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trabots

Is parblue simply Blue split green John, genetically BlueGreen is the same a GreenBlue or Green split Blue. That bird has a wildtype gene sharing the Blue locus with a Blue gene. A Parblue mutation is allelic to Blue meaning it can only reside on the Blue locus. So we have TurquoiseBlue, EmeraldBlu...

trabots

Are you not assuming EmeraldBlue here again and ignoring the remote possibility of Aaron's green parent's parent being SF Emerald Blue rather than EmeraldBlue? Mike, you are persistent. I have already proved that an 'Emerald looking' bird cannot be Blue for the simple fact that Blue eliminates all ...

trabots

Molossus, the Grey mutation destroys all structural colour in a feather. It is odd that it still called a structural mutation but that is because it involves structure. That is why there are no blue colours in a Grey or Grey Green. If Emerald was structural logically Grey would destroy that structur...

trabots

Sheyd, no they were bred from a Deep Blue x Green CH Fallow. He has 3 Deep Greens /CH Fallow now.

trabots

Ron has just sent me images of a Deep Green with a Green, both 100% for sure. Kappa, I don't know what to say but your bird is significantly different.

SF Deep Green, Green

trabots

If the green parent of Aaron's chick is SF Emerald Green (ignoring the complicating genes) is it not possible for the chick to be SF Emerald also? Surely, the obvious additional step we have to take is a careful visual inspection of that Green parent to see if there is any sign of the influence of ...

trabots

Due to a lack of audience participation this thread is dead. I have agreement on the logic from Recio, that is all I need.

trabots

Whenever a mutation appears in one of the controled genes, this could scape to the control of the master gene, and allow to express psittacins even if Blue is present. Recio, there is proof that the Blue mutation eliminates both kinds of psitticin right in front of us. We have a wildtype Green whic...

trabots

Has anyone told Aaron that he is possibly the owner of a mythical/rare SF Emerald Green or most likely only a Green/emerald? Mike sorry I know you asked Ben but I did speak personally with Aaron also. Aaron didn't need to be told he had a Green /Emerald. He was told on acquisition that that may be ...

trabots

Recio et al here is your new thread however I have decided to work it back from my logic. Please, please save your non to the point discourses for the other threads on the subject. Here is the logic re-posted for reference. Again, the hetero. Emerald IRN we know and I have bred has come from pairing...

trabots

Grey does not destroy psitticins so Grey will not mask Emerald but combine with it Grey destroys structure. So does this not prove that Emerald is not structural? I will not take part any further. I can't resist, I have an addiction to proving the rest of you wrong. Quite a challenge however when t...

trabots

Willy: could you open a new thread and make a summary of your results from the begining? Recio et al, before my anger at the illogical that keeps on being presented here turns into tears. :x I will not take part any further. Reciio, your analysis is always the same, you throw in some possibility or...

trabots

It's already done

Is this a trick answer? Respectfully Recio, but where can I find your dissection and analysis of the Parblue logic I presented?

trabots

Thanks for the correction Willy ... but the main logic remains.

As you are logic driven like me Recio, why won't you go through the Emerald logic I have offered and come to a conclusion?

trabots

it was me that said what if green masks Emerald If Green masks Emerald, Emerald is recessive. grey masks violet but grey and Emerald produce Emerald grey Grey destroys structural colour in case of Violet Grey however Grey does not destroy psitticins so Grey will not mask Emerald but combine with it...

trabots

My deep green is bred from 1 of Martin's birds, and as for images, I have posted some early on in this thread. Have I bred a df deep green? I thought I did, but I am unfortunately starting to have my doubts. The chick I have was very different early on ( also posted photos in this thread) but has &...

trabots

Again, the hetero. Emerald IRN we know and I have bred has come from pairings with Blue. That said we know that they must have at least one Blue gene. The hetero. Emerald IRN has psitticin so it cannot have 2 Blue genes. The bird then is Emerald /Blue or is EmeraldBlue. If the former then we alread...

trabots

df Turquoise, IndigoBlue, TurquoiseBlue

df Indigo 15mo

trabots

but Mike's results show that the expression of Emerald in Violet birds produces a darker Violet and not a greener bird. Mike's results are for the CHCT mutation Recio. I have bred several Violet EmeraldBlues and they are definately greener. http://i1305.photobucket.com/albums/s541/Trabots/Trabots%2...

trabots

Blue x Green /Emerald = 50% Green /Blue 50% EmeraldBlue Mike why do you say If emerald is a par blue mutation I agree with you entirely because the parent would be EmeraldBlue not Green. when the genetics are quite clear? The hen is a Green split Emerald and will breed EmeraldBlues when bred to a B...

trabots

Dark Deep, Dark Violet, Dark, Dark Deep Violet Blues

trabots

Aaron's breeding result only provides an absolute proof if we can be 100% certain that the Green parent is not split for blue as detailed in my previous analysis. Hi Mike, the fact that the Green parent has now been proved split Emerald means it cannot be split to Blue because either way it would s...

trabots

It may be awhile before that happens Ben, I am keeping my Cobalts separate for now. In fact as I am convinced that Cobalt is a dead end I am going to get rid of most of them. Cobalt starts destroying the structure as does a Mauve when more than 2 structural mutations are present (not counting Blue)....

trabots

Hi Mike, firstly your pairs are not correct, this is what happened. They are not Ben's birds, Ben just saw the birds at Aaron's. I talked to Aaron today for 30 min. The pairing was Violet Blue CHCT x Violet Green /CHCT /Emerald, removing the irrelevant we have: Blue x Green /Emerald = 50% Green /Blu...

