of turquoise CT birds, even if the original turquoise was a "heavy turquoise". Anyway CT seems to act also on the feather structure (and now I join Willy previous post) so that the expresion of other structural mutations in CT birds produce different phenotypes than expected. More, I think that probably the first action of CT is on feather structure, and that this change induces a secondary decrease in the ability of the feather to be "charged" in pigments (both melanin and psitacin). In other mutations acting on melanocytes (pieds and probably opaline) the control of the expression of both pigments is asymetrical with a decrease in melanin when psittacins increase or just the oposite. In CT both pigments decrease in intensity in the same areas, so I do not think that the regulation of both pigments is made at the melanocyte level, but probably as a second hand effect of a primary action on feather structure.

Of course, just speculation ... as ever before (I am too old to change).

Regards

Recio

Hm, then you must have other eyes. Compared to the green series bird on the left the chct turq on the right for my eyes is showing a White undertail. Not yellow and not creamy.

madas

[Mikesringnecks]

This is an image of one of Chris' EmeraldTurquoise showing some patching from the Turquoise

[URL=http://s1305.photobucket.com/user/ ... .jpg[/img][/url]

Hi Willy,

I have been thinking a lot about this pic, since it was the only pic of a bird labeled Turquoise Emerald (TurquoiseEmerald if you prefere) that was available for a while. You can compare it to Mike's pics and the difference is evident: Mike's bird appears as a mainly green bird with a brigthness that seems to change depending on the incident ligth - bird - camera angle. Far more, sometimes it is not only the apparent brigthness, but also the hue which seems to change, and in some pics the birds appear bluer and in others it appears greener (maybe my eyes and my screen are also working in this perception). If I am not wrong, Chris pic was taken under artificial lighting, which usually is compound of 3 or 4 wavelengths according to the emission spectrum of the bulb. In this situation, whenever the yellow wavelengths are not enough represented in this spectrum we can fail to properly detect Emerald allowing us to easierly uncover the underlying psittacin of the Turquoise patches.

In the past uv studies allowed to detect two different fluorescent emisions between Emeralds and the wild, lutino and parblues group. I have been wanting to perform similar studies but using a monochromatic yellow ligth to study not the fluorescence but the difference in iridiscence between those groups. If the soft even yellow we can see in Emeralds depends on a reflexion of yellow wavelengths on the surface of the cortex (structural yellow), then this colour perception must be coupled to the presence of brigthness. If Emeralds appear yellow and loose their brigthness under this yellow ligth it would mean that both phenomena (colour and brigthness) are not coupled and probably depend on different structures/pigments.

I have been asking people to send me feathers of Emeralds to do it ... but so far I am always waiting for them ... so, if somebody has the time and curiosity to do it ... it would be great.

Regards

Recio[/quot

Hi Recio
Re Turquoise Emerald Cleartail hen and and Violet Cobalt Cleartail cock bird. Second clutch of 4 is starting to colour up (first 3 have ends of flight feathers and tail feathers just showing). Interestingly, the second one looks as if it will have a white tail and underside, not lemon like all the others so far.
I can't see yet whether it is carrying any turquoise or not but, as you know, turquoise can stay hidden at least up to the juvenile moult.
Too early to take useful photos yet but I have sourced a better camera and photographer when the time comes. However, the foster parents on this second clutch are not tame so I will have to be a bit circumspect about how often I take the chicks out for photography.
I have an Emerald split cleartail tail hen as well as the Turquoise Emerald Cleartail. If you can deduce anything from analysis of their feathers, I would be happy to forward some if I had an address to send them to.
Kind regards
Mike

[Mikesringnecks]

Mike,

Beautiful birds, well done.

Any chance we can see a pic of the turquoise emerald cleartail hen please?
do you have a higher resolution pic of the chicks?

i can not see turquoise on either of the chicks.
when you look at them did you see any of their wings with turquoise markings?

Hi Ben
I think I have worked out what I was doing with the photos, the attached photo of the first of the cobalt emerald cleartails to fledge should be higher resolution I hope, but the higher resolution shots of the mother don't seem to want to attach.
The second clutch are starting to show colour but not enough yet to warrant a photo. However, 2 of them look to be pretty well white underneath rather than lemon. Unfortunately that won't necessarily tell us in a hurry whether or not they are turquoise given the variability in expression that mutation can experience.
Kind regards
Mike

[Ring0Neck]

Better pics from Mike.

[Recio]

Hi Recio
Re Turquoise Emerald Cleartail hen and and Violet Cobalt Cleartail cock bird. Second clutch of 4 is starting to colour up (first 3 have ends of flight feathers and tail feathers just showing). Interestingly, the second one looks as if it will have a white tail and underside, not lemon like all the others so far.
I can't see yet whether it is carrying any turquoise or not but, as you know, turquoise can stay hidden at least up to the juvenile moult.
Too early to take useful photos yet but I have sourced a better camera and photographer when the time comes. However, the foster parents on this second clutch are not tame so I will have to be a bit circumspect about how often I take the chicks out for photography.
I have an Emerald split cleartail tail hen as well as the Turquoise Emerald Cleartail. If you can deduce anything from analysis of their feathers, I would be happy to forward some if I had an address to send them to.
Kind regards
Mike

Hi Mike,

Expecting your pics.
My postal address:

Joaquin Recio Calzada
197bis route de Saint Simon
31100 Toulouse
France

Feathers from any other contributor are welcome. Please label the feathers with the mutation(s) name(s) and try to send at least some covert wing feathers and also some primary wing feathers.

Thanks

Recio