trabots

To show you how difficult it is to identify sometimes, I placed a for sure Deep Blue and Deep TurquoiseBlue in with the previous bunch. There is another DF Deep Violet Blue on the left. The bird in the other image previously labelled Deep Blue is in fact a DF, it is the one on the perch. http://i130...

trabots

I will ask her about the grand parents on the mother's side to see if there is any chance of my hen being a TurquoiseTurquoise (I certainly couldn't tell from the phenotype) Hi Mike here is a TurquoiseTurquoise next to a TurquoiseBlue http://i1305.photobucket.com/albums/s541/Trabots/Trabots%20IRNs/...

trabots

It seems that it is almost pathological with some of you to prove IRN Emerald is dominant and not Parblue. Have you bet your houses on it? Every single such argument or theory put forward could just as easily been used to dispute Turquoise or Indigo. Why are they not being questioned? I have yet to ...

trabots

Kappa, thanks for the private email. It shouldn't need to be private. Ron's Deep Blue birds are the same as Martins as are mine. Only Ron has bred Deep Greens (in our little group). You say you have them? Where are your images? Have you bred a DF Deep in either Blue or Green? If you think your birds...

trabots

Sorry, this is the article: http://www.theguardian.com/science/punc ... ds-physics

trabots

Please have a look at this article on structural colour in birds. This quote is the clincher: These fundamental modifications cause violet and blue light to be selectively reflected from the feather surface in the case of violet/blue feathers, while white feathers reflect all visible light. In short...

trabots

If emerald is a parblue, why is it visible in the green series heterozygous emerald alexandrine, i.e. the green / emerald (or emerald green split or not split blue)? Johan, Molossus et al, we are talking about the Emerald mutation in IRNs NOT Alexandrines. That is a totally different beast and must...

trabots

Does the concept of emerald possibly being a structural gene necessarily mean it will be co-dominant and should we therefore be able to see some evidence of it in the green series? Mike, if a simple het. Emerald is not EmeraldBlue it is Green /Emerald (what Aaron has). A Green series bird has the B...

trabots

Ben, I think all these birds darken to maturity. But yes to your question.

trabots

I go Grey and Cinnamon Blue

trabots

The potential outcomes from my EmeraldTurquoise hen paired to a BlueBlue (excuse my perversion of the Martin system) cock are EmeraldBlue and TurquoiseBlue my pairing can only produce EmeraldBlue chicks if emerald is a par blue gene Mike you were right the first time. EmeraldTurquoise x BlueBlue = ...

trabots

Hi Mike, I am sold on Aaron's breeding of a Green bird to a non-Emerald bird and resulting in an EmeraldBlue chick. He was told by a respected breeder that the Green bird was poss split Emerald. That breeder is obviously way ahead of the rest of us and also knows that Emerald is a recessive Parblue ...

trabots

This is dark

DF Deep Violet TurquoiseBlue, DF Deep TurqoiseBlue, Deep Blue

trabots

trabots wrote:
The locus is named the Blue locus however every allele that can be on that locus has equal dominance with every other gene that is possible at that locus.
Stefan it should read mutant allele

and mutant gene

trabots

The locus is named the Blue locus however every allele that can be on that locus has equal dominance with every other gene that is possible at that locus.

Stefan it should read mutant allele

trabots

Parblues behave as codominant respective to other parblues.

Recio, that should read Parblues behave as co-dominant to other Parblues AND Blue and vice versa.

trabots

i haven't written blue birds. I wrote "blue series" birds which should read as "birds with blue base color". Sorry for confusion. But Stefan that is the point, if a bird is a Blue series it has two Blue genes at the Blue locus and that bird has nil psitticins. A bird with only o...

trabots

The puzzle is that homozygous parblues should be identifiable right away

By the time you need to pair them up for breeding you will know whether df Parblue or not. If this is just an exercise well have fun. If I need a df Parblue I just grab one after its second moult and breed 100% ParblueBlues.

trabots

if Lutino removes every melanin ... how could a SL-ino Cinnamon show any melanin? Thus lutino and cinnamon must be alleles of the same gene and not different mutations. .... so things are not that easy. Recio you have added another mutation and therefore due to x-over or whatever the relationship, ...

trabots

And some more "blue series" emerald alexandrines:

Stefan, how can they be Blue birds when they have obvious psitticins? These certainly look more like our EmeraldBlue IRNs.

trabots

However, we have no guarantees to which birds are heterozygous and which are homozygous parblues. Johan, what is the point when they are easily distinguishable, some early some not until their 2nd moult. df Turquoise, TurquoiseBlue http://i1305.photobucket.com/albums/s541/Trabots/Trabots%20IRNs/Tur...

trabots

To me the pic of the emerald cock IRN posted by you earlier is a Blue Emerald Molussus, the image I have posted of an EmeraldBlue has obvious psitticin in its feathers. Yes or no? If yes it cannot be an Emerald Blue as Blue by definition removes all psitticins. If there is a Green Emerald in Alex t...

trabots

Willy could you please elaborate on why you think that the Alex and IRN Emerald mutations are different- of images I have seen, I saw no notable differences? To me they were just like say comparing a Wildtype Alex and IRN together- looking very much the same in colour. That is my point, the Alex an...

trabots

Shey, Ron assures me that is happening, hopefully alongside a Dark Green and a Violet Green as well.

trabots

Great that you are a thinker Mike, like Ben said, great to have you aboard. :idea: What we keep forgetting is that the homozygous Blue mutation on its own removes ALL psitticins in each and every other mutation that we know of. Why then if Emerald is dominant does this not happen? A SF Emerald Blue...

trabots

Thank you for the pics ... but my questions remains : is the chick nails colour darker than his father's nails? If rigth now the colour is already darker it would point to Deep as a melanistic mutation. If not yet ... let's wait and see a bit later. I have seen various shades of nail and feet colou...

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